Ooky Posted October 25, 2009 Report Share Posted October 25, 2009 The background is I fell in love with training my young dog to do stockwork, with the eventual goal of helping me around a future hobby farm and possibly trialing if we ever could. Then I got pregnant and everything I read said I wasn't allowed to do "dangerous sports" anymore. This made me assume stock training was out completely, because it's not like it's a danger-free activity and I have fallen down a couple of times while running backwards over uneven ground. However, I spoke to a doctor this week, and without fully explaining what I was trying to do (because there's NO WAY this urban doctor is going to understand what I'm talking about), I learned a few things. 1) Falling, especially just keeling over backwards the way I have, is actually not a danger to the, um, passenger. They worry most that you might hurt yourself and then have to finish a pregnancy with a broken ankle or take care of a newborn while you have a broken arm, etc. In none of my falls do I feel like I've even come close to hurting myself, and certainly no more so than if I tripped off a curb while walking in the city. 2) She defined "dangerous sports" as "anything where you could be careening through the air at 30 mph" or similar. Not doing that. 3) Later on my balance *will* get iffy and I'll be more prone to injury from looser joints, so at some point it really will be unwise (if it isn't already, which I just don't know). But I am supposed to keep exercising and walking the whole time, it is highly encouraged, and she said whatever I feel safe doing is good. I've never felt unsafe for myself with Odin and the sheep. So, I want to ask the opinions of people here, especially anyone who themselves maybe worked with a dog while pregnant (or their wives did) or they decided NOT to, and why. The training situation I have easy access to right now has black-bellied barbadoes who do seem a little skittish like they've been exposed to a few too many dogs that don't treat stock well, if that makes any sense. But where that has been difficult for me is not that they're crashing into me (and they are shorter than my stomach anyway), but that when I have Odin take the pressure completely off they often just continue going wherever they were headed anyway. I'm learning I have to let him cover them, which means letting them be lost past me and brought back a lot, because otherwise, they just go past me anyway and he lies there with panic on his face and I don't feel like that's any lesson to teach him! We have to catch them when we start because they run as soon as I enter the pen, but again, this is running away from me, not stampeding over me. Odin has a great down and even though he is super super green he works with me very well - he doesn't understand everything I ask of him (and that's not his fault as he's not trained and I don't always make sense) but my trainer can't say enough nice things about his responsiveness and feel for the stock. He is not a dirty gripper or a diver, and I don't really know how much bite he would have if he had to have it at this point, because he has treated the sheep fairly and they haven't needed it. She was going to move us into the large field the next time I went, which has more sheep and is maybe 2-3 ac? We've been in a 100x200 pen there up till now, although Odin has been in bigger areas at other venues before. Anyway, any sort of opinions I could get would be great. I didn't think the doctor would understand what the activity entailed, either the risks or the non-risks. Also, if I do keep doing this do I need to stay where I know what's happening, or could I still try and take a lesson with a different trainer (I've really got my eye on Suzy Applegate if I can get her to call me back!!)? Thanks in advance, --Kelly (ooky) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoloRiver Posted October 25, 2009 Report Share Posted October 25, 2009 Are you going to that place in San Ramon that a lot of the AKC people go to? That's the only place I can think of around there that still has Barbs. If so, I would greatly recommend that you call Suzy again, or Bill Berhow. I hate Barbs, even though I have a dog (Fly) who does really well with them, exactly because they keep running even when the dog isn't pressuring them anymore. It makes them not so awesome for improving a dog's pace or feel because they don't reward him for being right. Other than that, I have no advice for you. Working sheep does not seem particularly dangerous to me. There may come a point where you feel like you don't move fast enough to work with a green dog like Odin, but it's not like getting on a bronco. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjk05 Posted October 25, 2009 Report Share Posted October 25, 2009 I'm 29 weeks now, and still working dogs. I trained and trialled throughout my last pregnancy too, as well as working on the farm. There are dangers involved, but mostly in the farmwork, where we're climbing over fences and into yards with thousands of sheep and unpredictable lambs, so I worry a little bit about falling or getting smashed into. We don't have a lot of choice in some ways, because this is one of the busiest times for sheepwork, we're drenching/weaning/crutching every day, and start shearing in about a week. I'm helping whenever I'm free, and have modified what I do a little bit- I tend to work dogs outside of the yards where possible, go on the draft gate rather than in the pens, I try to do paddock work in preference to yardwork if there's a choice, I'm not drenching (too hard to climb into races) and when we're shearing I probably won't be penning up rams. But training isn't much of an issue (if I ever got time). In coming weeks I probably won't do much with pups in round pen or in the paddock, because they're more likely to run sheep over me, and if I work older dogs I'll take the big brutal crossbreds out of the group. You can get hurt working sheep- I've been knocked over a few times, had a couple of lambs jump up in the drafting race and thump me in the face, and have fallen over and slipped in mucky yards. I agree it generally isn't a big issue even when you're pregnant, but it can be- my one dog-related pregnancy issue last time occurred in my 3rd trimester when I fell over my dog (nowhere near sheep) and landed on my belly, then started having fairly strong contractions and ended up spending a night in hospital while they settled. I also had an orf in my 2nd trimester of the last pregnancy, probably from handling a scabby mouth affected sheep in the yards. There's no evidence it causes problems, but it did cause worry. So I'd say keep working your dog while you're feeling comfortable- in the open rather than in a yard is possibly better, with sheep that won't run you over, and try to avoid walking backwards or running anywhere as you get further along and your balance gets worse. And after you've had the baby, I can highly recommend getting a sling or three- Hugabub or Ergo or similar- I worked sheep on the farm and even on the trial ground carrying my son for most of the past 2 years! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C Crocker Posted October 26, 2009 Report Share Posted October 26, 2009 Anyway, any sort of opinions I could get would be great. I didn't think the doctor would understand what the activity entailed, either the risks or the non-risks. Also, if I do keep doing this do I need to stay where I know what's happening, or could I still try and take a lesson with a different trainer (I've really got my eye on Suzy Applegate if I can get her to call me back!!)? Thanks in advance, --Kelly (ooky) Kelly, You need to email Suzy to get a more rapid response. Most of her communication is done through email, as far as lessons and other dog business is concerned. Go to her website Hoofandpawfarms and you will see her email there. I will highly recommend her as a teacher, at least she fits what I am looking for in a trainer and teacher. I bought my dog from her as a pup and she has trained her for me. I could not be happier with Lyn. You might explain your situation and ask her opinion as far as working when pg, as she has a 3 year old son and will understand. Good luck, both with preganancy and sheepwork. Carolyn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C Crocker Posted October 26, 2009 Report Share Posted October 26, 2009 Are you going to that place in San Ramon that a lot of the AKC people go to? That's the only place I can think of around there that still has Barbs. If so, I would greatly recommend that you call Suzy again, or Bill Berhow. I hate Barbs, even though I have a dog (Fly) who does really well with them, exactly because they keep running even when the dog isn't pressuring them anymore. It makes them not so awesome for improving a dog's pace or feel because they don't reward him for being right. Other than that, I have no advice for you. Working sheep does not seem particularly dangerous to me. There may come a point where you feel like you don't move fast enough to work with a green dog like Odin, but it's not like getting on a bronco. The coop has changed hands and the sheep that were there with the last group are all gone. While there may some barbs there are other breeds as well and I believe fewer dogs of breeds other than border collies working them. Carolyn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoseAmy Posted October 26, 2009 Report Share Posted October 26, 2009 Just some food for thought. I have had several riding students ride and show (with their doctors blessing) right up to the end. In fact I had a good friend that went into labor at the barn.. All babies were born healthy and happy. Moms sailed right though delivery. Basically they were told if you are used to the activity continue as long as YOU feel comfortable doing it. And make adjustments as your body changes. And yes it's not the "passenger" they worry about it's the mom in case of a broken bone or such that would need surgery to repair. etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JaderBug Posted October 26, 2009 Report Share Posted October 26, 2009 This is an interesting thread- I imagine I'll be in this situation before too terribly long, probably in another two years or so. My job will probably require me to be moving amongst hogs during my pregnancy, so working dogs while pregnant wasn't one of my bigger concerns. However, I am wondering what it's like to raise a family and continue training and trialing dogs. My husband seems to think that if I continue or get into all this sheepdog stuff as much as I want to, we won't be able to have a family, which is a big concern for him. I know that's not how it will be, but I guess I don't honestly know how that all works. How do you raise a family and continue with your dog life? What sort of sacrifices do you make, if any? What can I find out to put his worries to rest? ETA: Kelly, I don't mean to hijack your thread, but I thought maybe this would be something you might run into as well... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ooky Posted October 26, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 26, 2009 Thank you SO much to everyone who has replied, you've really, really made my day Both my mom and mother-in-law had said I would have to quit, but I’m not sure why I let that scare me because they are both suburbanites (particularly my mother who thinks this whole hobby is beyond ridiculous anyway). Anyway, having found myself in this state very much by surprise, I’ve at times been focusing on how it’s going to change my life for the worse, and when I thought about it this was one of the aspects I was most upset about. Also, it seems compared to when all my cousins were born in the 90s, the establishment just gets stricter and stricter about what a pregnant person is allowed to do. You should see the gigantic list of everything I’m not allowed to eat. We are moving soon and were looking at ranch properties, and are now looking at urban apartments very close to my work. But my DH, the enabler , kept saying “I don’t see one reason why you have to quit, even if we do have to wait a bit on the ranch.” And the doctor, while not really knowing what I wanted to do, corroborated this, explaining that the body is set up evolutionarily to live a very active life during gestation. Just lately, it’s seeming like this may all be pretty darn cool anyway, even if it is not how I was planning for my life to go right now. Thank you also for the sling recommendations – that sounds like just the ticket and also gets to Rachel (Jaderbug)’s questions too. I was always planning to go back to this once the pregnancy was over, even when I thought I’d have to quit in the meantime. All I can say about that is that the friends I have who think they have to become a completely different person when they have kids and are then ONLY a mom without any activities of THEIR own are not very happy people, or very fulfilled. Not that they don’t love their families, but from the examples I’ve seen, I think it really makes you a better parent to remain engaged in your own life and integrate kids into that. I will definitely email Suzy – that is great advice. I’ve probably called her 4 times and have felt like such a pest! Melanie, I don’t go to San Ramon, I go up to Marin where there are some other board members too. However, the trainer is primarily a kelpie trainer and is not USBCHA. As much as I like her and the facility is very convenient for me, I am still looking around and know I could really learn a lot from working with different people. That is very interesting what you mention about barbs, it is exactly the issue I’ve been dealing with (I feel like he doesn’t get “normal” feedback from the sheep sometimes). However, they are light and can be very fun. Thanks again, and I KNOW Odin thanks you all too. J Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lana Posted October 26, 2009 Report Share Posted October 26, 2009 I rode horses, ran, did ranch work, and worked dogs through both my pregnancies. I had c-sects with both and was working dogs again day 5 after the first one. That said, all women have different pregnancies and different levels of comfort before, during, and after we give birth. Listen to you body and you will be fine. I have trained and trialed my dogs with children who are 21 months apart. I have an amazing supportive husband who understands and supports my passion, and i think that is HUGE. James attended his first trial in the middle of winter when he was one month old. We drove across country to the cattle finals when he was 3 months old. Katy and i flew to Texas just the 2 of us.. with TWO dogs when she was 6 months old( i did not want to miss the finals and she was nursing) Katy and James went across country to the finals when they were both toddlers. I wont lie the work load is double and you have to really want to go, but my kids are very well rounded and can play anywhere. Lots of stops, good snacks, games, and yes the DVD player helps My girl friends all chip in when i take the kids and Marty is not there.It is all very doable and fun so GO FOR IT Lana Rowley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
workindogs Posted October 26, 2009 Report Share Posted October 26, 2009 Kelly, Just keep bugging Suzy.....she can be a little slow to respond. You can tell her I told you it was ok to pester her She may have some thoughts and advice about being pregnant and training as she went through it not too long ago. Also, Bill Berhow would be a good source for lessons....but I'm not sure he will be able to relate to your pregnancy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mbc1963 Posted October 26, 2009 Report Share Posted October 26, 2009 FWIW, I used to babysit for a family near my college. The mother had 2 small boys, and was expecting a third baby, so needed a "Mommy's helper" a couple afternoons a week. She was 8.5 months pregnant when she took her family to the Christmas festival in town. Tripped on a curb, fell, and broke her humerus (upper arm bone). Then, two weeks later, delivered a 10 lb, 10 oz. baby girl. Spent the first several months of the baby's life with her upper arm strapped down to her body. So, given the perils of simply walking around town, I'd say go ahead and do your sheepwork! You can hardly be in much more danger than you are in "everyday" life. Mary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoseAmy Posted October 26, 2009 Report Share Posted October 26, 2009 Remember kids are supposed to fit into your lifestyle not you into theirs. Something alot of parents seem to forget these days. My friend that went into labor in the barn..well six weeks later she was back showing..with little Chas in tow. We had one of those sling things and carried him around in that. I even had him with me when I was riding horses before the classes. Yep 6 wks old and on horse back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caroline Reichard Posted October 27, 2009 Report Share Posted October 27, 2009 1. Stay away from body fluids of pregnant ewes while you are pregnant. 2. Don't talk too much with your mother-in-law and mom about what you do unless you really want their opinions. (This goes for the next 18+ years.) 3. Don't give up doing what you love. 4. Be forgiving of yourself if some things get put on hold. 5. Take naps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mariji Posted November 16, 2009 Report Share Posted November 16, 2009 This is an interesting thread- I imagine I'll be in this situation before too terribly long, probably in another two years or so. My job will probably require me to be moving amongst hogs during my pregnancy, so working dogs while pregnant wasn't one of my bigger concerns. However, I am wondering what it's like to raise a family and continue training and trialing dogs. My husband seems to think that if I continue or get into all this sheepdog stuff as much as I want to, we won't be able to have a family, which is a big concern for him. I know that's not how it will be, but I guess I don't honestly know how that all works. How do you raise a family and continue with your dog life? What sort of sacrifices do you make, if any? What can I find out to put his worries to rest? ETA: Kelly, I don't mean to hijack your thread, but I thought maybe this would be something you might run into as well... Let me say, and this is from MY experience others may feel different. That nothing for me has changed. I don't have real working dogs nor a farm but i do trial in agility and that is full time training in itself with 2 dogs. My son is nearly 8 months and i haven't noticed a difference. People make out like you have no time at all but i have found that if i clean up while bubba is awake then he has something to watch and less crying. I will train the dogs either with him in a chair which he loves to watch outside or when he is asleep.(more so with him watching as my older is very agility vocal) Sure the first couple months at the most are a little out of wack, as there is no routine and you are very very unfit. Perfect time to work on distance training!!! Babies when they are very tiny sleep so much you can just backpack them and continue training. I have 2 jobs, 2 dogs, one trialing, one training, the baby and i still manage to keep the house clean and the dogs fit. It can work. So don't freak out. All the advice people gave to me has just gone out the window as you and your family is completely different to everyone else. Just one point though i put my girl in a kennel for 1 week after baby was born and although i missed her it was much better than her being home and stressing. That way she came home, i was rested and ready to start counter conditioning her nervousness of the baby Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted November 16, 2009 Report Share Posted November 16, 2009 I'm glad Lana posted, as I was thinking of her as I read this thread. To the parents and in-laws I'd simply note that farm women have continued to do their farm/family chores and have and raise babies as long as humans have been farming. Frankly, I think there's no better way to raise a child than on a farm (that was how I was raised). There's a girl (woman) whose name escapes me at the moment who sets sheep for the three-day Memorial Day weekend trial held at Ben Ousley's farm in Lawndale, NC. She has several small children, and for many years she has been the person who sets sheep, all day every day. The baby will be in a sling on her back, and the older children hang out and play around the camper there at the top. She's quite famous in this area for doing that difficult job, usually in high heat and humidity, with child in tow. My mother continued to ride horseback pretty much right up to giving birth to each of us. We have old photos of some of us as toddlers sitting in front of her in the saddle. Truthfully the more fit and active you are, the better things should go. I also agree with RoseAmy that children shouldn't force you to change your lifestyle entirely. Raising them in your lifestyle will help instill your values, including a love of animals, which is always a good thing. Common sense should prevail: e.g., don't try starting a youngster in the latter stages of pregnancy when you could get run over by sheep; also the things Caroline listed. There are handlers here in the US and the UK who are well known for their children who come along to trials and even work dogs. Enjoy the process and continue to enjoy the things you love to do. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laura L Posted November 16, 2009 Report Share Posted November 16, 2009 Both of my kids (now 16 & 17) grew up in a dairy goat barn & print shop. I worked in the dairy barn during my first pregnancy & pitched out some pens the day before I went into labor. The day after, I was back to milking my son would sleep in his car seat. My daughter was the same way. The kids have been around dogs, cats, sheep, goats & cattle all their lives. I have pictures of Jenn Berger running in open at our trial with Max strapped on her back. He's been coming to trials for as long as I've known him. Wendy Peters' kids have been at trials as long as I've known her too. Personally I think that kids who raised this way seem to be more self reliant and can entertain themselves without any problems. And I'd like to second what Caroline said there in her 5 rules, all good ones there! Laura Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shysheperdess Posted November 17, 2009 Report Share Posted November 17, 2009 I am a young single mom of two in my mid-twenties. I had my first child when I was eighteen, finished school often holding down two jobs and I trained and trial my bc's. I got my first dog shortly after the birth of my first son and was just fell in love with training and eventually trialing!!! I had to make big sacrifices and be creative about getting to sheep, but my children love seeing mo doing something she loves!!! I am a better happier parent because of it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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