Auto immune disease? Anyone else dealing with this?

[Tommy Coyote]

Tommy has auto immune disease. Vet is calling it polyarthritis. I've read everything I could find and her symptoms sure sound like that is what this is. Fever and shifting lameness. All the tick borne tests came back negative.

 

It started with a high fever and a stiff jaw. Now one joint just above her foot is involved and so are her back legs. She looks like a 90 year old trying to get around.

 

She is on prednisone twice a day and doxy and pain medication. She gets better and seems to feel a little better and then she is all stove up again. I think the fever is gone now and she seems to feel OK - not sick. She eats well and is alert and interested in stuff. But getting around is a real problem.

 

Prognosis? Who knows. She might get better and she might not. I'm trying to keep her as quiet as possible to let her joints heal.

 

Has anyone else tried to deal with this stuff? I'm taking her for a second opinion this afternoon.

[bcnewe2]

I really think this sounds like TBD's. How long has she been on the Doxy?

Good luck and let us know how the 2nd opinion goes.

[Tommy Coyote]

I really think this sounds like TBD's. How long has she been on the Doxy?

Good luck and let us know how the 2nd opinion goes.

This is her third week on the doxy. And her third week on the high dose prednisone.

 

It would be such a relief to me if this was TBD - then I would at least have some hope. No one really knows what causes the polyarthritis. It could have been something as simple as her puppy shots that started it. This whole thing blew up about a day after I gave her Sentinel. It might have been a combination of the two.

 

One of my customers is a pediatrician and I was talking to her this morning. Polyarthritis is like Rheumatoid arthritis in people. She said it can take weeks. And to keep her just as quiet as possible. I'm trying but its hard with a one year old dog. She starts to feel better and then she wants to move.

 

I just want her to get better. I want my dog back.

[Debbie Meier]

I sure hope the second opinion gets you more answers and with any luck good news. It's heartbreaking to see our dogs in pain and discomfort, especially the young ones. My fingers are crossed that this crisis passes, Tommy get's better and your dog comes back soon.

 

Deb

[bcnewe2]

Is it something that's genetic?

[SoloRiver]

If it were a TBD you would see almost immediate relief with the doxy. Sorry to hear about Tommy's illness.

[Tommy Coyote]

Is it something that's genetic?

As I understand it there can be a genetic link but not always. One thing I read said that linebred dogs are at higher risk.

 

Poor Tommy can hardly get around today. Its her front foot and also one of her hips. She is really having trouble laying down. She just turns and turns and then just sort of falls down. She was better yesterday afternoon - was getting around quite a bit better. And then today she is awful. I always start to get my hopes up when she is better and then she just crashes again. We have had some really cold air move in here and I kind of wonder if the weather changes may be making a difference.

 

I'm going to see if there is more we can do for the pain but that is a two edged sword. If she feels better and moves around more then it does more damage to her swollen joints.

 

This is just killing me. I have never felt so helpless in my life.

[bcnewe2]

I dunno Melanie

Mick's TBD's were to the chronic stage. Doxy didn't really work for at least a month. Not enough to call him symptom free for several months. Took almost 2 years for him to get to his level of normal. He went undaig. for at least 8 months and had been misdaig. several times till I wised up and asked for a test and Doxy.

It is so heart wrenching to see a young do suffer so.

Prayers for Tommy

[Tommy Coyote]

I dunno Melanie

Mick's TBD's were to the chronic stage. Doxy didn't really work for at least a month. Not enough to call him symptom free for several months. Took almost 2 years for him to get to his level of normal. He went undaig. for at least 8 months and had been misdaig. several times till I wised up and asked for a test and Doxy.

It is so heart wrenching to see a young do suffer so.

Prayers for Tommy

They use Doxy for polyarthritis, too. And she was on Clavamox for 2 weeks. At least that awful fever is gone - that has to be a good thing. And she is eating really well - never did lose her appetite. Now it just seems to be the pain in her joints.

 

I might not remember this exactly right but I think Bill Berhow's Jaffe had Rocky Mountain Spotted fever. He left him at one of the vet schools and I think he was there for at least a month. And then her still wasn't up to par for a long time. I saw him after he was back with Bill and he still didn't feel very well. I think he eventually got over it but it took a while.

[bcnewe2]

I re ready your posts, are you giving her anything for the pain? Mick did very well on Bute (not recommended for dogs) and he does quite well on Deramexx and tramadol now if he has a flair up of Spond. or the dozen or so other things that cause him pain. HE on the other hand really never knows he's bad off. He just keeps plodding along.

When watching him romp with his siters or play mean dog to the LGD's I've learned to appricate each thing and day that has something in it other than a down/sick dog.

 

Maybe ask the vet for something to make her feel a bit better if you don't have anything for her now, but I"m assuming the pred. is supposed to make her feel better too?

I know all about getting your hopes up to have them crushed. Hopefully she'll recover but while she is down take the little good steps or days as a gain. Treat each day as a new day and it'll get easier on you both.

Tommy isn't line bred is she? I need to do some research to understand what you're going though.

Prayers to you

[Tommy Coyote]

I re ready your posts, are you giving her anything for the pain? Mick did very well on Bute (not recommended for dogs) and he does quite well on Deramexx and tramadol now if he has a flair up of Spond. or the dozen or so other things that cause him pain. HE on the other hand really never knows he's bad off. He just keeps plodding along.

When watching him romp with his siters or play mean dog to the LGD's I've learned to appricate each thing and day that has something in it other than a down/sick dog.

 

Maybe ask the vet for something to make her feel a bit better if you don't have anything for her now, but I"m assuming the pred. is supposed to make her feel better too?

I know all about getting your hopes up to have them crushed. Hopefully she'll recover but while she is down take the little good steps or days as a gain. Treat each day as a new day and it'll get easier on you both.

Tommy isn't line bred is she? I need to do some research to understand what you're going though.

Prayers to you

[Tommy Coyote]

I don't know if she is line bred or not. Her pedigree is all Scottish dogs from all over Scotland. I am not familiar with those dogs. Her mother is first generation and her father is an import. Its all different breeders from over there.

 

I've talked to Kathy Knox once when Tommy first got sick and she just didn't have any idea - I don't think there is any history of this in their lines. But who knows. It could be there and they might no even know it.

[Journey]

I might not remember this exactly right but I think Bill Berhow's Jaffe had Rocky Mountain Spotted fever. He left him at one of the vet schools and I think he was there for at least a month. And then her still wasn't up to par for a long time. I saw him after he was back with Bill and he still didn't feel very well. I think he eventually got over it but it took a while.

 

No, it wasn't Jaffe. It was Nick and it wasn't RMSF either it was Valley Fever. Yes, he did make a full recovery. And if I recall it was UVa that treated him and they were momentarily stumped as it's not generally seen in that part of the country.

[bcnewe2]

just a little bit of research and it looks like Tommy should recover. The timing with her vac. seems like it might be that kind.

Good luck and keep us posted.

And I know of no dogs in the Knox's lines that are having any issues like these, if that makes you feel any better. Looks to me the lesser of the 2 evils is the type that is related to vacines.

[Tommy Coyote]

just a little bit of research and it looks like Tommy should recover. The timing with her vac. seems like it might be that kind.

Good luck and keep us posted.

And I know of no dogs in the Knox's lines that are having any issues like these, if that makes you feel any better. Looks to me the lesser of the 2 evils is the type that is related to vacines.

She would have had her last vaccine probably in January? The only other thing she has had was the Sentinel - my vets have both said that is a really safe medication. But I have to wonder when she came down with this a day or two after I gave it to her. Like maybe she had a reaction to the vaccines but it didn't all blow up until she got the Sentinel? And that tipped her over the edge.

 

No more vaccines for her!

 

Do you think the fact that she is a white dog might make her more susceptible? She is not all white - has a black mask and ears and one black leg. One vet asked me about that and I just didn't know. I know so little about genetics.

[Lenajo]

Doxy, if it is going to work, does so very quickly. So quickly that people tend to stop the dose too early thinking the dog is "well"

 

Did you ever get a holistic vet involved. Sometimes all too often, you will never be granted a diagnosis and treating by symptom is all that can be done. In that, broad mind holistic dvm specialists are often godsends.

 

I currently have a dog with RMSF that is being treated without doxycycline on the advice of 2 very good vets. He's doing marvelously and we have hopes for as full a recovery as possible with tbd. He's about 45 days into treatment and has a good coat and mental state for the first time is a over a year.

 

Acupucuture can do wonders for inflammatory joint pain.

 

IF this dog has an autoimmune disease you would never want to give her any potentiated sulfonamides drugs or NSAID drugs with similar properties such as Deramaxx or Rimadyl. These drugs can trigger autoimmune crisis such as autoimmune hemolytic anemia (AIHA).

 

You also need to look into getting a complete thryoid panel, by Michigan State or Antech/California/Dodds DVM. Low thyroid is another trigger for converting to auti-immune illness. Dodds also is very willing and kind (aka free) to consult with your vet by email/phone to help diagnosis your dog's problems and course of treatment.

 

A good list of the drugs that can be of issue are here The site references Dobermans, but the advice is the same and appears current with what i was taught via a recent Dodds DVM seminar at Rutgers University.

 

What you can't do is *wait*.. Not on a local vet to drag around to another idea...for this to magically get better with "I hope this works" treatment...or internet suggestions. Polyarthritis is very serious, and ever hour is more damage to her growing joints. Get a battle plan - email Dodds through Hemopet, get a thryoid panel off asap.

[Tommy Coyote]

No, it wasn't Jaffe. It was Nick and it wasn't RMSF either it was Valley Fever. Yes, he did make a full recovery. And if I recall it was UVa that treated him and they were momentarily stumped as it's not generally seen in that part of the country.

No, this was Jaffe. That I do remember. I was around him for several days. Nick got sick later from something else.

[Tommy Coyote]

Doxy, if it is going to work, does so very quickly. So quickly that people tend to stop the dose too early thinking the dog is "well"

 

Did you ever get a holistic vet involved. Sometimes all too often, you will never be granted a diagnosis and treating by symptom is all that can be done. In that, broad mind holistic dvm specialists are often godsends.

 

I currently have a dog with RMSF that is being treated without doxycycline on the advice of 2 very good vets. He's doing marvelously and we have hopes for as full a recovery as possible with tbd. He's about 45 days into treatment and has a good coat and mental state for the first time is a over a year.

 

Acupucuture can do wonders for inflammatory joint pain.

 

IF this dog has an autoimmune disease you would never want to give her any potentiated sulfonamides drugs or NSAID drugs with similar properties such as Deramaxx or Rimadyl. These drugs can trigger autoimmune crisis such as autoimmune hemolytic anemia (AIHA).

 

You also need to look into getting a complete thryoid panel, by Michigan State or Antech/California/Dodds DVM. Low thyroid is another trigger for converting to auti-immune illness. Dodds also is very willing and kind (aka free) to consult with your vet by email/phone to help diagnosis your dog's problems and course of treatment.

 

A good list of the drugs that can be of issue are here The site references Dobermans, but the advice is the same and appears current with what i was taught via a recent Dodds DVM seminar at Rutgers University.

 

What you can't do is *wait*.. Not on a local vet to drag around to another idea...for this to magically get better with "I hope this works" treatment...or internet suggestions. Polyarthritis is very serious, and ever hour is more damage to her growing joints. Get a battle plan - email Dodds through Hemopet, get a thryoid panel off asap.

[bcnewe2]

Hey Wendy

What is your vet treating RMSF with?

BTW Mick was on Doxy for 3 months then another round a couple months later. It took him a long time to be symptom free but he also had 3 TBD's at once or at least tested positive for 3.

 

Keep us posted TC

 

ETA...no I don't think being white factored is part of the issue but what do I know.

[Tommy Coyote]

I just got back from my vet. He said its auto immune. She has lost a lot of muscle mass. I guess that is one of the big give-a-ways. Plus all of her tests. He just said to keep up the prednisone twice a day and she still has a few more days on the Doxy. And wait. It takes time. But its not hopeless. He said she will have good days and bad days so not to panic. One other dog he treated did end up with damage to the bones in its feet and walked funny but it has lived for years. He also said to take her for short leash walks to keep the rest of her muscles from deteriorating even more.

 

He doubled her pain medicine and said the same thing about having to be really careful about what she takes because of the prednisone. No aspirin or NSAIDS. He's going to research and see if there is something else we can use for the pain.

 

I do have a call into the holistic vet here to see if she thinks accupuncture will help with the pain and swelling. I asked my vet about it and he said it sure can't hurt.

 

She had blood work done and that was all OK except for a high white blood cell count. I did not specifically ask about thyroid but I will.

 

What a mess.

[Kathy Chittenden]

If it is an autoimmune disorder resembling Rheumatoid Arthritis in humans please double check with him on the exercise restrictions.

 

I have RA and am encouraged to exercise as much as possible. I actually feel much better on those days when I keep going as opposed to days when I sit a full day at work.

 

Good luck, it does get better with time and the right combo of meds...

 

Kathy

[Tommy Coyote]

If it is an autoimmune disorder resembling Rheumatoid Arthritis in humans please double check with him on the exercise restrictions.

 

I have RA and am encouraged to exercise as much as possible. I actually feel much better on those days when I keep going as opposed to days when I sit a full day at work.

 

Good luck, it does get better with time and the right combo of meds...

 

Kathy

You know I wondered about that myself. Tommy was so bad yesterday. Then I had to get her up to the vet and she had to walk around for a while. She was much better the rest of the afternoon.

 

She is doing much better this morning, too. I think we will just start off walking a little and just kind of see how it goes. I do know that if she over does it then she has a bad time the next day so I'm thinking no running just walking for a while maybe several times a day - little doses and see what happens.

[Lenajo]

Hey Wendy

What is your vet treating RMSF with?

BTW Mick was on Doxy for 3 months then another round a couple months later. It took him a long time to be symptom free but he also had 3 TBD's at once or at least tested positive for 3.

 

Keep us posted TC

 

ETA...no I don't think being white factored is part of the issue but what do I know.

 

Oregeno oil 300mg twice daily, and thyroid support. After 1.5 months he's the happy glowing dog I haven't seen in several years. He's also gotten lazer acupuncture and homeopathics for symptoms as they presented. The vet cleared him for antibiotic, Baytril, for a burst dose starting next week.

 

2 different clinic's holistic vets say "no doxy!" for this particular dog because of some sort of intolerance he has - likely genetic because his dam couldn't tolerate it either. Neither vet btw, has a problem with doxy in most cases, so it's not just a case of their dogma being pushed upon their clients at the expense of the individual dog.

 

I can't strees to TC enough, any person with a very sick dog really, to not accept a single opinion or be shrugged off by a vet with an attitude of defeat and resignation to illness. If you don't fight for you dog, nobody will.

 

As to the genetic component, I don't suppose you can rule anything completely out, but it's only a portion of why a dog develops an autoimmune disease. There is 4 interlocking components - viral exposure to stress the immune system (naturally or through vaccination), stress (traveling, competing, home environment), hormonal changes (heat cycles, breeding, exposure to dogs that are), and genetics. A big stresser in one area can do it, but usually its a combination of 2 or 3.

 

Dogs that are of dilute coloration (blue, slate, lilac etc), excessive white, or merle are at known greater risk of developing autoimmune disease. Excessive white is not just white factored, but dogs that primarily body white. Again though, this is just a part of what *might* triggers this stuff.

 

Spayed and neutered dogs are at greater risk as well. They don't know why - it's just part of the numbers generating on this stuff.

[Ooky]

Just wanted to say best wishes and mojo to you and Tommy - hopefully the meds can get her immune system under control very quickly. Please keep us updated.

 

I know some systemic auto immune diseases like lupus get worse when a person is exposed to sunlight. I don't know much about RA/polyarthritis, but does anyone here know if keeping her out of the direct sun as much as possible (for now) would help any?

[Shetlander]

I can't strees to TC enough, any person with a very sick dog really, to not accept a single opinion or be shrugged off by a vet with an attitude of defeat and resignation to illness. If you don't fight for you dog, nobody will.

 

That is the god's truth. When your dog develops a problem that is off the beaten path, you really need to become an extremely active partner in finding the correct diagnosis and treatment. No one knows your dog better than you and no one cares more than you do.