Dog breed discrimination?

[Flamincomet]

Spirit seems to discriminate against most boxers, pit bull types, rotties, and similar breeds. I think her reactions are mostly fear based. She doesn't go out of her way to go after them, she only reacts when they come up to her and are invading her space. She allows them to sniff her on a meet and greet, but is VERY stiff, and if they push it further than that, she will communicate very clearly with head turns, avoidance, lip curls, growling, and snapping (as a last resort) that she wants nothing to do with them. She has never hurt another dog when she snaps at them, I haven't even seen a scratch left, but it really freaks the dog's owners out, and she is of course labeled as a mean "aggressive" dog. This is especially a problem right now because my husband and I are in the process of buying a house right now, and we are staying at his relatives, who have a boxer and pit bull type mix. Introductions went exactly as I described above, they met one at a time, and the result was the same. I tried getting in between them and backing the other dog off, but they are pretty clueless. Spirit was hiding behind me most of the time, so I know she feels very uncomfortable and insecure about the situation.

 

I have had a lot of people recommend treating her with high value rewards when she is acting semi-calm around dogs of these breeds, but in this situation it is very hard to do that, since they are constantly around and pushing into her space. The owners of the dogs are not very dog savy about behavior, and don't really understand that their dogs are being rude. The dogs are allowed free range of the home, and have very few rules and boundries. I feel very grateful to them for letting us stay here with our dog, 2 cats AND my rats, so I don't really want to push them and cause hurt feelings. And right now we have complete access to the upstairs, and their dogs are not allowed up here, so Spirit has been basically spending all of her time up here, except when I take her down to go potty or work with her outside.

 

Right now what I'm doing, is when I walk downstairs with her, as soon as she sees the other dog(s) she gets a treat, and we are out of there. They aren't really given the opportunity to harass her, and she isn't in a position where she feels she needs to defend herself.

 

Does this sound like a good plan? I'm open to other ideas and advice as well and would love to hear it. Also other ideas for how to deal when we're just living our day to day lives and dog breeds like this show up are very much appreciated.

 

Thanks,

Autumn

[sea4th]

Spirit seems to discriminate against most boxers, pit bull types, rotties, and similar breeds. I think her reactions are mostly fear based. She doesn't go out of her way to go after them, she only reacts when they come up to her and are invading her space.

 

Herein lies your answer. "invading her space". If she is sending clear messages that they are not welcome, and not fighting with them, then I think she is entitled to not particularly care for these dogs. From your description, she is in complete control, conveying a message to other dogs that she doesn't want to be bothered. Who the heck cares if someone thinks that she is mean and aggressive. They need to keep their dogs out of her space, and as her owner, I think all you need to do is support her on that issue. She shouldn't have to tolerate dogs she doesn't care for in her space. All you need to do is expect good manners on her part, and not expect her to like every dog who invades her space. And those who label her as "aggressive", then they themselves have a lot to learn.

 

I'm with your dog on this one.

[Flamincomet]

I agree with you sea4th, and I'm not expecting her to like every dog she meets. But. I am active in performance events, I compete in rally obedience, and would like to compete in agility, as well as possibly therapy dog work. I simply am asking if it is possible to get her to be more tolerant. We can get kicked out of agility and obedience classes for that type of behavior, and it certainly wouldn't be a good thing if that happened in a therapy dog situation. Also, in this particular situation, Spirit went up to one of the owners for pets, and the other dog bullied on over, and when Spirit snapped to tell the dog off, it was mighty close to a hand. Even if she just accidentally bites someone, it wouldn't exactly go over well if I said, "well, your dog was being pushy and scared my dog." I do my best to make sure she doesn't have her space invaded, and after it was clear that these dogs weren't going to listen to myself, their owners, and certainly not Spirit, I removed her from the situation, and am working hard to not put her in that situation again.

 

Autumn

[sea4th]

I agree with you sea4th, and I'm not expecting her to like every dog she meets. But. I am active in performance events, I compete in rally obedience, and would like to compete in agility, as well as possibly therapy dog work. I simply am asking if it is possible to get her to be more tolerant. We can get kicked out of agility and obedience classes for that type of behavior, and it certainly wouldn't be a good thing if that happened in a therapy dog situation. Also, in this particular situation, Spirit went up to one of the owners for pets, and the other dog bullied on over, and when Spirit snapped to tell the dog off, it was mighty close to a hand. Even if she just accidentally bites someone, it wouldn't exactly go over well if I said, "well, your dog was being pushy and scared my dog." I do my best to make sure she doesn't have her space invaded, and after it was clear that these dogs weren't going to listen to myself, their owners, and certainly not Spirit, I removed her from the situation, and am working hard to not put her in that situation again.

Autumn

 

OK. I see. I think you're doing everything you can by avoiding situations that might elicit reactions like that. I've had therapy dogs myself -- 5 of them to be exact and I remember a couple of dogs in our group whose handlers would advise others that their dogs didn't like their space invaded and we respected that. A therapy dog doesn't need to like other dogs, only people, but I do see your concern if there is a hand in the way.

 

I think that answer is probably not so much in expecting her to be more tolerant but instead shifting the focus of what you expect from her to something besides a dog in her vicinity.

 

One thing I would do is teach her "watch me" and increase the difficulty of watching you with distractions to proof her on her "watch me". Once she's got "watch me" down, then a dog bumping into her hopefully will not become as important as what you two are working on --- i.e., watch me.

 

I'd also be ever vigilant of her body language, where her attention is in addition to how close other dogs might be getting to us. If I were in your place, first priority would be to keep her and others safe and I wouldn't hesitate to ask someone to keep their dog close because mine doesn't care for other dogs. Sometimes people need to be reminded. I'd do all of this because I really don't know of a way to teach my dog to tolerate certain behaviors in other dogs. So that's my solution -- be vigilant and don't hesitate to speak up to avoid a situation or just remove her.

 

I'd like to hear what others have to say on this as well.

 

Oh, and for FWIW, my dogs hate boxers too.

[BCjetta]

Both my BC and aussie have similar feelings towards the above mentioned breeds. I think that some of them (the boxers for sure) have a very upright stance and powerful chest area which looks more intimidating to another dog. Even if they aren't trying, they come across as more assertive and intimidating. My BC is 11 and she's still intolerant of pushy dogs.

[Alaska]

Two words: "Control Unleashed"

 

Also, I have never been in an agility class where dogs were expected to tolerate other dogs coming into their space. If your dog does not appreciate boxers, you should be able to manage her in class so no boxer comes into her space. At trials, where dogs can get crowded together while waiting their turn, she will need to tolerate dogs being near her and that's where the CU training will help, but at trials it is still considered bad manners for someone to allow their dog to interact with another uninvited.

 

In your temporary housing situation, I would start by keeping the dogs separated (baby gates, fed in different rooms, yard privileges at different times, etc.). Going on parallel walks together (both dogs on leash, walking the same direction but far enough apart laterally that neither dog is obviously concerned by the other) sometimes allows the dogs to surreptitiously observe each other and come to the conclusion that maybe the other dog isn't so scary, but don't push it. While on a parallel walk, the dogs should never be close enough to each other that either one shows any sign of stress.

 

Re Spirit going up to a person for pets, she should not be making that decision for herself. Her attention should be on you, unless you specifically direct her to greet another person or dog, and of course you shouldn't do that if there is any chance of a boxer intervening.

 

So it's a combination of good management on your part to avoid putting her in stressful situations, teaching the CU games so she can better cope with stress, and over time, with consistent application of those two strategies, it's possible that she will become less stressed by other dogs entering her space. For now, I would focus on the management (i.e. keeping her away from other problem dogs) and CU.

 

And yes, border collies and boxers simply don't speak the same body language. It's a common problem.

[mbc1963]

My dog also - boxers, rotties, pit bulls, etc.. In my eyes, it has to do with the powerful chest and resulting walk, which looks very much like a "power strut" to me and, I suspect, looks even more so to my dog.

 

I honestly don't try to correct Buddy for snapping at dogs who are pushy and in his face. I do correct behaviors I see as "bad" or "wrong," but telling someone who's being rude that they're being rude isn't bad. Here's the great oft-quoted article from Suzanne Clothier, for your boxer-owning friends:

 

http://www.nesr.info/images-english-shephe...s-to-say-hi.pdf

 

I call out ahead of myself, "My dog is very grouchy!" Then I figure it's up to the other owners to show whether they're clueless or clueful. If they let their boxer (pit bull/young lab/doberman) charge at my dog, and my dog snarls, shame on them. Usually, the other dogs will realize their mistake and back right off - which is how the interaction is supposed to play out. (Buddy never approaches a dog whos's snarling or showing the least bit of defensive posturing.) We rarely have trouble, with the other dog choosing to ignore the snarl or fight Buddy, though when the other dog doesn't back off, it causes panic in me. (My dog on-leash fighting with your dog off-leash is NOT COOL.)

 

With my dog, though, I am able to get him to see past initial prejudices against dogs we're going to deal with frequently. If the other owner is willing to drop high-value treats, Buddy will learn to L-O-V-E the approach of pretty much any dog within a couple meetings. That doesn't mean he won't snarl if the other dog is rude, though - he'll just happily tolerate the presence of the other dog for the reward of the chicken.

 

Good luck!

 

Mary

[Cynthia P]

last weekend at a SDT we had our Giant Schnauzer (big black...and a boy) at the trial; He is very well behaved, is used to border collies, but the looks the border collies had for him.

 

He was not invading their space, a oouple of them wouldn't call back to their owners (which is highly unusual); one old guy walked past Sergeant with his head turned until he passed Sergeants' butt..and quickly turned around to sniff. What the heck is that thing

 

The dogs at this trial found Sergeant highly unusual and reacted far sooner than they would with another BC or one of the little dogs people bring to trials (jacks, border terrorists, hummer the daschund).

 

I would enlist the help of some at your club/lessons; do some of the walking in the same direction with the dogs on opposite sides of you, eventually walking together; than practice the same thing walking towards each other. Use a bully dog that is well behaved and won't react. Than rinse and repeat with another dog.

 

BTW, my Giant schnauzer doesn't particularly like boxers either....

 

Cynthia

[MicheleS.]

I have an aussie who is intolerant of any rude, pushy dogs or dogs that seem out of control to her. I have done what a couple of others suggested here and have been able to manage that with teaching her to divert her focus to me and used a food reward for ignoring the other dogs. (I've also used this diversion with my GSD who was a naughty boy who liked to *stare-down* other dogs when he was young.) Both of these dogs learned very quickly to automatically look at me when they see *trouble* heading our way.

I too was very vigilent in making sure I didn't put her in situations I knew would cause her stress. I managed the situation and was not afraid to let people know of her issues with pushy dogs. (Yes, I do blame it on her being *grouchy*, which isn't true but sometimes I just don't want to give any further explanation.)

If I'm asking my dog to completely focus on me and ignore the environment, I see it as my responsibility to make sure she is safe and comfortable.

 

 

Good luck!

Michele &

Hughie &

Gypsy &

Chase

[Root Beer]

Even my dog who has a pretty near perfect temperament has issues with some dogs coming into her space - especially when she is in a crate and the other dog is loose. All she does is bark at them, but the message is clear - "back off".

 

When I see that she is uncomfortable with a dog approaching her (which is extremely rare, but it happens, usually with a Lab in her case), the owner gets one warning - "Please keep your dog back or my dog will bark". If I am ignored and the dog owner continues to approach or let the dog drift over toward her, she barks, and as far as I'm concerned, it's fair. A few people have gotten offended, but that's just tough.

 

Now, with Speedy it's a whole 'nother matter entirely. Nobody allows their dog to approach him unless I say so, period. He doesn't like dogs in his space, so I don't allow them in his space. And I can't count the number of trials, competitions, and demo performances we've done.

 

I second Alaska's recommendation for Control Unleashed. The exercises and games in the program have helped all of my dogs become far more tolerant of other dogs crowding in on them. No, Speedy still won't tolerate a dog who sticks it's nose in his face or anywhere else, but generally if they pass by minding their business, they can be within inches and he doesn't care.

 

"Watch me" can help - I used it with Speedy for years and we managed with it - but it can only go so far. What happens when you don't remember to tell your dog to "watch"? What happens when the dog simply needs to look? Imagine being worried about something and being prevented from getting information about that thing - most would worry about it even more!! The other dog is there and our dogs know it! In Control Unleashed the dog learns structures that give him information about the other dog and provide a set structure for the dog to see it, acknowledge it, and move on with life. It's pretty cool!

 

I really strive to strike a balance between helping the dog learn to tolerate dogs nearby to a reasonable extent and being firm with owners who need to understand to keep back. This has worked.

[Sue R]

My dogs, like many mentioned here, do not care for the very upright and/or staring (big round eyes, flat face) dogs. Neither do they like dogs like the Bouvier, that is also upright and staring, but with a hairy face that makes it hard to read their expression.

 

The strangest "discrimination" of all that I have experienced was with our old Rocket. He was jumped by a GSD while working loose cattle one day. He sent the dog packing and went right back to work, but the GSD didn't want to take "no" for an answer and came back once or twice before we were able to chase him off and his owners got him under control.

 

For the rest of his life, Rocket despised GSDs. When virtually blind, and tethered out of sight of a GSD mix one day, I saw him react with hackles raised and a defensive posture as the scent of this GSD-cross reached him. There was no way he could see the dog, he could only smell him. I can only surmise that he could differentiate the dog's breed by scent, and it was a mixed-breed (although obviously part GSD by appearance).

 

My dogs also don't tend to care for breeds that seem to have lost their "dog language skills" or have poor socialization - in this day and age, that seems to include many Goldens, Labs, and other popular pet dogs.

[ejano]

You've posed an interesting question for me as well as I've been wrestling with a problem with a Staffordshire Bull Terrier in our CGC class. The dog has no business being there; the owner found it as a stray so it has no history, and she lacks the ability to come down on the dog when it needs correction. The dog has snapped at Robin twice during those same meet and greet sessions and she's not going to get a third chance. I'm simply going to refuse to do it with her because each time it escalates.

 

The first incident I forgave because Robin was staring at the dog and might have provoked it unintentionally, but he also stared at the Irish Wolfhound, the Anatolian Shepherd, the Husky, and the cute little Aussie lass next to him as well as all of the dogs working in the next ring. None of them threatened to bite his head off. Now, what have I done to Robin by letting it happen a second time? I was informed by the instructor that Robin would be okay and not have a problem with other dogs of this type if I don't act afraid or worried. Hah! My dog is smart enough to know when he's being threatened and so is yours. It's mightily unfair that judges refuse to recognize that some dog breeds just don't mix well and would attempt to penalize your dog for protecting herself from a potential attack, whether it be a real threat or just not wanting to take any chances.

[Flamincomet]

Thanks for the tips and advice everyone! Although I do have to smack my forehead, I own Control Unleashed and have read it through a couple of times, for my previous very reactive BC who I no longer own. I never thought to apply that to Spirit as well, though it seems only obvious now.

 

Autumn

[sea4th]

I've never heard of "control unleashed". It's going on my "must read" list now.

[Ms.DaisyDuke]

There is a good chance that after a little bit of work, she'll be able to remove herself from the situation. I know what pushy, bad mannered dogs are like. You should also just try to speak with the owners a little bit? Tell them their dogs have bad manners...in a nicer way than that...maybe suggest doggy daycare? Dogs can learn lots of manners at those places!

 

My dog is reactive to other dogs and we foster dogs. It's a funny situation, but Daisy quickly learned to remove her self if she was feeling uncomfortable. I think a lot of it has to do with the first foster we had. She was actually quite a dominant female and they did get into a couple of scraps, because Daisy was being mouthy. The foster dog put her in her place and that was that. Daisy quickly learned that if Kya was around and she was feeling unsure of the situation she could come to me and get rewarded for not being snotty. The new foster dog is less than smart and not dominant at all, but Daisy will still remove herself from any situation that is too stressful for her. I do however, verbally correct her for any behaviours that are not acceptable like nipping when they are playing outside, barking at the foster dog when she comes into my bed room etc. but other than that, they can learn to tolerate other dogs in the vicinity quite easily, but shouldn't be forced to interact with another dog they don't like or is rude!

[Flamincomet]

Update on Spirit! She is doing much better, mostly because the other dogs are minding more and giving her space, but if they decide they want to come up for sniffs anyways I just get in between them and walk towards them which backs them off pretty effectively. We are still upstairs most of the time while we're home, but when we go downstairs it's not a mad dash to the door. Today I stopped in the kitchen and got something to drink and had no problems! Spirit does absolutely perfect around them as long as they aren't invading her space, she isn't looking for a fight or anything.

 

Very happy with that.

 

Autumn

[ejano]

What happens when the dog simply needs to look? Imagine being worried about something and being prevented from getting information about that thing - most would worry about it even more!!

 

Kristen,

a very good point. Like any curious, sentient being, the dog has a right to look at and assess the "thing" crossing its path, in order to be able to comfortably ignore it, especially a Border Collie who very quickly can convince himself that a shadow is a bear. Brodie is starting obedience class now that Robin is finished and I know the instructor is going to nail him for "Challenging" when he is really just curious. If he were giving a challenge, he'd look completely different than just sitting there watching the show...

 

Liz

[Megs]

My boy also seems to dislike Rotties ALOT! I attended a dog physio course over the weekend and as I was taking my boy out the back of my bakkie, I didn't see the two rotties standing behind me, of course it was too late and he leaped out the bakkie and tried to attack the rotti's before I had him on lead. No'one was hurt, it was more noise than anything but I just don't understand it.