Jump to content
BC Boards

Don't understand ASCA trials


kelpiegirl
 Share

Recommended Posts

Recently, I attended an ASCA stockdog trial. Now, I have attended them before, so I suppose I wasn't all that surprised, but something just does not sit right with me.

 

That something, is that there is no gathering. Now, call me a purist, but I do like to see dogs fetch sheep at a trial, at home, or anywhere as an important element of "what they should be able to do".

 

This particular trial, as in many, the run starts out with a "Take Pen", where you have to send your dog in to retrieve the sheep, but you cannot enter yourself. The rules are- even though the sheep BOLT out of the pen, your dog STILL has to go in- as if that makes any sense. One time I ran at a trial where I thought I would be "smart" and lay my dog down about 15 feet away from the door, so they could not bolt. Got no score, because the dog has to go in- and naturally, as she does, the sheep run pell mell to the exhaust. Hmmm.

 

But, I digress. At this trial, the dog had to be sent to the sheep in the corner, and drive them along the wall. So, it's probably not a good scenario for young dogs who stop short on their outrun. Then, the tried and true panels parallel to the walls, and then a chute, and then repen.

 

Basically, the dog is driving the whole course, and balancing to the fence, except for the chute.

 

Why did ASCA settle on this kind of trial course? Why is there no gathering, except maybe a small one in the upper levels (some times), and always driving on the fence, or near it?

 

I saw several I know to be good gathering dogs get hammered for doing what they naturally should, it well, irritated me, to be honest.

 

Of course, I may be *completely* not getting it, so if someone knows about this, I would love to know.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Recently, I attended an ASCA stockdog trial. Now, I have attended them before, so I suppose I wasn't all that surprised, but something just does not sit right with me.

 

That something, is that there is no gathering. Now, call me a purist, but I do like to see dogs fetch sheep at a trial, at home, or anywhere as an important element of "what they should be able to do".

 

This particular trial, as in many, the run starts out with a "Take Pen", where you have to send your dog in to retrieve the sheep, but you cannot enter yourself. The rules are- even though the sheep BOLT out of the pen, your dog STILL has to go in- as if that makes any sense. One time I ran at a trial where I thought I would be "smart" and lay my dog down about 15 feet away from the door, so they could not bolt. Got no score, because the dog has to go in- and naturally, as she does, the sheep run pell mell to the exhaust. Hmmm.

 

I think they do have a bigger gather in some of the "Ranch" type classes, but really- I don't mind that they do their course that way, because they've designed it for their breed, which does better (not better than a border collie, IMHO, but that is where their strengths are) working in close quarters with their handler. They are better at driving than gathering, in my experience and while it makes me a little nuts to work with the bouncy beasts, some people actually prefer that style and I have seen quite useful dogs working close at hand with good handlers. I also watched, at last years ASCA Nationals, that they used a dog on a leash when handling the trial stock :rolleyes:.

 

 

That being said, I did attend an AHBA trial that had a take pen instead of a gather, and I didn't mind it. I was actually surprised at how many dogs could not do it (the stock was actually quite rough, a last minute substitution for a farm flock that backed out). A task like that, while not difficult for most of us that use our dogs in a practical manner, does challenge those that are just trial training their dogs and not developing a working partnership. As far as the bolting to the exhaust, alot would depend on how much the judge would hit you for that- because to me, working the take pen would be about sending the dog in while you help control your side and keep the sheep from bolting. If they do bolt through a person that is doing their best to control the stock, it would seem that the judge would have to allow for trial sour stock. At the trial I went to, the exhaust was actually behind the take pen, so it wasn't a problem and most of the sheep had to be peeled off the back fence.

 

 

No, it's nothing like the test we ask of our dogs, but as far as I know, they are the only other breed besides border collies that supports its own trial system and standard instead of relying on AKC/AHBA to provide a level playing field for all breeds. So, more power to them, IMHO.

 

What I really wonder about is border collie folks that train their dogs specifically to trial in ASCA, I've seen that make for some really limited dogs.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yep :D

I have run in a couple of these trials, and I do enjoy them. The upper levels DO have an o/l/f, and then you move on to obstacles, which are not, I shall point out, along the fence :rolleyes: They are time and point trials, and they allow for discretion of the farm owner as to what obstacles to put in (foot baths, maltese cross, shed).

 

Have you checked this association out that was started by some aussie handlers a few years ago? http://a-s-t-a.org/
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The ASCA ranch class does have a gather most in the South are on a field of about 5 acres. Also, just and fyi - with the take pen, you don't have to leave the pen gate open when you send your dog in. You can send your dog in (as long as they are quiet) and not reopen the gate until they have settled behind the stock (or wherever need be so they don't bolt).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hmm, I didn't know that. But, honestly, why must one send their dog when the sheep bolt out? Not that I don't think it's an important ability (to get in tight spaces with sheep/live stock), but if you are being timed, you lose a heck of a lot of time when you open the gate, and the sheep fly to the other end of the fenced in area (arena/field). In the situation I was in, these sheep would have bolted regardless of the presence of the dog, and that's why I chose to lay her down to stop them. That earned me a no score, because we didn't go in the pen...Here I thought I was being SMRT :rolleyes:

The only place I could have put my dog to settle them was in front of the gate, in the pen, and then, slooooowly open it, and allow her to cover when they were out and I shut it. Then, onward.

 

I have never seen an ASCA ranch class- are there any on youtube?

 

The ASCA ranch class does have a gather most in the South are on a field of about 5 acres. Also, just and fyi - with the take pen, you don't have to leave the pen gate open when you send your dog in. You can send your dog in (as long as they are quiet) and not reopen the gate until they have settled behind the stock (or wherever need be so they don't bolt).
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I've never been to one (ASTA) but from the sounds of it, the ASTA trials are in line with the point/time trials that we are running here in Iowa with IHDA.

 

Though, I had to wrestle with one of the event producers a couple of years ago to allow the novice handlers to leave the handlers post, he wanted the novice to do a OLF. I negotiated a point penatly for leaving the post the first year, this past year I got it reduced to no penalty. I made the argument that if you have to go and help your dog on the fetch you will get penalized by it taking more time then if your dog can properly OLF. Basically not having a dog that can do a OLF effectively is a penalty in itself. Of course the producer argued that if a dog has to be helped that much that they have no business being out in public in a trial, so I countered with a "call them off and disqualify them if they are out of control". I see the producers point, it just a lot easier to make the class requirements high enough so that you don't get entries from those that are not ready to be competitive as opposed to being a bad guy and calling a run.

 

Also, none of the producers allow the handler to pass through the obstacles in any of the classes. Oh yeah, the majority of the rules are made by the producers, the club only sets down the conduct, ethics and point system. Some of the trials around here have the open and a nursery class that are sanctioned by USBCHA, some are not sanctioned by any national organization.

 

There were two judged sheep trials this past season, both in arenas (one baseball diamond), the judge required a OLF but allowed the novice handlers to be closer to the sheep and/or had the sheep set out off of the back fence closer to the handler then in the p/n or open

 

In most cases our pro-novice/intermediate course is the same as the open, just no shed.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hmm, I didn't know that. But, honestly, why must one send their dog when the sheep bolt out?

I think some events and/or organizations may get more caught up in rules than in reality, and so their regulations do not reflect accomplishing a job sensibly. JMO.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The only place I could have put my dog to settle them was in front of the gate, in the pen, and then, slooooowly open it, and allow her to cover when they were out and I shut it. Then, onward.

 

I have never seen an ASCA ranch class- are there any on youtube?

 

Then that's the way it should have been handled....worrying about time is generally pointless (pun intended!) if you can't run the course in the allotted time you're in trouble anyway! And if you're worried about time for "winning" can't help you there.

 

I've not tried YouTube, PC goes on strike when I try to go there - dang dial up!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Had one of the fastest runs there :rolleyes: It's not about winning, that anyone who knows me would know that. It's about the rules making no sense. I just don't see why one has to send a dog in after sheep who are already busting to come out.

That's basically it. I don't do it when doing chores, and I certainly wouldn't do it (and one cannot) in a field trial, of which I am most accustomed.

Then that's the way it should have been handled....worrying about time is generally pointless (pun intended!) if you can't run the course in the allotted time you're in trouble anyway! And if you're worried about time for "winning" can't help you there.

 

I've not tried YouTube, PC goes on strike when I try to go there - dang dial up!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You used to be able to do the "take" in whatever fashion brought the stock out best. Some places you sent around the pen to hop through the rails from the back, or just let them out as you did. Lots of ASCA rules have changed since we were active in it I think, and attitudes certainly have. In this region they seem more worried about proving their dogs aren't Border Collies than actually doing good work.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

×
×
  • Create New...