Trial Classes?

[Journey]

OK, I know this is somewhat redundant and had been discussed but.....

 

The local club here in SW Tenn. really needs "help" imo So, I am asking everyone what classes are offered in your area and what are the course requirements for that class? Not really for Open or Nursery, all the "others". This club is offering Novice,Pro Novice, Open Ranch, Nursery and Open. Now the novice is imo a rip off for the handlers, they get to do a OLF and pen, that's it..I have tossed out the idea that they should allow them to do a complete PN course with either a wear or a drive (that went over real big), I also suggested they NOT payback 80% and I had poison darts lobbed at me

 

So, can you all tell me what classes you have, what the course requirements are, how many head you run per dog for all the un-sanctioned but offered classes? We (the club) are trying to improve; getting idea's of what others do may help move us (the club) into the 20th century!

 

Thanks!

[Kelliwic Border Collies]

I think NEBCA has a great Novice program. Their guidelines for Novice classes (Nov/Nov, Pro/Nov, and Ranch) are here.

[airbear]

The BC Stock Dog Association sanctions Open, PN, and Novice classes in field and arena sheep. I assume you are asking about field so here's what we require:

 

FIELD TRIALS:

•Novice/Novice: minimum of 75 yard outrun, drive and pen.

•Pro/Novice: minimum of 150 yard outrun, drive, cross-drive, and pen.

•Open: minimum of 200 yard outrun, drive, cross-drive, shed and pen.

 

It's up to the Course Director and/or Trial Director of that trial as to how the drive is executed in NN. Sometimes, they allow an assisted drive (and judge it the same as a drive where the handler stands at the post) while other times, you can do an assisted drive but you lose half your drive points if you do. You may not wear the drive.

[Donald McCaig]

Payback for Novice?

 

Donald McCaig

[kelpiegirl]

I would say that pay back in novice classes isn't something I would shoot for, but I would like to see what NEBCA has, and that is an olf, and then either a wear, or assisted drive through the drive away panels, and then pen. Actually, I HATE wearing sheep, so assisted drive would be a good step up. I have a hard time wearing sheep, as I have a hard time walking backwards, and am cursed with a head loving dog, well, maybe not cursed, but... In all seriousness though, assisted drive is good, because it allows the team to begin to see how to arrive at, and handle turns at and come back from panels, on a straight line.

[Cynthia P]

In Ontario we sanction Nebca as well as OBCC (Ontario)

 

We have N/N; P/N; Open for OBCC. The guidelines can be found http://www.ontariobordercollieclub.com/For...lguidelines.pdf

 

 

Our N/N has an OLF (max 150 yds), wear - 60 yds , pen; it is up to the trial manager's discretion as to a wear or assisted drive

 

PN: OLF 250 yds, drive away- apprx 2/3 of outrun distance; cross drive - approx 100 yards; pen

 

We just redid the guidelines 2 years ago and that was a big big amount of work.

 

And there shouldn't be any payout for novice classes...For Open we recommend payout schedule, after the other bills have been paid. The first person to be paid should be the person with the farm and the sheep.

 

Cynthia

[juliepoudrier]

I like the NEBCA classes. In VA, the rules are pretty similar to NEBCA's, except there isn't a provision for an assisted drive in N/N. I wouldn't object to an assisted drive. I think OLF and pen is not really worth the bother, to be honest.

 

As for payback in the novice classes, I think that's ridiculous and just encourages people to park there.

 

J.

[kelpiegirl]

Remember, once you have 30 points in N/N you must move up to P/N, and so on through until open (don't know what you need to move out of P/N). So, if you have a good bunch of runs, you may have to move quite fast.

[juliepoudrier]

I guess I figure if you have a good bunch of runs, you probably need to move up! I see it was a way of encouraging people to stretch.... And doesn't NEBCA still let you run at the finals at whatever level you pointed out of that year? That is, if you point out of N/N during the year, you can still run in N/N in the finals? (I'll leave the subject of whether there should be such a finals to another day.)

 

J.

[Journey]

Hey, thanks for the links and breakdowns everyone! I will compile them and send it off to the BOD for the club Yes, Donald...they payback in Novice, they say "that's how we've always done it, it encourages people to participate, Jim Guerrin did it this way..." Maybe a "point" system will work but quite frankly it would take a bazillion trials for anyone in this clubs "NN" class to "point" out. Short of quitting the club (thought of that) I am not going to get anywhere with them wrt not paying back in the unsanctioned classes.

 

Any other links or breakdowns out there for the novice level classes??

[Debbie Meier]

Our membership just passed a new move up rule, anyone that wins year end overall in Novice or Pro-Novice must move the dog up a division the next year. If a handlers wins the Novice overall year end award twice, even with different dogs they may never enter novice again, they have to start young dogs in Pro-Novice or run Non-Compete in Novice. Yes, we also payback novice.

[Mark Billadeau]

So, if you have a good bunch of runs, you may have to move quite fast.

A key difference with NEBCA system is the definition of good runs; in NEBCA good is defined by your score given to you by the judge not how well you placed against the other handlers. If you're doing well enough to get good scores you should be getting ready to move up.

[kelpiegirl]

Agreed Mark. I was simply pointing out that people cannot stay in the lower classes ad infinitum.

Oh, and eta: Regarding what a good run is, clearly, it would be the score awarded, NOT the placements, or why would we care about a score?

A key difference with NEBCA system is the definition of good runs; in NEBCA good is defined by your score given to you by the judge not how well you placed against the other handlers. If you're doing well enough to get good scores you should be getting ready to move up.

[juliepoudrier]

Believe it or not--in some areas when you move up is determined by number of wins and not by score. Making moving up dependent on scores makes perfect sense to me. Good for NEBCA for doing it that way.

 

Debbie,

Your new rule seems designed to require just one person per division per year to move up? That seems rather a glacial pace.

 

J.

[Journey]

Julie,

 

Several areas I have seen are on the 3 wins and you move up. I too like the NEBCA point system. Yet the ones here well, they can't move up, there's no opportunity the way it is now to actually "work" the dog and they payback money....no incentive to reach for more imo.

[Laurae]

Our club currently specifies nothing. But generally the local trials share some similar rules. We trial on undogged range sheep here, and I think that might make a difference in the course specifications. As we all know, range sheep are tough, and they are particularly unforgiving of the exuberance often seen in the lower classes. The few local trials that have a novice-novice class include a short outrun (75-100 yards), lift, fetch, and pen. The pen is usually not attained, as penning range sheep requires skills most novices have not yet mastered. It may be that assisted drives/wearing are not standard here because it would likely result in novice competitors never getting a score. Most trials have either a pro-novice or an open ranch class. These are generally indistinguishable (though open ranch is generally considered a more difficult course than pro-novice; sometimes a pro-novice course might have a shorter cross drive than an open ranch class would, but at the trial I was at this past weekend, the intermediate class was called pro-novice and had a full cross drive). Pro-novice/open ranch outruns are generally 200-300 yards (but can be as long as 350 yards). We generally run on three to five head.

 

ETA: Our club doesn't keep track of points, wins, or anything else. You move up when you win a bunch or when enough pressure is exerted on you to do so.

[juliepoudrier]

Julie,

 

Several areas I have seen are on the 3 wins and you move up. I too like the NEBCA point system. Yet the ones here well, they can't move up, there's no opportunity the way it is now to actually "work" the dog and they payback money....no incentive to reach for more imo.

Three wins and you move up makes more sense to me than move up if you win the year-end. Literally that's one person. At least with three wins over the course of a season you might get several people to move up.

 

I think year end awards and paybacks in the lower classes both simply encourage big-fish-in-a-small-pond syndrome. I think novice classes are good for getting people out without having to have everything in place to run in open (like the bad old days when open was all there was), but I sure wish more folks would see it for what it's meant to be: a stepping stone to the higher levels and ultimately to open and not a be all and end all in itself. Just dreamin' in my pollyanna world....

 

J.

[juliepoudrier]

Laura,

I need to move west. Can you help me find a full time job?

 

J.

[airbear]

Since we're now talking move-ups , here's ours!

 

NN Move-Up Rules

A dog must move to the Pro Novice Class in the following calendar year:

 

a) after having placed 7 times in the top third of N/N class of 10 dogs or more in a sanctioned trial, or

b ) after having placed 1 time in the top half of a P/N class of 10 dogs or more

 

Pro Novice Move Up Rules

A dog must move to the Open Class in the following calendar year:

 

a) after having placed 7 times in the top 1/3 of a P/N class of 3 dogs or more, or

b ) after having placed 2 times in the top ½ of an Open class of 3 dogs or more in sanctioned trials.

 

We move probably two or three teams out of NN each year and maybe four or five out of PN. If you're not a member of BCSDA, then we don't track your move-ups (so I suppose you could run NN forever) but you also aren't eligible for year-end awards. Almost all handlers are members of BCSDA, though.

[juliepoudrier]

Kristi,

I'm not sure I follow your rules. Do they allow for a dog to run in two classes simultaneously? (Otherwise I don't see how a dog in N/N could be required to move up after placing in P/N, since presumably it wouldn't be running in both P/N and N/N? In other words, how does one move up to P/N if one is already running in P/N?)

 

J.

[airbear]

Yup, we allow cross-entering across two classes (NN and PN, or PN and Open). Most of our organizers permit cross-entering at their trials, so yeah, your dog can run in two classes at the same trial.

[Mark Billadeau]

That is not possible on the east coast due to rules with most clubs except for NEBCA which allows Ranch & Open cross entries until you place in Open. However, this year (east coast finals) almost all trials are overbooked with entries on the opening date so "cross entries" are not being allowed.

 

Last weekend, Borders on Paradise had 80 open runs on Friday and 80 on Saturday. On Sunday there were 16 Nursery, 25 Ranch, 39 ProNovice, and 12 Novice/Novice.

 

Mark

[Debbie Meier]

Debbie,

Your new rule seems designed to require just one person per division per year to move up? That seems rather a glacial pace.

 

J.

 

First off, it's not my new rule, other club members spearheaded it and it was approved at the annual meeting. There is some history to it, considering that prior to 3 years ago there was no move up rule, then we were able to get a move up based on points earned but limited to no more then two dogs, which this past year no one earned enough points but both top point earners moved up on their own...this is going to be an adjustment for some.

[Laurae]

Laura,

I need to move west. Can you help me find a full time job?

 

J.

 

Ha! You'd love it out here, Julie. I'll keep my ears open

[Debbie Meier]

Another thing to remember, our club is not an exclusive Border Collie Club, the rules, membership and requirements at trials trend based on the powers that be on the board at the time and who is offering the trials. At this time we are trending more toward a USBCHA direction, even more specifically on cattle, with all but one board member running or wanting to run competitively in the open field and three are pretty stong on cattle (one just won the Nationals Nursery Finals). Of our seven board members two are novice handlers, running dogs in P/N and Novice, 4 are Open handlers and 1 has not been competing. The numbers are nearly opposite of what they were 5 years ago, at that time we had board members that were also involved in AHBA and ASCA and probably would be considered more focused in that direction, which I have no issue with, it just changes the direction that the club and trials take. I think right now we only have one board member that is running the other formats. Looking at the membership list the entire membership roster has trended toward USBCHA vs. the other formats and other breeds compared to 5 years ago. Give it another 5-10 years it might go back the other way.