herding question (puppy)

[luvmybc's]

Hi-i have a 3 and a half month old puppy that is going to be a future herding dog. She has only been on stock about 4 times, and for no more than 4 or 5 minutes. She (i guess the best way to decribe her) is "high strung"...gets excited very easily and loves to run at top speed. My older bc, it just plain laidback in general, very calm and steady dog (when on stock... he doesnt ever ever break to "kill" the sheep or bite them).

 

There are some dogs at practice that when put on a down, they cant contain themselves and all the sudden will break after the sheep..wanting to chase them. My question is that is this just a problem with the trainer or the dog? do some dogs just have more sense about the stock and therefore slow down and become steady? I know that she still is a pup and all the energy will slowly die off, but i have to admit that she is different than my male bc, more active, quicker and a non stop dog. I just hope that with the correct training and obedience, i can handle her. Im new in the herding world so please, if i have the wrong view of this just tell me politely.LOL

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

Not even four months is way too young to do any worrying at all about your pup's future abilities on sheep!

 

I've known dogs that after just a few lessons could show great impulse control around the sheep. Sometimes it's a sign of mental maturity and stock sense, and sometimes it's just a sign of a lack of real interest in the stock. Likewise, the overwhelming desire to chase can be good or it can be something that is never overcome to any satisfaction.

 

But it's not time to be asking your pup to show restraint around the stock. Rather, this is when most people simply socialize the pup, get it used to fair and appropriate corrections, and teach simple things like recalls.

 

It's fun to briefly put babies on stock that is very easy for babies to handle (slow ducks or very dog broke lambs), but other than that it's just too much pressure. Your pup can learn to chase and that's a hard one to unlearn. I learned that lesson!

 

Steve and I were just talking today about how easy it is to teach your dog a bad habit. My dog's ability to hold a single confidently got screwed up through being put in a particular situation just a few times. These dogs learn fast - they're bred to do so - and they are also genetically encoded to hold on to lessons learned like lichen on a rock.

[Jodi]

Good post, Rebecca. I agree. Too many things can go wrong when they are this young. Things that they may never grow out of. If the human's timing is off by just a couple of seconds, puppy can get slammed courtesy of the ewe's hard head ... and may never want to go near another big white fluffy thing again. I've seen it happen. I've got two 4 1/2 month old pups here now, and besides playing and introducing new things, we're just working on a solid down and a solid recall -- two commands I consider a vital part of their lives. I'm not in any hurry to start training them on stock. We have plenty of time for that.

 

Jodi

[Pipedream Farm]

First off, in my mind your pup is likely too young to do much (if anything) on sheep.

 

Second I'd like to get more details about what you're doing at "practice" with your pup. For some reason I got the mental image of you doing down stay practice in view of the sheep, is this correct?

 

Mark

[luvmybc's]

what im doing at practice is with my older bc (he's 6), Gypsy (the puppy) comes along for the ride. The lady that runs the place had a litter of border collie puppies and we took one, so every time we go to practice (once a week b/c its a long drive) she puts a few of her puppies, along with mine on sheep (not at the same time). Like i said theres no obedience or anything when shes out there. Its mainly for the dog to get comfortable around sheep, and also its only for about 4-5 minutes (she's on a shrot line).

Of course i know that shes not supposed to be doing anything serious on sheep...she's way too young and i totally agree with you all on that fact. All's im doing is getting her introduced to sheep, not training her on sheep. Im sorry if this came out rude, i really dont want you all to think that she's actually "working" on sheep at this young of age.

[steve clendenin]

Of course i know that shes not supposed to be doing anything serious on sheep...she's way too young and i totally agree with you all on that fact. All's im doing is getting her introduced to sheep, not training her on sheep. Im sorry if this came out rude, i really dont want you all to think that she's actually "working" on sheep at this young of age

You are training the pup evrytime you do anything with her. I have seen too many you pups that have learned bad haits that are really hard to teach them the right way when they get old enought to be trained.

Let your pup be a pup just teach it some maners around other people and dogs. She is way to young to take the mental pressure of being on stock at this age.

Becca and I have 5 months old pups that are keen to work now. Every time i walk my pup her wants to go to sheep since they are around every side of my house but I now walk him on a long line try my best not to make him think going to sheep is bad. These dog learn fast whether it is what you want them to lear or what you don't want them to learn. So be carefull what you do with your pup. But it is your pup so do what you think is right for you

[luvmybc's]

alright, i'll just try to keep her at home, or if she does come with us she won't go on sheep.

 

So, around 5-6 months is when its safe and ok to take your pup on sheep?

[Taffy]

I'm sorry to butt in here but I was wondering if any of you could answer a question for me. My pup is 4 months old and we've only had her for a few days. We have free range chickens and ducks on certain areas of our property and she wants to chase them in a very bad way. I would love to be able to control this as she gets older and starts listening to me better so we can herd ducks. My question is, is it okay now to walk her around them on a leash but not let her chase them or would it be better to just keep her away from them all together?

[luvmybc's]

hey that's a good question. We have free roaming chickens and Gypsy is constantly wanting to go chase them. So i guess im wondering what to do too!

[Great Oak Farm]

Put your pup on a light line & walk up to the chickens. At the first sign of inappropriate behavior, snap the lead & say "NO!" Do not let the pup near the chickens unless it is on the lead. When it ignores the chickens, drop the lead but leave it attached & remain vigilante.

 

I have 12 BC's, all of which know to leave the free-ranging chickens alone. I won't say there have never been incidences of relapse, but mostly with pups & foster rescue dogs that I've trusted prematurely.

 

Occassionaly a more sensitive pup will be a little leery when I introduce it to stock. After a lifetime (theirs) of being told NO chasing chickens, cats, or horses, they are sometimes understandably suspicious of a set-up. "This has GOT to against the rules, too!" But, they all come around.

 

I don't think any pup is up to real training on stock before 8 or 9 months, and then only the more precocious individuals. I agree with Steve entirely! Any time you let a dog do something twice on stock, you have trained him to do that...

[steve clendenin]

Kay I hate to disagree with you but gerking a line to a pup and telling it no when it want to do what it is breed to do will take away something you will never get back. Atrue desire to work. I have had too miny dogs brougth to me to train that would not try to go to stock because this had been done to them. I could tell the dog wanted to work but was afaird to do it because they had been told no too many times.

Keep the pup away from stock until it is ready to be trained. You might get the pup to work but it never never will be what it would have been if it had never been told no when it wanted to go to stock.

I can not understand why people can't let a pup be a pup and grow up and when it becomes a young dog at about a year old and train it to work.

Again I will say theey are your pups do what ever you want to with them, but for me I can let mine grow up. I was given this adivice about 20 years ago by Jack Knox and I have found it to be great advice.

[Taffy]

Thank you so much Kay, I really appreciate your advice. I thought she should be taught similar to what you described but I wasn't sure. Now that I know we can work on it. I'll let you know how we progress.

[Maralynn]

My BC was given to me because she would not work for her first owner. He had sharply corrected her when she was starting to work(she had grabbed a lambs ear and torn it). After that she would not do anything with sheep for him.

She has done well for me after a lot of confidence building work.

 

Please pay attention to what Steve is saying!

[Taffy]

I just read your reply Steve and I have another question for you. If I keep her away from the chickens and ducks until she is ready to really work will it be equally as hard on her to see them through our fence? I guess what my main question is can I still take her with me to do morning and afternoon chores if the chickens are penned up or will even seeing them in their fences be to much.

 

I'm just trying to decide which approach will work best for our family. I never plan on doing any herding for competition or anything just some fun on our farm and something to make Taffy happy.

[steve clendenin]

I'm just trying to decide which approach will work best for our family. I never plan on doing any herding for competition or anything just some fun on our farm and something to make Taffy happy.

IF YOU ARE NOT PLANING ON TEACHING HER TO WORK LIVESTOCK THEN DOING WHAT KAY SAID WILL KEEP HER FROM BOTHERING YOU CHICKEN AND WHAT EVER ELSE YOU HAVE.

[Great Oak Farm]

Hey Steve

 

I see your point. Guess i saw it as cats & chickens aren't stock to me any more than moving vehicles or running children.

[steve clendenin]

Kay in MHO I think these dogs are smart enought too know the diferance between a vehicle and a live animal.

To correct a pup from chasing a vehicle I get in my vehicle and start to move it slowly and when the pup starts to chase I correct it to the point it thinks I going to kill it. I have only had to do one pup twice. They don't want anything to do with a vehicle after that. Mine will move away from any moving vehicle. Which is what I want them to do.

But I will never correct a pup for going to stock. If I'm walking my pup off line and it goes to stock I calmly tell it that will do and it will normally come back to me, if it does not I walk to where it is and pick it up by the scuff and walk slowly back to where I was when I ask it to come to me telling calmly that will do over and over until I get back to where I was standing when I asked it the first time. You might have to do this a couple of times but I promise you it will start coming to you when you ask it to. They will never forget it and they will always come when asked as long as they are with you.

[Taffy]

I may be okay teaching her to come to me when I call her and going about it that way. I have only had her for 2 days so she's not listening to me the absolute best yet although she is already doing MUCH better then she was before. I think for now I'll keep her away from them until she's reliably responding to me and then see how it goes.

[snook]

So I just want to clarify, don't do any herding lessons or put pups in with livestock until they are at least a year old?

I had taken Moose to an intro lesson and the trainer told me that there is a small window for herding intinct and if you miss it that's it. Is this true?

 

Thank You

Mandy

[steve clendenin]

I had taken Moose to an intro lesson and the trainer told me that there is a small window for herding intinct and if you miss it that's it. Is this true?

I have trained dogs on sheep from 6 months old to 5 years old. I don't think age has a lot to do with training.

The important thing to remember try to start a young dog it must be able to take the mental pressure. I will never start another 6 months old pup again, I was lucky when I started my Jan at that age. She ran well until the age of 12 and I think her hearing is starting to go.

To futher support my thinking I have seen a lot of Nursery dogs running great at 18 months to almost 3 years old. Then you don't see the dog making it to open because they get burned out from the training pressure.

I would rather wait to start a pup at about a year old (it depends on the pup and you being able to read it to see if it is ready to take the pressure of training )and the pup grows up to work for me 10 to 12 years then a hot shot young dog that is burned out at 3 years old.

Good dogs are to hard to come by and a lot of work training them for them to burn out at a young age.

There is not a answer as to when to start a dog it is more of an art then a science. There is more gray areas then black and white working with these dogs.

[prosperia]

I was wondering,

I plan on attending the highland occasional,

and taking my 4mo. old pup with me. Is it

alright for her to watch? How would the more

experienced folks on this board handle the

situation?

I emailed to ask about whether or not I could bring her and was told I could as long as she was mannerly.

I just dont want to screw up. From reading

some of these posts, it seems pretty easy to do.

[tucknjill]

You will be fine to bring your puppy to watch....see you there!

[juliepoudrier]

Another take on the puppies and chickens thing. (Caveat: I have raised just one pup, the rest of my dogs were adults when I got them.) I didn't put her on a leash and specifically correct her for looking at the chickens or wanting to get them, but she understood from early on what "no" meant, whether applied to cats, chickens, or inanimate objects. The chickens are free-range during the day and all of my dogs understand that they are not to be bothered when we are all out in the yard together. She is happy to work sheep, goats, and cattle, but if you try to get her to work chickens, she just looks around as if to say, "Well, where's the stock?" I can't say if that's because she wasn't allowed to chase/harrass them as a pup or not. Maybe so, but not being allowed to bother the chickens didn't affect her desire to work other stock even if it did affect her desire to work chickens. Two of my dogs will work poultry, and the rest refuse to see them as anything that needs working.

 

J.

[steve clendenin]

After thinking this over go ahead and stop your pups from look or working anything you don't want them to work

[jill & ron]

Steve, you said that To stop a pup from chasing a vehicle, you get in and start to move the vehicle very slowly, when the pup chases you correct it to the point it thinks you are about to kill it. What do you use as correction, verbal, physical, ???