How to teach a 'stop' at a distance...

[arf2184]

So last week in 'Prep School' class, we started training a down at a distance (or attempting to). This is a clicker class. How our trainer has us teaching this is using a rug. We tell the dog down, the dog must go into a down with elbows on the rug. We click when the dog downs, toss a treat past the dog so they have to get up to go get it and then repeat. The dog is supposed to continue to down on the rug while the handler gradually increases distance away from the rug. The long term goal is to have the dog go into a down regardless of how far away they are or what they are doing.

 

Meg and I are struggling a bit with this. If Meg is stationary, it doesn't matter how far away I am. I say down (no hand signal required) and she does it. So the distance isn't really the problem. Our trouble comes when she is moving towards me. She will continue coming towards me and then go into a down when she gets right in front of me.

 

Last week, our trainer had me move towards Meg to sort of body block her and keep her on the rug, then I step back and say down. It works because when I move towards her she stops and waits to see what I'm going to do. Then from her already stationary position, she'll go into a down when I ask. But after a week of doing this, we still haven't made any progress at getting her to stop on her own and go into a down without my having to block her from coming all the way to me. She knows stay (while in a sit, down or stand), but if I say 'stay' while she is moving, I get the same thing...she'll come all the way to me first, then 'stay' in front of me.

 

So I think what I may need to do is first teach her to 'stop' at a distance (especially 'stop moving towards me'). I'm not sure how to do this though. Any suggestions?

 

I was going to ask the trainer today, but since 4 out of the 6 dogs in class missed last week (owners were out sick), she was pretty busy helping everyone else get caught up today.

[topnotchdog]

So the distance isn't really the problem. Our trouble comes when she is moving towards me. She will continue coming towards me and then go into a down when she gets right in front of me.

 

 

You can clear that up for her by showing her she doesn't have to be right in front of you to "down" (even if she's moving) by preventing her forward movement. Start close up again, and use a barrier like a baby gate or (better yet) an x-pen. She can move freely within her space on her side, and you on yours.

 

Cue your "down" from just the other side of the gate, C/T (with elbows down). Release. Gradually ping pong your way back to the distance you want. Fade the gate (or open the x-pen door) by starting in close again, increasing the distance, always rewarding in position. You won't need the gate after about two or three training sessions, it's pretty cool.

 

Since you are using a marker (clicker), I highly recommend taking advantage of that by clicking when her elbows hit, then walking in and feeding her in the desired position. Once she understands what she is supposed to be doing, then you can mix things up by tossing the treat out behind her (on occasion). Since you want more of "down on elbows," that is the position that should be reinforced at this stage. (Once she has the hang of it, you can toss things behind her, release her to surprises planted behind her, cue her into a new stationary position from the down, etc. to mix things up). It is also very fun & useful to get your aim so good that you can land a treat or a toy between her front legs (I would practice that without her, just put something like a small plate on the floor as a target).

 

Be on the alert for a common trainer reaction when the dog does not get into the position you want, as quickly as you want, or from the exact spot you want: if you repeat your cue, give your release word, or come back to the dog to reposition and reward, you are probably inadvertently reinforcing what you don't want. Be very black and white on what you reinforce and what you don't, because you will get more of what you reinforce, whether you meant to or not.

 

Another thing you might consider is making doubly sure your "down" is under stimulus control. Does she understand the cue well enough to do it if you're sitting on the floor? If your face is covered? If you have your back to her (use a mirror)? If you're out of sight behind a tree?

 

I think using a mat or body pressure can work for lots of dogs. They can also be additional cues or prompts that the dog (or trainer) may come to rely on and are harder to fade (training on livestock may be a different story). The gate barrier to movement doesn't seem to require much in the way of fading because the light bulb goes off quickly.

 

Happy training!

B.

[shysheperdess]

Well, I can give you some tips similar to building a foundation for the "drop on recall" obedience exercise. Where the dog is coming at you for a lightning fast recall and on either voice or hand signal the dog must drop immediately where told no questions asked...and stay there until it is called again..

 

Your training a couple of different things, a speedy drop, dog being comfortable working away from you,and the actuall stay in the position until it is released or called again!! Once my dogs get this exercise they LOVE to work on it and we make it a super fun game

 

I usually start out with the teaching the dog that it's OK to be away from you...NO CREEPING allowed!!! I build on a standard down stay exercise. I put the dog in the down-stay, starting out in small incriments, moving around and away from the dog, going back every few seconds to give a small tidbit for NOT moving. Gradually increasing distractions, and distance, always going back praising and rewarding for the dog NOT moving....if that pup moves even an INCH forward with ther paw I physicly put them RIGHT back where they were...Usually if the dog moves a paw forward a bit I'll ever so slightly touch the tip of there paw with my foot..the dog almost always jumps back. Put them back in the down and start over....you really need to get the point across that when sked to be in a position no forward movement is ok...

 

Another thing we use is a piece of chicken wire folded in half...I personally don't like using anything I have to really fade out eventually but this is small enough and invisible enough that it's not that hard to do. You put it in front of the dog during the stay as a general barrier...it's more useful later on when you can place it somewhere, time it right and ask the dog for a down while moving in front of the wire...

 

I also teach my dogs a back up....I can explain how to do this also...but when I am polishing my more advanced dogs...if they don't drop as fast as I would like or inch forward at all I have them "back up" quite a few steps which gets the point across really well and works like a charm

 

It also helps to teach a "fold back" down...where the dog rocks back into the down instead of sitting then down....helps stop that forward movement and keeps things more collected..

 

SO...once your dog is comfortable with downing and styaing put while you are at a distance I will start up a game(now I train for a speedy down I mean HIT the deck when you get the signal but I guess that's not needed in this situation but could be helpful)I start playing with the dog,or just let them meander around not TO far from me at first maybe 10 feet at the most, give the down command...if they come towards me or incch towards me I go take them and physicly put them at the place where I asked them for the down....treats in between the front paws, praise, then break and repeat....the dog will catch on rather quick to your game..When you go put the dog physicly where you asked for the down don't say anything and as soon as you get them in the down position...treats in between the front paws, praise them!! When they do start downing right where you tell them to remind them to stay until you can walk over to them..treat...then praise and then break and play.

 

Anyway this gets to be QUITE fun and my dogs LOVE it!! Once they get the idea we really get things charged up...almost like a FREEZE game for kids!!! We play fetch get charged up but when I say "DROP!" They hit the deck and freeze until I rush over, and give a treat or tug with them!! Then release them and the game continues!!!

 

My dogs can be half a mile away and down when I give the word.....which is also helpful while we work sheep to

[Root Beer]

Meg and I are struggling a bit with this. If Meg is stationary, it doesn't matter how far away I am. I say down (no hand signal required) and she does it. So the distance isn't really the problem. Our trouble comes when she is moving towards me. She will continue coming towards me and then go into a down when she gets right in front of me.

 

Last week, our trainer had me move towards Meg to sort of body block her and keep her on the rug, then I step back and say down. It works because when I move towards her she stops and waits to see what I'm going to do. Then from her already stationary position, she'll go into a down when I ask. But after a week of doing this, we still haven't made any progress at getting her to stop on her own and go into a down without my having to block her from coming all the way to me. She knows stay (while in a sit, down or stand), but if I say 'stay' while she is moving, I get the same thing...she'll come all the way to me first, then 'stay' in front of me.

 

So I think what I may need to do is first teach her to 'stop' at a distance (especially 'stop moving towards me'). I'm not sure how to do this though. Any suggestions?

 

There are two ways that I have approached this. One was to incorporate a gate into the picture with the mat. I added a treat on the mat, as well, to get my dog into the correct position to cue the down initially. After doing that a few times, it was not necessary to have the treat there.

 

Once he had practiced moving forward to the mat, lying down, and getting clicked for it for a couple of sessions, I started to fade the gate by using lower barriers and smaller items to indicate the "stop line". After doing that for a bit, I no longer needed the gate to get a moving down on mat.

 

This is how I taught Dean to down on mat without creeping off of it and it worked very well. He can do it as a recall with the down on mat in between, or as a send to the mat from any position.

 

The other approach - the one by which I taught Speedy his down on recall - was to incorporate a target box that actually had food in it. First I taught him down with it between his front paws. I would click when he was down and then I would walk to the target box to get a treat for the him. One nice thing about that is that he really learned to hold the down until released since I did a lot of moving once he was down. I would move in to get the treat and give it to him, then I would move back to my original position to release him to the rest of the recall. Once he had that part, I started to move the target box away and he had to move toward it before being cued to down. It worked beautifully.

 

I eventually faded this to a flat target and then removed it altogether.

 

Another nice thing about the target box approach is that it encourages the elbows first down. This is something Speedy does much better than Dean and I believe the target box had a lot to do with that. Time to do some target box work with Dean! That would be a nice winter training project.

[arf2184]

Thank you! Those are some very good ideas; I'm not sure which to try first.

 

I didn't even think to use a target. We already use a target for agility.

 

I like the 'Freeze' game. Great way to practice.

 

Another thing you might consider is making doubly sure your "down" is under stimulus control. Does she understand the cue well enough to do it if you're sitting on the floor? If your face is covered? If you have your back to her (use a mirror)? If you're out of sight behind a tree?

 

Will do. She doesn't seem to care what position I'm in (sitting, standing, laying) but I don't know that she would 'down' if she couldn't see me/my face.

[topnotchdog]

 

 

Will do. She doesn't seem to care what position I'm in (sitting, standing, laying) but I don't know that she would 'down' if she couldn't see me/my face.

 

That sounds great. I meant to mention to also check if she'll do it if she were walking along with you. That is an eye-opening one to teach so she'll realize, 'Hey, I can go right into a stationary position even if I'm moving or my person keeps moving.' This will get her comfortable 'downing' from movement, and lead you right to that freeze game shysheperdess suggested.

 

B.

[shysheperdess]

I would not recomend training a "drop on recall" excersise with a mat at all. If you are looking to train a "go to your place" kind of command where you want to the dog to be comfortable going away from you and to a specific spot and stay there, then what Root Beer described would be a perfect example of how to do that.

 

Using a Mat, or in some cases a wooden box CAN be an aid in teaching a fold back down, which proves to be crucial when training a competitive drop on recall and almost always taught from puppy-hood for people who intend to compete in obedience trials...mostly for the signal factor.

 

We have just found that using a gate or barrier tends to not transfer over, the dog isn't really thinking about what it needs to do and respond quickly to your command and stay there no matter where asked. The dog can become to reliant on you and seeing a physical barrier or marker which usually puts you back at square one when phasing it out..Plus you don't want to have to haul some sort of gate or barrier with you everywhere you want to go and enforce or work on your drop.Plus you don't really want the dog to be stopping by SEEING a physical barrier, which is why the chicken wire can be helpful...they can't see it so well but will FEEL it if they don't respond immediatly to your drop command....enought to make them think. Plus dropping them behind a gate/barrier requires excellent timing on your part for the drop and is less fun...the dog will know what the exercise is before you even begin...that's why I like the spontanious nature of the FREEZE game and it transfers over beautifuly to tweak for a competitive drop on recall and practical life situations....

 

A good way also to make the FREEZE game fun and easy, ONCE you get there with working on your immediate drops, stays and no creeping, is using eiher PB captain crunch, kix or cheese puffs and throwing them...the dogs love it and it gets them jazzed up, the treats roll and it's a great way to get the dog far away from you!!! So you gra a hand full....chuck one the dog will go running and chasing it AND eating it then when the dog spins around to head back you drop it...if the dog drops immediatly...you remind them to stay and go give them there yummy rolly treat right inbetween there front legs, release and continue...For competition purposes I actually incorporate recalls in this exercise ad swtich up recalls and drops...When I aski the dog for a recall I throw the rolling trest inbetween my legs....then continue to drop them where ever and rewarding as necessary...It becomes QUITE fun and the dogs LOVE it!! Plus it gets lighning fast drops at a dead run...and if you want it..strait and fast recalls!!!

[Root Beer]

I would not recomend training a "drop on recall" excersise with a mat at all. If you are looking to train a "go to your place" kind of command where you want to the dog to be comfortable going away from you and to a specific spot and stay there, then what Root Beer described would be a perfect example of how to do that.

 

Personally, I do prefer the target box method to the mat for a drop on recall, or any sort of distance down. Still, if I were in a class where the instructor wanted us to use a mat, I would go with it in class. I would probably work with the target box concurrently at home to really help the dog get the point. I would place the target box on the mat sometimes, and on the bare floor at others so the dog knows it is going to change up. Until the target box is no longer needed, of course.

 

I've not had problems with fading things like mats and targets, so my preference isn't for that reason. But a lot of the work that I do involves use of the mat for a very specific purpose (as a place for the dog to relax, focus, or as a safe zone, if needed). Because of that I don't tend to use the mat to train exercises or moves.

 

One exception - Maddie uses the mat for her contacts in Agility class. That was just the best way for her, so it's what we do. She doesn't need a safe zone, so I don't mind more neutral use of the mat with her.

[shysheperdess]

RB, i appreciate your creativity but sometimes feel you make things harder than they have to be .... if the owner is capable of teaching a proper stay to a dog there is absolutely no need for a "target box"...what we I believe we are asking for based on the original post is for the dog to lie down, no matter where asked, and stay there until released....

 

What you are looking for in a drop on recall is a speedy drop back down with out question upon signal/voice and to STAY there no matter where they are..until released into your next command and or just as a release from the exercise....I've seen alot of people mess around with alot of gimmicks teaching this exercise that NEVER tend to transfer over to a nice drop when asked or competitive drop on recall...we've found the best way to make it clear to the dog what you"re asking is simply physicaly putting the dog back to the spot where they did not drop where asked OR making them aware of what they are actually doing with there bodies and paws...namely when they creep or fidget you simply touch the offending foot, or have them back up until they are back to or past the point where your asked for a drop, then start again....find it gets them thinking...or go back to tweaking the speediness of the drop itself...

 

To the OP...can I ask just outta curiousity are you going to be using this training for?? A future competitive drop on recall, stock work, or just a "safe command" kinda, so you have the ability to drop the dog and have it stay there no matter what"s going on??

 

 

I think you have great ideas RB though for pet people, and teaching people a "go to your place" command with a mat, and other usefull exercises using a mat can be very helful....

[Root Beer]

RB, i appreciate your creativity but sometimes feel you make things harder than they have to be .... if the owner is capable of teaching a proper stay to a dog there is absolutely no need for a "target box"...what we I believe we are asking for based on the original post is for the dog to lie down, no matter where asked, and stay there until released....

 

Your interpretations of the approaches that I use and have success with are always amusing. There is absolutely nothing hard about using a target box in this context, nor in any that I've used it for. It's ridiculously simple, actually.

 

The original poster was asking for input on teaching a moving down at a distance in the context of a clicker class. The suggestion that I provided is very appropriate for training in such a context. And I have gotten great results with it and seen others do so, as well, regardless of how much you poo-poo or insist it cannot be done.

 

You don't like it. No surprise there. Why not live and let live for a change. You made your suggestion. I made mine. Why not let the OP take the info we've all suggested, think for his or herself, and go have fun with it?

 

If you want to discuss this further, why don't we take it private?

[shysheperdess]

I did not say that I was not familiar with teaching the "drop on recall" with barriers/gates and what not...I have just found with my experience that training using these ways, was in effective or did not hold up and methods as he ones I described had to be used anyway.....I am trying to help the OP with, in my experience works better and will also carry over into any environment..

 

Training is about communication and the relationship you have with your dog...you need to make things as clear to the dog as possible...and yes some kind of "correction" is going to need to come into play. It's not going to HURT the dog it"s going to communicate to the dog that what they are doing is not correct..whether it be a body block, touching the toes or simply physicaly putting the dog back where it needs to be..

 

The BIGGEST problem with dropping a a down, drop on recall, etc is the CREEPING. You get the dog working close to you, building a relationship with you and everything is done close, so to them to ask for distance work can be quite difficult. That's why we find working on stays at a distanceand getting them comfortable with being away from you before asking for any kind of movement works well. Building a foundation, rewarding them and getting them used to the idea of being comfortable being away from you in a training environment..I would make stays at a distance a "high value" exercise. Praise or an extra special treat for staying at a distance....allow NO forward movement!!!

 

 

Then begin teaching a fast drop, stressing NO forward movement!!! GRADUALLY increase distance on leash. Remind the dog to stay untilyou can get there and give a "high value" treat, praise,release. The key being verbally correcting or catching the forward movement as soon as it happens...verbal "ah" or what not, and non emotionally put the dog back where you originaly put it, or if it"s not up touch it's paw or back it up....try again...trust me...the dog will get it..

 

Body blocking may work to but you need to catch the dog moving or getting up right when it happen...if you let the dog come all the way to you before you let the dog know they have done something wrong you have waited to long!!!!

[Root Beer]

Training is about communication and the relationship you have with your dog...you need to make things as clear to the dog as possible...

 

I certainly agree that training is about communication and relationship with the dog. And that things need to be clear. I always strive to be as clear as possible when teaching my dog a new behavior or concept, or when helping my dog become more fluent with a behavior or concept that he or she already knows. I would imagine that all trainers, regardless of chosen approach, experience, or goals seriously strive to make things as clear as possible for the dog.

 

In looking beyond the picture of your own experience, it might be worth taking into account that chances are in a clicker based class, the clicker is going to be used heavily in the process of making things clear to the dog and assisting the dog through the learning process. And, of course, in a good clicker class, there is going to be as much, if not more, emphasis on the handler learning the skills that he or she needs to use the clicker to train effectively as there is on what the dog learns.

 

Of course, I can't speak for all clicker based classes and I don't know anything about the one that the OP is taking, beyond what he or she has posted.

 

The BIGGEST problem with dropping a a down, drop on recall, etc is the CREEPING.

 

It is interesting that you say that. In good clicker training (the kind where effective training happens), teaching the dog is not approached from the point of view of problems. The emphasis is on what the dog is being taught to do.

 

A dog that clearly understands that a certain cue means "stop, drop, and stay" will not be creeping. Staying and creeping are not going to happen at the same time. The goal is not "not creep", but it is "stop, drop, and stay". Does that make sense?

 

You and I could debate whether or not a dog can really learn a rock solid down stay through clicker training, but that really comes down to differing perspectives on how dogs learn. And on differing viewpoints on how we can effectively communicate with dogs in the context of training. I think that would be an interesting discussion if it were possible to have it without things turning personal. But I believe it really is beyond the scope of this topic.

[shysheperdess]

RB- "You and I could debate whether or not a dog can really learn a rock solid down stay through clicker training, but that really comes down to differing perspectives on how dogs learn."

 

Actually I would have to disagree with this statement. It has less to do with our different perspectives on how dogs learn and more to do on the results achieved. There is a reason why I don't know any, and have rarely heard of top obedience trainers using clicker training exclusively to train a drop on recall, or a reliable down stay. I,as usual, definetly am not dis-crediting clicker training and know trainers I respect highly who use it for puppies or to shape certain behaviors,or in certain contexts just not exclusivley and in this type of exercise. And I try my best to respect people who choose to use soley clicker-based training for there pets, although the situation the OP describes is the exact reason why we see so many people through our doors with problems after attending clicker based classes.

 

I am also trying to take into account that training with a clicker takes some skill on timing and such and many of the people we end up helping just didn't have the proper instruction.

 

I am also certain that clicker-based classes doesn't mean "positive only" training as the instructor was using body blocking in the class. That tells me a couple things...first the timing is way off, as you don't want the dog actually getting up and coming towards you out of a down stay and needing to be "body blocked" back onto the mat. I am sure the dog is confused, if the dog gets up simply put it back where it needs to be, praise for the right position and start over.Second, that the instructor is not apposed to correction.....

 

Anyway, now the drop on recall or stay exercises are a clear example of where I do NOT believe "positive only" training can work. It needs to be clear to the dog that there something negative will happen if they move, period. As a trainer you need to have an effective "tool basket" when communicating and working with the your dog. What do you want the end product to look like?? How are you going to get there with your dog?? How are you going to teach this? What are you going to do if the dog doesn't comply?

 

To me, physicaly moving the dog, touching his toes or teaching the back up are not hurting my dog, but they are something that is momentarily un-pleasant. Something that happens when they don't make the right choice and to help make it clear what is right and believe me it doesn't take long. You can see the wheels turning and when the dog gets it right it's HUGE!!I use largely motivatinal techniques also along with a correction when necessary but my dogs are always having fun. Not sulking or sad or having hurt feelings because they got there paws touched..

[Root Beer]

RB- "You and I could debate whether or not a dog can really learn a rock solid down stay through clicker training, but that really comes down to differing perspectives on how dogs learn."

 

Actually I would have to disagree with this statement. It has less to do with our different perspectives on how dogs learn and more to do on the results achieved.

 

And that would be another point on which we would disagree. Based on your previous posts and on the disagreements that you and I have had in the past, I would say that our most fundamental difference is our understanding of how dogs learn. And on differing viewpoints on how we can effectively communicate with dogs in the context of training.

 

Results are important to me - and to all good reinforcement trainers. A method, technique, or approach is worthless if it does not bring about a desired result. No trainer, regardless of method, is going to invest time and work into a training process that is doomed to fail. Naysayers might believe certain methods are doomed to fail, but that does not deter those who use them with success and get the desired results.

 

There is a reason why I don't know any, and have rarely heard of top obedience trainers using clicker training exclusively to train a drop on recall, or a reliable down stay.

 

I'd say they are missing out on some truly amazing training experiences. I know my saying that won't sit well with you, but it is my opinion.

 

I,as usual, definetly am not dis-crediting clicker training and know trainers I respect highly who use it for puppies or to shape certain behaviors,or in certain contexts just not exclusivley and in this type of exercise. And I try my best to respect people who choose to use soley clicker-based training for there pets, although the situation the OP describes is the exact reason why we see so many people through our doors with problems after attending clicker based classes.

 

Please send them my way. I think I would enjoy working with them a lot more than the people who come to me with problems after attending correction based classes. Not that I don't enjoy working with those folks. But it is so much easier to make progress with people whose previous experience has been reinforcement based. In my experience, I have found that they tend to be much more open to trying new things and tailoring their training to the needs of their dogs.

 

Anyway, now the drop on recall or stay exercises are a clear example of where I do NOT believe "positive only" training can work. It needs to be clear to the dog that there something negative will happen if they move, period.

 

That's an excellent concrete example of our difference of point of view on how dogs learn. You are effectively saying that you hold it to be true that a dog can only learn to drop on recall or stay if something negative happens if they move.

 

I (and reinforcement trainers who have a far more extensive track record of results than I do) hold it to be true that a dog can learn a drop on recall or stay - reliably - by learning that excellent things happen if they remain in the stay (amid distraction, etc. etc.)

 

The results only show what has been learned. Not the path through which the dog has learned. Therein lies the difference.

 

As a trainer you need to have an effective "tool basket" when communicating and working with the your dog. What do you want the end product to look like?? How are you going to get there with your dog?? How are you going to teach this? What are you going to do if the dog doesn't comply?

 

We agree on that. Granted, there are tools that I would use that you would not. There are tools you would use that I would not. And there are some tools that both of us would use. And probably tools that neither of us would use.

 

A reinforcement trainer makes the same decisions that you outline above. The answer to the questions would probably differ somewhat from at least some of yours. But deciding what approach to use to communicate to the dog, what the end result should look like, how to get there with the dog, how to teach it, and what to do if things don't go as initially planned are certainly an important part of any and all types of training.

 

To me, physicaly moving the dog, touching his toes or teaching the back up are not hurting my dog, but they are something that is momentarily un-pleasant. Something that happens when they don't make the right choice and to help make it clear what is right and believe me it doesn't take long. You can see the wheels turning and when the dog gets it right it's HUGE!!I use largely motivatinal techniques also along with a correction when necessary but my dogs are always having fun. Not sulking or sad or having hurt feelings because they got there paws touched..

 

And that's your training choice. Mine would be different. Which is why I offered the OP a perspective that was different from yours, to get back on topic for a second. Clicker training also results in dogs whose mental wheels turn and HUGE!! breakthroughs. You believe that corrections are necessary for a dog to learn certain things so you use them. I do not believe they are necessary for a dog to learn so I don't use them (sorry if you are upset or insulted by that, as you have been in the past. It is not a judgment, just a statement that describes my own point of view and choice). I'm not really sure where sulking, hurt feelings, and sadness entered the discussion, but I have yet to see good clicker work (or, bad clicker work for that matter) produce a dog that is sulking, having hurt feelings, or sad because the handler used a clicker.

 

To the OP - I am very sorry that your topic has gone so far off topic. shysheperdess, if you want to continue this line of discussion, why don't we break it out into a separate topic or, better yet, take it to PM? That way if others want to continue to discuss the OP's original topic, they can continue to do so.

[arf2184]

To the OP...can I ask just outta curiousity are you going to be using this training for?? A future competitive drop on recall, stock work, or just a "safe command" kinda, so you have the ability to drop the dog and have it stay there no matter what"s going on??

 

The latter "safe command".

 

We may try stock work at some point too. Meg was a herding flunkie which was one reason given as to why she 'did not work out' in one of her last homes, but I don't know the details. Her last foster mom thinks it may have just been lack of training. We may try it just to see how she does. So a solid down at a distance would come in handy when we do.

 

Meg naturally does a 'fold back' drop (no sit first).

 

I meant to mention to also check if she'll do it if she were walking along with you. That is an eye-opening one to teach so she'll realize, 'Hey, I can go right into a stationary position even if I'm moving or my person keeps moving.' This will get her comfortable 'downing' from movement, and lead you right to that freeze game shysheperdess suggested.

 

I think she will benefit from this so we'll give it a try.

[Journey]

Regardless of where you will use it, yes, the dog needs to understand "stop" in order to drop in place. I too teach my dogs to back up on command. This helps then to see the distance is no big deal. As they get further away, I too start backing up, which doubles the distance quicker. Since this is a clicker class with aversions, I would stay away from any major "props" that will have to be weaned. Keep it simple, teach a back, use your body to encourage and or block, increase distance slowly. Also do stationary drops and increase distance with them. Do drops with your back to her, your side to her, you sitting on the ground....make sure she understands "the"behavior" not a location. Make it a game and don't wean the cookies too soon! Have fun there are many games you can play while teaching this. I am glad to read you taught a collapse down vs the others. Have fun!

[Northof49]

I am not going to try and do a bunch of quotes here - just address some of the comments.

 

I use a clicker in my training, both for lure/reward methods and operant conditioning. I have successfully been training a random down, which I use on stock, agility, obedience and rally obedience and general use for over 20 years. The same way, except 15 years ago I added the clicker to mark what I wanted, and I still have a hell of a down on all my dogs.

 

I also re-train dogs that have had their feet stepped on (this is not addressed to anyone in particular in this thread). The problem I have there is when the handler starts to walk up to the dog, the dog doesn't know when something good is going to happen, or the toes are going to get stepped on, so the dog automatically assumes the worse and gets up out of the way. ALso, they are trying to teach a "drop on recall" instead of just lie down when you are told to.

 

I have never had a problem encouraging a dog to stay away from me - that's easy to do, no matter how valuable the space right in front of us is. I just worked that in an impulse control seminar I was teaching a couple of weekends ago. Teaching wait/stays and random downs. I teach my waits/stays the same way. The biggest problem is people wanting to advance too quickly. However, I go for time before distance, and then I can build up my distance very quickly, because my dogs have no intereste in coming into me - that is all done with positive reinforcement - no punishment.

 

Clickers don't make people better trainers, and the problem with the average Joe dog owner is that they don't want to spend much time training. THey want results with very little training done. I have taught puppy classes for puppies 9 - 6 months of age for over 12 years. What I can sit down and teach a puppy in an hour, takes them at least a week or sometimes even more. I actually spend the time needed, my timing is better and I can tweak on the fly, which most pet owners can't. I teach the use of the clicker and we just use it as a marker for some things, and I do some operant training as well. BUT again, the training is only as good as the trainer and the time put in by the handler and family. I always get in my puppy class "oh, my dog isn't smart enough to learn that" and it never fails, that is the dog that learns the behavour the fastest by shaping it.

 

I have also found it very hard for people to appreciate operant conditioning if they are not at least prepared to explore that with their dog even just by teaching simple tricks, which won't impact on their "basic" training, and they just focus on "failures".

 

II understand punishment/correction based training because I did that in the 1970s and early 80s. I know how it works, how it poisons cues, and which is why I turned away from it. When I first heard of clicker training and saw it, I thought it was a bit hokey, even though I had moved on to positive reinforcement training.

 

Then I said to myself, - if you think it is hokey, you need to explore it, train a dog with it, so you could explain to people why it doesn't work very well - So I started to do that and yeesh, don't ya know - I was totally wrong.

[shysheperdess]

Just to say, I don't know ANYBODY who trains with "correction BASED" training, or anything that resembles the training favored in the 70's and 80's. I think positive rewards and motivation are just as important if not MORE so than a well placed correction. and I am all for using clickers and shaping with pups and dogs learning new concepts, think it's wonderful. I feel that dogs need BOTH positive rewards as well as corrections to learn what we want from them. If you never tell a dog what he's doing wrong, how will he know what you DON'T want him to do? Many purely positive people say "only those behaviors that are rewarded will continue"... they forget that the reward can come from the DOG too, not just from the owner (e.g. self-rewarding behavior, or doing something purely because they like to do it). I think many times the purely positive people also forget that many behaviors that we humans don't like can be self-rewarding for the dog.

 

Having said that with my experience and success in training and competing I think that purely positive people think that the word "correction" equals some terrible mean punishment. Not necessarily - the word "correction" itself just means that I'm giving the dog information to allow him to "correct" his behavior. A correction can be very mild, as long as it's something the dog doesn't like and he wants to stop it from happening.

 

I think corrections are important in some instances as long as they are fair. Fair, meaning that the dog knows how to avoid the correction altogether by doing the exercise correctly, and also how to make the correction stop once its started. It's also fair to apply a correction when a dog understands what you're asking of them, and they just don't do it. For instance teaching the stand for exam....my dog would always creep forward when doing the moving stand, a utility exercise...she hated being picked up. So when she got her stand signal and tried to move forward...I would pick her up and place her back where she was originally. Was it hurting her..nope..did she like it...nope...did she get the idea and now has a flawless moving stand and does it happily now that she understands what I want...yep

 

Think if you were driving somewhere, and your passenger was giving you directions. Your passenger has a map and knows where to go, but you don't. Since you don't know where to go, you are driving around randomly, turning whenever you want. What if your passenger only told you when you turned correctly, but didn't tell you when you turned the wrong way? How long do you think ti would take to get where you're going? It's important to know when you turn correctly as well as when you turn incorrectly.

 

 

 

When I TOUCH not step on my dogs toes if they have creeped forward for an out of site stay or a drop...do they like it..nope..does it hurt them..nope..do they think about what they are doing with there feet...you betcha..does it correct the problem immedietly...you betcha...if dogs didn't learn through cause and effect like this then why have these methods proved to be so succesful???

[Root Beer]

Think if you were driving somewhere, and your passenger was giving you directions. Your passenger has a map and knows where to go, but you don't. Since you don't know where to go, you are driving around randomly, turning whenever you want. What if your passenger only told you when you turned correctly, but didn't tell you when you turned the wrong way? How long do you think ti would take to get where you're going? It's important to know when you turn correctly as well as when you turn incorrectly.

 

I think that this example really demonstrates the pieces of information that you seem to be missing about reinforcement based training. Except in the context of shaping - which is only used in the initial stages of teaching new behaviors by some handlers to some dogs - dogs are given very clear information. They aren't just left to figure every single thing out on their own. In fact, when it is done well, shaping does not leave a dog guessing for very long, nor in a way that is not beneficial to the dog's learning process.

 

Think if you were driving somewhere, and your passenger was giving you directions. The passenger has the map and knows where to go, but you don't. You are not driving around randomly, because the passenger is giving you the information. For example, "Go up to the stop light and turn left. When you pass the car wash on the right, prepare to get on the Interstate." Etc. You have the choice to go the right way or the wrong way. If you go the right way, you get where you are going. If you turn the wrong way, the passenger gives you alternate directions to get back on the right path. So, say you turn right at the light where the passenger said "go left". Now the passenger consults the map and says, "Up ahead there is a traffic circle. Go all the way around and come back the way we just came". Now you have learned the right way to go and it happened because the passenger guided you along, and/or back to, the right path.

 

It was in no way necessary for the passenger to ever say, "you're wrong". It was not necessary for the passenger to make going the wrong way unpleasant for you, even to the slightest degree. You were not left guessing because the passenger did not say you were wrong. You simply learned the right way to go through the directions that were necessary to get you back on the right track once you had gotten off of it.

 

This is a much more accurate characterization of training through reinforcement. The dog is not simply left constantly guessing. In a case where learning has not yet happened and the dog is still in that process, it is up to the handler to provide the dog with information that will help the dog to be successful.

 

If you never tell a dog what he's doing wrong, how will he know what you DON'T want him to do?

 

That's very simple - by learning to do what is right.

 

If a dog learns to sit and stay at a doorway until released, for example, the dog is not doing what you DON'T want him to do (say, run out into potentially dangerous traffic). If the dog learns to sit and stay with rock solid reliability, there need not be any focus on what you DON'T want him to do. He is doing what you want (sit and stay until released), not not doing what you don't want.

 

I think many times the purely positive people also forget that many behaviors that we humans don't like can be self-rewarding for the dog.

 

Reinforcement based trainers don't forget this. We simply approach those behaviors in a different way.

 

For example, running through a door can certainly be "self-rewarding" for a dog. So, instead of leaving it up to the dog to decide when to run through the door, the reinforcement based trainer teaches the dog by giving him permission to go through the door upon release. Now the dog is doing what he wants, but it is no longer "self-rewarding", it is a reward given by the owner/trainer/handler. And it can be quite a powerful reinforcer.

 

Anything that is considered to be "self-rewarding" is something that a human can use as a valuable reinforcer for the dog in the context of training. We use those behaviors to help the dog learn.

 

I don't know where people get the impression that reinforcement based training requires that one just allow the dog to do whatever he or she wants all the time with no structure. When done right, it is highly structured, highly disciplined, and highly effective. It is not at all the willy nilly unstructured guesswork with no point or results that you seem determined to make it out to be.

 

ETA:

 

. . . it's something the dog doesn't like and he wants to stop it from happening.

 

No, reinforcement trainers do not consider all corrections to be some terrible punishment. The way you describe it above is pretty much what I would consider a "correction" - something the dog doesn't like that he wants to stop from happening. And that can vary in degree from very severe to very mild. We are not oblivious to the fact that corrections can be mild.

 

Still, some of us choose not to include corrections in our training. Not even mild ones. We choose to facilitate our dog's learning through other approaches. It is a conscious choice based on consideration of many available options. It is not a choice based on lack of understanding or ignorance.

 

I think Northof49's experiences make that very clear.

[shysheperdess]

Are you under the impression because I choose to use a correction here and there that I am NOT showing the dog what is right?? Did you not catch the

 

And with your driving anaology that seems like a WHOLE lot of running around...soley because you don"t want to experience anything un-pleasant, that's just not realistic. It's not practical for alot of pet owners and just plain doesn't work in relation to the competitive obedience world...period.

 

If I were driving and someone was giving me directions I would think the person would be giving me a great deal of respect in being up-front and clear with me as possible. If I am taking a wrong turn, TELL ME..don't worry about hurting my feelings...we both want the same thing..

 

 

The fact of the matter is, is that life in general isn't "purely positive" RB....dogs don't deal with eachother that way, animals DO NOT deal with eachother in that way. We as people create the "purely positive" notion because we bring emotion into it, we don't want the dog to experience ANYTHING un-pleasant, period. We have seen more outta control dogs come out of "purely positive" training situations walking through our doors, period.

[Root Beer]

Are you under the impression because I choose to use a correction here and there that I am NOT showing the dog what is right??

 

The question that you had posed - to which I responded - was this:

 

If you never tell a dog what he's doing wrong, how will he know what you DON'T want him to do?

 

The emphasis of this question is on what you DON'T want, not on what is right. It is on what is being eliminated, not on what is correct.

 

I am not saying that it is not possible for a dog to learn that way - simply that there are other effective learning options. And that some people prefer those other options, for many reasons. Reasons that have nothing to do with emotions.

 

And with your driving anaology that seems like a WHOLE lot of running around...soley because you don"t want to experience anything un-pleasant, that's just not realistic. It's not practical for alot of pet owners and just plain doesn't work in relation to the competitive obedience world...period.

 

It was no more running around than your example. where the person is left to wander with no direction. In fact, it was much less. I think you completely missed the point of the example, though. The point was not driving time. It was that dogs are not left guessing, as you highlighted in your example, in reinforcement based training.

 

As far as the example, wrong turns happen. And dogs don't always respond correctly. That's a reality no matter the training approach chosen. What is done in response to the incorrect response is where differences will start to emerge based on the way one trains and handles dogs.

 

I've come across quite a lot of pet owners who learn how to train fine manners and basic behaviors through reinforcement. It's not the rocket science you seem to think it is. As far as competitive obedience - it is not the litmus test by which I judge the effectiveness of a training technique. The real world is that for me. If a dog can do a fast down at a distance while running toward a potential danger, that is effective, reliable, and good training in my book. And I know for a fact that such results can be achieved through reinforcement based training. I know you will find that difficult to believe, but I have seen, and done, that exact kind of training.

 

If I were driving and someone was giving me directions I would think the person would be giving me a great deal of respect in being up-front and clear with me as possible. If I am taking a wrong turn, TELL ME..don't worry about hurting my feelings...we both want the same thing..

 

I don't know why you keep bringing up hurt feelings. Did you know that people who choose not to use corrections in training do not typically make that choice because they think corrections will hurt their dogs feelings? I don't know a single reinforcement based trainer who has made that choice for that reason.

 

The fact of the matter is, is that life in general isn't "purely positive" RB....dogs don't deal with eachother that way, animals DO NOT deal with eachother in that way.

 

No, life in general is not. This is something we have discussed before. Reinforcement trainers recognize that every dog is going to experience suffering and difficulties in life. Reinforcement based training is not some unrealistic attempt to keep the dog in a bubble that protects them from the difficulties of life. It is an approach to training. It is a choice based on what one actually can control (training approach), not things that one cannot control (like disease, injury, boredom, the need for vet visits, etc.)

 

As far as dogs dealing with each other in that way - I'm not a dog. I don't sniff my dog's butts. I don't eat from a bowl on the floor. I don't sniff the perimeter of my property with my dogs. I don't deal with my dogs in the way my dogs deal with each other. I deal with them as a human being. As a human being, I have communication options that dogs do not have between one another. I use those.

 

In turn, my dogs don't treat me like another dog. I am not an "alpha dog" or a "lead dog" or any kind of dog. I am one of the humans in the household. The dogs treat me like a human.

 

That's a good thing since dogs don't call other dogs into the house - humans call dogs into the house. Dogs don't serve up the food. I serve up the food. Dogs don't train other dogs the manners and behaviors that the dog needs to be considered appropriate among humans. I do that. So, I don't try to do it in a dog-like fashion.

 

We as people create the "purely positive" notion because we bring emotion into it, we don't want the dog to experience ANYTHING un-pleasant, period. We have seen more outta control dogs come out of "purely positive" training situations walking through our doors, period.

 

And you know that my experience has been the exact opposite. I have seen more out of control dogs come out of training that employs corrections (not completely correction based training, but the mix that you describe) than anything that walks through my doors. The ones trained through reinforcement - even if it was done poorly and incompletely - tend to be the fastest to learn and make progress.

 

I think it is a true shame that the training establishments around you that call themselves "purely positive" are giving reinforcement based training such a poor reputation in your area. I wish you could see some of the dogs that I have had the privilege of working with firsthand, and a chance to see good reinforcement based training done, so you could actually get a firsthand look at what it actually is when it is done correctly.

 

I am not saying that reinforcement based training is some magical thing that works with no time, effort, or skill on the part of the handler. But it definitely has very little in common with what you are describing. And it can have a far more extensive effective application in dog training than you realize.

 

As it is, at some point we are going to have to, once again, agree to disagree.

[pammyd]

Lots of good ideas here

Just to confuse you more here is how I taught it

I free shaped my dogs to go to a mat - as in the 'go to your place' CU exercise. I made being on the matt vv rewarding so the dog had a happy race to the mat and a rock solid stay on the matt

I then put that on command only so the dog only went to the matt on command and could recal past the matt when needed

Then I used a different matt (dont think it mattered but it mattered to me) stood infront of the dog, called him too me and asked for a down on the matt - and rewarded like crazy on the matt

repeate, taking tiny steps back

Because the dog has already learnt to work away from you and down away from you on an object then this is fairly easy for them

I also mixed it up so that sometimes I called them all the way to me, sometimes downed on the mat

then I reduced the distance slightly and removed the mat for 1 rep - but the area on the floor was the same, they dog tends to be fooled into dropping without the mat - to a MAJOR reward, with my dogs I had to put the mat back several times and just do the odd 'trick' one with no matt there till they got the hang of it

Then take the matt on the move to different locations, and phase it out the same way

depending on the dog 5 or 10 locations and they will figure out the down means drop where you are

[Ninso]

Wow! I haven't been here in awhile, but I see it's the same old BC Boards!!

 

Not even going to get into the debate, but I do want to post a suggestion on the original question, that I didn't see in the other answers (ETA: And sorry if it was there and I missed it). I have three dogs, two know a "stop" on recall, like you're attempting to teach. (ETA: the third one is new, and I haven't worked it yet). I found it VERY easy to teach with a clicker and without any props or targets. (I tend to do my own thing and make it up as I go along!) There are two separate issues here: First, the drop at a distance, which it sounds like you have no problem with as long as your dog is standing still. Second, the dog stopping his forward motion toward you. And if you think about it, that's gotta be pretty confusing for a dog because of how well you've reinforced up to this point that "come" means "come all the way to me."

 

I think all the suggestions so far are great, particularly teaching a back up and what you have been doing, putting pressure on the dog by moving forwards to get the dog to stop. The way I have taught this is, I put the dog in a sit a short distance from me, call the dog to come, and then partway there, I cue "wait" and put pressure on by forward motion. It helps if the dog already has a "wait" in other contexts (e.g., before going through doors), meaning to pause momentarily until released. Usually, the dog will keep walking at first, but just keep putting on pressure until the dog stops. The dog doesn't have to stop immediately--if they stop anywhere between where you gave the cue and right in front of you they get an immediate click and then--here's the key--TOSS THE TREAT TO THEM. If it lands right in front of them, fine. You can even toss it behind them if they seem really inclined to come all the way to you. The dog learns that the reward will be out there away from you and this will speed up learning the behavior. Then you just gradually shape it so they're doing it immediately on cue.

 

I taught this to my deaf dog easily in a couple play sessions outside. She'd drop the ball at my feet and run out for the next throw. I'd call her back, but move toward her and give her a wait signal part way. As soon as she stopped, she got another toss of the ball. Once your dog has a basic understanding of the concept of stopping away from you, it should be easy to apply in whatever context you want.

 

Lots of different ways to teach anything and there is NOTHING that works equally well for 100% of dogs.

 

Sorry this got long!