Guard dogs under threat

[Bill Fosher]

The American Sheep Industry is seeking input on a draft set of guidelines and best management practices for the use of livestock guardian dogs. In my opinion, these are very badly constructed, and will simply provide those who would seek to harass farmers using guard dogs with a new set of weapons. You can read the proposed guidelines here.

 

And you can read my comments here.

[Amelia]

The propsed guidelines made me think this; rough draft of the inquisition. Your comments were thoughtful, succinct and spot on.

 

Cheers Bill

[feas]

Bill,

 

Well done. Looks like you have this nailed. Only if they listen.

 

Passed this on to friends.

[Bill Fosher]

Thanks guys. Make sure you submit your own comments. You don't have to be an ASI member to do so.

[Tea]

I have not read the article in full. (I will tho.)

 

I have read yours Bill which I agree with completely.

 

But I keep thinking. This is not about dogs.

 

It is about people trying to make a world 'safe'

 

I have found with my wildlife work and agriculture work. That there is a problem in peoples heads. A conflict about safety.

 

Like the people who go into Glacier, get mauled by a bear then sue.

 

Or the problems that will arise with the loss of fear in the wolves of Yellowstone. There WILL be a problem there at some point. And then all hell will break loose.

(But that is never talked about. Because having a big predator close to a road makes money.)

 

People have to take responsibility I guess, in an ever shrinking and silly world.

 

The LGD is the absolute Best way to have livestock. That and good fencing and teaching people not to feed wildlife.

I just have to throw my hands up and walk away some days, shaking my head.

[bcnewe2]

Very interesting article. Sorta like the Breed specfic ban only the oppisite. I too thought calling them an LPD was strange and uncalled for. Reminded me of shutzund work.

 

I can't think of anything you didn't already comment on. I will have to think of my own words to say what you put quite nicely.

 

The LGD's and yuppies taking over CO is quite a problem. Even when I was down in backwoods AR they understood exactly what the LGD's were doing. Here, they think it's a big scary loose dog that I should keep locked up 24/7.

 

The people I bought the LGD's from here are a huge 1000+ head sheep operation. They run sheep in the high country from here to WY during summer. But in winter they have to keep most of their LGD's locked up cause the home base is close to town and the neighbors don't like to hear barking to close. They lose more sheep at home than when in the high country away from everybody.

 

I don't and never will have a large operation. I've made my LGD's people friendly in one way or another. I think that might help the situation but how does the huge back country sheep industry do that?

[ItsADogsLyfe]

Good reply Bill. I just get so sick of all the restrictions they create for things. If one person has an incident then immediately "something" has to be done to prevent that incident from happening again. How about just people using some common sense and not thinking they can go through life doing as they please and if something happens they can just sue? Ever heard the Proclaimers song "Everybody's a victim?" I think that song says it all.

[Bill Fosher]

Even if you can't think of anything to add, it's important to respond. The ASI has asked for input from producers. Even if all you say is that you don't think this will be helpful, at least say that.

[pastora]

First time poster here....enjoy the board and the info all of you post. Glad to be part of this.

 

Bill your comments are excellent, I couldn't add much to it....

 

I raise dairy goats and will be adding some sheep to my holdings this spring.

I run several LGD's of all breeds. I post signs around the perimeter of my property

that can be purchased from the Anatolian club warning that I have LGDs working

the property and do not disturb them. I do this to cover my bum for insurance

purposes....

 

Our area has in addition to feral dog packs and tons of coyotes, occasional but never

publicized wolf sightings near Jarbidge, and mountian lions galore.

 

In this sad "politically correct" world we live in, I see the sheep industry's try at controlling our LGD's another

form of Big Brother and too much government control....

 

In open range situations such as we have here in Northern Nevada, much of their recommendations

would not hold water...AT all.....

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Bill,

Here's what I sent them: Dear Ms. Mary,

I've had a commercial flock for forty years, Border Collies for 25 and LGDs for 15. My dog books have been International best sellers.

 

Some of your guidelines make me wonder if the authors have ever owned LGDs.

 

Do not let dogs feed on sheep carcasses.

 

Now how the hell are you going to do that? Bury every carcass?

 

LPDs must be trained to respond to basic voice commands.

 

If you socialize these dogs to humans so that they will reliably obey voice commands, they won't be socialized to sheep and will be useless as guard dogs. My farm flock guard dogs will come when called -= unless something is threatening their sheep.

 

LPDs that cannot be easily caught and leashed will not be allowed to work on federal

lands.

 

 

Ditto.

 

LPDs must be socialized to people. They need to be trained so that vehicles, ATVs, hikers (with or without a dog) and bikers do not appear in the dog’s mind to pose a threat to the sheep.

 

Uh, er . . .how? LGDs are genetically protective. If ATV strangers often roar past their flock w/o harming the sheep, ATVs probably won't bother the LGD. If some idiot on a bike appears acting dangerously (or obliviously- same thing) - first time the dogs have ever seen such an idiot – said idiot is dog food. You cannot desensitize for idiots: idiots will find a fresh way to be idiotic every time. (See the Darwin Awards for examples)

 

LPDs should be tied up on federal lands if a herder is not present and there is the potential for contact between people and the LPD.

 

Fine but who will lock up the coyotes?

 

LPD owners will train their dogs to stay on their property while patrolling for predators

when sheep are held within fenced pastures.

 

I've been a dog trainer for a quarter century. I'd be interested to learn how one can train a LGD to stop at a fence when there's a coyote on the other side.

 

 

I understand what you’re trying to do and, yes, idiots are a problem - the dogs are just doing their job. The problem is compounded on BLM lands where different human groups have legitimate access and conflicting agendas. I also have no doubt that some herders and/or their employers are careless with their LGD’s.

 

But the problem cannot be solved by demanding human control of LDG instinct that simply cannot be and ain’t gonna be accomplished.

 

My experience:

 

I have a farm flock, neighbors, neighbors’ dogs, hunters, hunters’ dogs, trail riders on the county road above my farm, UPS, FedEx and people stopping to ask for directions.

 

I and others train their sheepdogs on my sheep. Strange dogs sometimes work my flock. I introduce each strangers dog to the LGD’s and they are used to strange people. I warn my hunters and hold the flock away from the busiest human activity – especially during lambing. I expect most LGD owners take similar precautions But precautions ain’t no sure thing. Push come to shove, my LGDs will protect my sheep and if some idiot insists on his god-given-right to be idiotic, he’s going to get nailed.

 

Some of your guidelines are reasonable – I’ve picked on the silliest ones. Better control of the dogs (that’s possible), stronger, clearer public warnings and enhanced awareness among producers that other citizens have rights should go a long way toward mitigating the problem.

 

 

Donald McCaig

[Bill Fosher]

Thanks Donald.

[Mark Billadeau]

Email response sent against proposal.

Mark

[Sue R]

I also sent an email, voicing my concerns. Thanks, Bill, for bringing this issue to our attention.

[pastora]

Amen on the socializing with people..... This is so important.

 

The old adage about not letting LGD's interact with owners/herders, no human touching,

etc., is, IMHO, bullarky..... Guys I know out here ranging open range sheep - we are talking

6,000 head and more - even most of them socialize their pups to some degree. They have to be handled.

 

Mine have to be handled frequently for trips to vet...can just see my

vet trying to deal with a 120-180 pd LGDs who have never been touched by anyone but me.

 

Few years back we had a tragic situation out here where a large ranch changed hands. The LGDs out with

the bands of sheep 'went wild' - were left unattended, no herders, no food.

Inbred pups grew up wild, started attacking cowboys

on horses, killing and eating sheep to survive. The few 'good' dogs left who stayed protecting bands, were

spray painted on backs. The rest - a pilot and shooter were hired to fly over and shot 90 - NINETY - dogs.

What a tragedy. Another situation I know of a kid at local feed store has 225 pd Pyr. Pyr's parents had to

be shot and killed after they took to killing full grown heifers. Owner had to shoot them.

 

LGD's are a huge responsibility. By nature they can be a handful. Owners/herders must

be accountable in this regard. Some guys out there only do minimal upkeep on their dogs, don't give shots,

don't deworm, don't handle enough to socialize, etc. It is OUR responsibility to be accountable as

owners of these dogs.