Four on the Floor Contact Training Method

[Rave]

I'm looking to retrain Rave using the 4OTF method. I'm not happy seeing her hit the 2o/2o, and am also wanting to use her as an experiment before I train the next pup with the 4OTF method.

 

So anyone who's taught this method, I'd love to hear any tips, tricks, and thoughts you have about the method. Things to watch out for would be most helpful. I've read Ann Croft's article and will be borrowing her DVD to watch as well.

 

Thanks!

[Pat W.]

I haven't trained it but have seen it used, I was not that impressed by it, have you considered the ORT (one rear toe) method? My youngster was offering it naturally when we were training contacts, I was asking for 2o2o but accepted the the ORT after talking to my trainer who suggested it might be more comfortable for him. Eventually he dropped the ORT and is completely 2o2o.

[in2adventure]

I'm in the process of teaching Grady this or something of the sort. Not having a ton of luck, but I think most of it is lack of current training time. He blows the end of the obsticals pretty bad right now and is SO fast over them, I don't have time to slow him down or control the end result because I can't reach him in time.

 

Currently this is what my trainer wants/has us doing:

 

Shaping him to a mat of some kind without the contact equipment in the picture.

place the mat 3-4 feet away from the bottom of the obstical so he runs to it and lies down.

eventually move the mat closer to the obstical so as he reaches the bottom he'll automatically lie down on it, thus slowing him down at the bottom to touch his contact and give me a second to catch up.

 

Currently what is happening:

 

He still blows every contact because he's SO excited to be running on it, he doesn't even see the mat. (by the way, he hates the mat ) My clicker happy puppy trainer thinks this is normal (this is NOT the same trainer I use for Lucia and Grady has his last class with clicker lady tomarrow).

 

What I've changed/accomplished in the last two weeks:

 

He's obsessed with the frisbee and loves to touch it (goofball won't bring it back when I thow it though). I clicker trained him to put both front feet on it and touch it with his nose everytime he sees it.

I added the contact training board (4'x12") and have him run across it and then touch the frisbee which is placed about 4-5 feet away from the end. He's driving to touch the fribee

I've gotten him to the point where the frisbee is only 6" from the end of the training board and drives across the board and stops to touch the frisbee which leave him still on the board.

 

There is a practice agility run-through session tonight and I'll be trying the technique on the real stuff then. He's pretty good about transfering his training session over to the real stuff. I'll let you know how it works out. I know this probably wasn't what you had in mind for 4 on the floor, but this is my modified version.

[Root Beer]

Contacts! The things we do for reliable contacts!

 

Maddie recently started blowing her contacts. She used to be slow as molassas over her contacts and missing them was never an issue. All of a sudden she's Little-Miss-Leap-Over-the-Yellow!

 

Upon my instructor's advice, I've gone with the Rachael Saunders box. I had started training her on this before, but abandoned it because she is never going to get the striding part. My instructor advised that we use it simply to teach her the value of getting her paws in the yellow.

 

So far it's working out great. She absolutely adores her box and she is once again driving close to the end of the board before her dismount.

 

This has nothing to do with the method that the OP asked about. I just marvel a bit at the things we do for contacts!!

[Rave]

WHY weren't you impressed by it Pat? And have you seen more than one dog doing it? When taught correctly, it should be just slightly slower than a true running contact and much easier on the dog's body than a 2o/2o.

[in2adventure]

Both dogs did awesome at their run-throughs tonight. It was probably the most self controlled runs Grady has done so far. His contacts still sucked We practiced touching the frisbee before the runs, even put it with a practice board, graduated to the dog walk where he did great touches but when it came to the actual run itself, he's was SOOOO over the top he just leaped over the frisbee like it wasn't even there. Didn't even make the attempt to go back and touch it after he missed. He is just so WOOHOO on a course

 

I think this is going to take AWHILE to get into his head. I still think 4OTF is the way to go with him. We just need nore training time with it. I hope others have good suggestions for this.

[Jumpin Boots]

I personally haven't trained 4OTF, but have always felt that for those who do, why don't they just train a running contact instead. Those that I do know that have trained with either of those methods seem to have more success w/ the running contact than 4OTF. Although I haven't seen many people successfully train running contacts either. In watching this it seems that those that have success w/ running contacts have taught their dogs to collect their stride (shorten it) at the end of the equipment. I have known several people who have train 4OTF whose dogs, especially on the a-frame, would leap off the equipment half way down onto the ground in a sort of sliding into home base motion. It seems as though this is just as dangerous as 2o2o.

 

I taught Renoir his contacts by using gates and then back-chaining all contact equipment. By doing this, I didn't require a specific body position, and yes I realize this is against what the majority of trainers say to do. However, I figured that giving him the option lets him figure out what is most comfortable. I trained the gates in a way that he had to stop when in between them, didn't matter where. Then when I transfered the gates onto the equipment and back-chained the gates were placed in such a manor that he had to hit his contact to be in the gates. And back-chaining definately had great impact. I'm in the process of re-training boots using back-chaining, it's a little more difficult as he can't be picked up (issue from his past before I adopted him) but I am already seeing great improvement. I always feel bad for boots, he has had to make up for so many first time handling re-training issues, I know he could have been more successful sooner if I'd had a clue about what I was doing, sorry off topic there.

[Diana A]

I have not seen anyone in my area using 4OTF. I only ever saw it once in an out of state trial, one person had several dogs doing a 4OTF stop in a down position after the contact. All of the dogs were leaping off and then lying on the ground. It didn't work to get the contact, because the dog could do the desired stop on the ground behavior and still miss the contact. To get it to work you'd need the dog to stride through the contact before the stop on the ground (not leap into it). If you're going to teach that, you might as well just teach a running contact.

 

I'm a HUGE fan of one rear toe. The dog comes down lower with the back more level and their focus is on keeping their rear on the contact. I do a lot of training with trying to pull them off with a treat or a tug toy and they lean back into their rears and hang onto the contact, so the weight is more back on the rear. There are no props to fade, no targets (well, the contact itself is the target, but you get to have that in the ring with you). The dog's focus is 'keep the back feet in contact with the ramp', which is EXACTLY what you want. The dog isn't 'accidentally' getting the contact because they're thinking about stopping or touching a target or anything else - they have the exact same goal you do, come down as far as you can but hang onto that contact. This seems very clear to the dog. My first dog I trained this way is almost five and has never ever even come close to missing a contact, and she's FAST and very driven. My puppy isn't doing full height contacts yet, but already I can run past him, throw toys, hang back, run laterally, etc and he hangs onto the contact no matter what. So far I've gotten 100% with this method in competition. Not 99.9%, but 100%. I'd love to teach a running contact someday, but until I see someone demonstrate it can be done with 100% accuracy, I'll stick with what I've got. The nice thing about one-rear-toe is it doesn't rely on muscle memory or repetition. Once the dog gets the concept (which can be done with a practice board in your living room, not even on full height equipment) they seem to really get it and keep it without having to do lots of reps on full height equipment. Cutting back on the reps goes a long way towards reducing stress on the dog's body I think.

 

Whatever method you do, doing a few days or even a week or two of quickie training with a prop and then throwing it into a sequence or a trial environment, just isn't going to work. You need to make sure the dog really understands, and that you're consistent in your expectations. A consistent release goes a long way towards maintaining a consistent contact. The best-taught method in the world will fall apart very quickly if you get sloppy with your releases. There is a DVD out "Bridging the Gap" that is excellent with explaning about the whole consistent release thing.

[Diana A]

He still blows every contact because he's SO excited to be running on it, he doesn't even see the mat. (by the way, he hates the mat ) My clicker happy puppy trainer thinks this is normal

 

Big red flag here - if the dog hates the mat, then it should not be paired with the contact yet. If the dog hates the mat, then something is wrong. I would never in a million years say that it's 'normal' for a dog being clicker trained to 'hate' the object he's being trained on. That flies in the face of the whole clicker concept that the dog thinks the whole thing was their idea and they're actively engaged in trying to figure out what to do to get the reward. Why does he hate the mat? How was it taught? I start my contact training (not 4OTF by the way) with a wide board on the ground and clicker train the dog to just get on it. They quickly learn to love it so much I can't keep them off of it. Then we shape the contact performance (I use 1RTO), then transfer to a narrower practice board, then back chain on the bottom of a contact, and finally to the full piece of equipment. Once the dog really 'gets it' about the position (to the point where the dog will eagerly run across the room and flip himself into his contact position without any help from me whatsoever and I can't pull him out of position no matter what enticements I offer) I've found all the rest of transitioning to equipment to be incredibly easy. Those beginning steps with a clicker and board (or in this case a mat) are so important, and yet that's the part that so many people want to rush over and skip to the next step. Then they leave a big hole in the foundation work that they'll be fighting for that dog's whole agility career.

[Root Beer]

There are no props to fade, no targets

 

This is SO off topic, but I can be really bad that way and they haven't thrown me off the board yet, so here goes!

 

Am I the only person in the world who does not find fading a prop or a target to be an issue? I've never even done it gradually - usually once I can tell that the dog has the idea of what I want, I start to vary asking for the behavior with the prop and then without it. Once the dog is fluent both with and without, it can go away forever unless I want to refresh the behavior by bringing it back at some point.

 

I hear people talk about fading props and targets as if it is this laborious and difficult undertaking. Even my hard headed, difficult to train girl doesn't have any issues with props and targets fading away on her.

 

I love props and targets and my dogs seem to love them, too - and learn fluent behaviors (fluent in the end without the prop or target) very nicely with them.

 

Is this really such a huge issue for some people or is it something that people just say because fading targets and props sounds like a difficult task?

 

Nota Bene: Read my tone in this post as curiously inquisitive. I realize it could come off as snotty, but I don't mean it to be at all!

[Rave]

If I wanted a running contact, I'd teach a running contact. I don't want that, I want a stop. I've been doing and teaching agility long enough and have trained enough dogs of my own and my students to the Masters level with reliable contacts to know how to teach a contact and be familiar with pretty much all the methods out there (including true running contacts, which do NOT alter the dog's stride).

 

I'd like to teach the 4OTF and was looking to chat with others who had taught it. I'm well aware if it's not trained correctly, the dog may leap the contact. That's not what I'm planning to teach. ;-)

[Root Beer]

(including true running contacts, which do NOT alter the dog's stride).

 

Yes, that's what Maddie is learning now. A running contact that does not alter her stride.

 

I'd like to teach the 4OTF and was looking to chat with others who had taught it. I'm well aware if it's not trained correctly, the dog may leap the contact. That's not what I'm planning to teach. ;-)

 

I'm not teaching it, but for the sake of art, I'm interested in discussion of it.

 

So, how do you teach it in such a way that the dog does not end up leaping the contact?

[diane allen]

For Kristine & fading props: I have not had a problem myself doing this. However, I have a friend whose BC was incredibly astute, or just plain stupid. She had to "change" things so gradually, that it might seem to a casual observer that NOTHING was changing. Her target went from (and I'm making these numbers up, but not the idea!) from a 4" square to a 3 & 7/8" square to a 3 & 6/8" square - well, you get the idea. I think it just depends on the dog. OTOH, I suspect that most people fade all that stuff way too fast.

 

Back to topic: I personally have not seen many "top" competitors using the 4OTF method. The ones I have seen - well, it works, but the end result is awfully similar to a running contact. I'm in the process (well, slowly) of teaching Rachel's running contact with the box - I LIKE the end result, and it just seems much more do-able to a "training alone" person like me.

 

diane

[Chan]

Yes, I have just trained 4OTF using Ann Croft's method. I viewed the video and used that method to train my golden. Ann has since made some modifications in the way she teaches the end behavior and those are explained in recent Clean Run articles.

 

My pup was clicker savy and a quick down is one of her default behaviors so teaching the end behavior was fairly easy. Pairing it with the A-frame also went fairly smoothly. I will try to attach a video of her contact in practice and at her first trial. At the trial she started adding more steps on the down ramp of the frame and I'm not sure what that is about - I'm sure its adding a bit of time but I'm hoping she'll settle out into the original behavior after she has a few more trials under her belt. If not, then I'll have to figure out what to do about that. As you can see, she clearly hits the contact zone. Right now, since she is so young and inexperienced I am having her hold her contacts longer than necessary but in the future she will be released quicker. I like having a stop on her. I debated about doing the running contact with Rachel Sander's method but felt like a stop would come in handy for several reasons - she's quick, young and I'm still fairly new at handling (I've been doing this for 2 years but my first dog is slower). I could change this to a running if I felt like it in the future but don't know that I will.

 

IF you have any questions feel free to email me.

 

Chandra

 

Ok, I couldn't get the video of our practice to upload but I do have her first run of her first trial on youtube and the link is below so you can see what it looks like.

 

[Rave]

Thanks Chandra. Do you know what modifications she made and are those on the video? The only CR article I've found was from 2005 I think. can you briefly summarize what she's changed? Thanks for the video.

 

P.s... Nice golden! :-)

[Chan]

So, how do you teach it in such a way that the dog does not end up leaping the contact?

 

You use a hoop of some type in the initial part of the training. The dog is first taught to run to a target and lie down while engaging the target with their foot. Separately the dog is taught to run up and over the A-frame, exiting under the hoop. You then put the two together so that the dog runs up and over the frame, under the hoop and lies down with her foot on the target. A reinforcer (toy) is out in front of the target to keep the focus forward. When the dog completes the behavior you release to the toy and have a tug party. You then gradually fade the props - hoops first, then reinforcer, then the mat.

 

It didn't take that long to train and I throw toys, run by, etc. to proof the behavior. She has 2on/2off contacts on the teeter and dog walk and totally understands the concept of hitting her contact (whatever the criteria) and waiting for a release. I did do a lot of impulse/self control training as a puppy and it is definitley paying off now. My dog is 18 months and she has been in two trials with a total of 5 runs with an A-frame - so far she's 100%.

 

Chandra

[Chan]

Thanks Chandra. Do you know what modifications she made and are those on the video? The only CR article I've found was from 2005 I think. can you briefly summarize what she's changed? Thanks for the video.

 

P.s... Nice golden! :-)

 

Thanks - she's a lot of fun!!

 

I don't think the modifications have been added to the video - at least not the one I saw.

She's changed the end behavior options to include a "bow" instead of a down for dogs that aren't as comfortable/quick at going into a down.

She's added guides coming out from the base of the frame to help the dog stay straight (have you ever seen the "jump bumps" Susan Salo uses? They're 4 or 5 "PVC cut in half length wise).

She's broken down the steps of teaching the dog to engage the target and lie down. If you are training a drivy BC you probably don't need that change, its more for less driven dogs.

I believe she also now has you reward the dog while they are on the mat after coming over the frame instead of (or in addition to) releasing to the motivator. I actually made this adjustment myself before the article came out because once I paired running the frame with the stop Indie started wanting to self release to her motivator so I decided that she needed to see some value in remaining on the mat. That worked well and then I just varied how I rewarded - a treat while she was still on the mat or a release to the toy.

 

The first article in the new series is in the Sept. 08 issue. I didn't dig around to find the second but it would be in the next month or two.

 

I'm heading out tomorrow for a trial this weekend so I may not be able to check back until next week. There are some things I would emphasize more in the initial training if I did this again and when I have more time I'll write more about that.

[Rave]

awesome! Thanks Chandra! Would love to hear what you'd modify when you have the time. good luck this weekend.

[Diana A]

This is SO off topic, but I can be really bad that way and they haven't thrown me off the board yet, so here goes!

 

Am I the only person in the world who does not find fading a prop or a target to be an issue? I've never even done it gradually - usually once I can tell that the dog has the idea of what I want, I start to vary asking for the behavior with the prop and then without it. Once the dog is fluent both with and without, it can go away forever unless I want to refresh the behavior by bringing it back at some point.

 

I hear people talk about fading props and targets as if it is this laborious and difficult undertaking. Even my hard headed, difficult to train girl doesn't have any issues with props and targets fading away on her.

 

I love props and targets and my dogs seem to love them, too - and learn fluent behaviors (fluent in the end without the prop or target) very nicely with them.

 

Is this really such a huge issue for some people or is it something that people just say because fading targets and props sounds like a difficult task?

 

Nota Bene: Read my tone in this post as curiously inquisitive. I realize it could come off as snotty, but I don't mean it to be at all!

 

 

I don't have a problem fading props - I've taught dogs previously using a target for the contact. The thing I don't like about the props when they're used to teach a behavior is that you have to maintain the behavior and often when things start to slide then the prop needs to come back out to get things back on track. And since the prop can never be in competition, it's harder to keep your competition performance and your training performance the same. I use props for weaves sometimes (such a wire screen to work on entrances or to prevent popping out when I'm proofing something) but the difference there is the dog wasn't taught how to weave with the prop so I can use it to help get the dog over a hump and then get rid of it in the same training session with no problem. I'm thinking specifically with contacts, if you teach the dog that a 2on2off means run touch your nose to a target, then at some point the target goes away and the behavior has to change to something different (touch the floor with your nose maybe). It's one thing if you use a target very biefly to train a nose touch to the floor, but what I see people do a lot is they let the target do the work of getting the dog into position and doing a contact is, in the dog's mind, so much about touching a target for so long, so that when the target goes away the dog doesn't have a clue what to do. Same thing with hoops, gates, etc - the dog is thinking about the gate or hoop, looking for, judging their position based on it, then to fade it you have to teach them to think differently (go to a particular spot in relation to the end of the ramp for example). So again you're changing the actual behavior. It always seemed much cleaner to me when you can come up with a method where the goal in the dog's mind when they first learn is always the goal - all through 1RTO the dog is thinking about keeping contact with the back feet and that never changes, compared to some other methods where they start off thinking about doing something with a prop and then you have to use that to teach another alternative behavior that gets you the same thing. I like props if they can be used for a short time to get you to another behavior - I don't like them when you have to use them long term and try to switch your criteria later to get rid of them.

[Jumpin Boots]

This is SO off topic, but I can be really bad that way and they haven't thrown me off the board yet, so here goes!

 

Am I the only person in the world who does not find fading a prop or a target to be an issue? I've never even done it gradually - usually once I can tell that the dog has the idea of what I want, I start to vary asking for the behavior with the prop and then without it. Once the dog is fluent both with and without, it can go away forever unless I want to refresh the behavior by bringing it back at some point.

 

I have never had issues with fading props either. As soon as the dog starts to show comfort, I push ahead to the next stage. As far as having to bring props back in, I haven't had a major issue with this. Every 6-8 weeks I throw the gates back in regardless of whether he is showing signs of needing them there or not. That way he doesn't get the chance to even think that the gates are not there. I also work gates on the flat, again to remind him they could pop up at any time. So far this has worked to keep him thinking that gates could show up at practice or during a trial.

 

If I wanted a running contact, I'd teach a running contact. I don't want that, I want a stop. I've been doing and teaching agility long enough and have trained enough dogs of my own and my students to the Masters level with reliable contacts to know how to teach a contact and be familiar with pretty much all the methods out there (including true running contacts, which do NOT alter the dog's stride).

 

I'd like to teach the 4OTF and was looking to chat with others who had taught it. I'm well aware if it's not trained correctly, the dog may leap the contact. That's not what I'm planning to teach. ;-)

 

I realize a true running contact has no change in gate. I guess I didn't state it correctly. The only larger size dogs I have noticed having successful running contacts are those that appear to shorten their stride. Now whether that is what the handler has asked for or whether the dog has just figured out that is how to be successful, I don't know, it is just what I have noticed. I'm sure there are larger strided dogs out there that don't show that behavior, I just haven't noticed one. I seems as though smaller dogs are much more successful using running contacts, again just what I've noticed.

 

Also, sorry if what you were wanting to discuss got hijacked, I don't think that was anyone's intentions, I know it wasn't mine. I for one, was just sharing the issues I have noticed and in no way was trying to make any comment about your training capabilities. Again, sorry for hijacking your question, but I think this shows the time and effort that dedicated agility people try to put into their dogs performance, just wanted to try to help.

[Pat W.]

Rave: The dogs I have seen use the 4OTF were downed at the end of the contact after completing the obsticle successfully, and downed for more than a count of 2, then released. This seems to really slow things down immensely. I have used the 2o2o successfully with my current partner, although I would have been tempted to train the 4OTF with my aussie as no matter what I tried he consistantly blew his contacts from being so high. My first partner had a natural running contact before they were called running contacts.

 

Kristine (R.B.) I have done the same as you. When Whim became proficient with his contacts, I started intermittently removing the target. If he had a problem then I would replace the target for a sequence or two and remove again. He is now hitting contacts correctly 95% of the time w/o the target...we do still have our green dog moments, usually when we're just over the top with excitement.

[Rave]

I'm sure the really big dogs do have to alter their strides somewhat, but those probably aren't the best candidates for true running contacts then either. I only think/post in terms of Border Collies though on this website.

 

I don't care if the discussion goes off-topic (I just skip those posts), I was just reiterating my actual question since no one had even come close to hitting on an answer yet.

 

I've taught 2o/2o for years after years after years to my dogs and students, and it bores me. I would like to teach something new and fresh, and I have a good candidate to retrain and an upcoming puppy candidate to train from the beginning. I don't want a running because I've already taught a running and I personally prefer a stop in competition after having competed with a running for a number of years. I don't want a 1RTO because I'd prefer a position that's more natural and faster to a BC, which a crouch/lie down most definitely is, and because I don't need the crutch of a criteria that's black/white to the world ... I like the challenge of making the "grey" appear black and white to the dog. The 4OTF intrigues me because it's new and has the potential to be a running if that's what the course/competition calls for, or a stop if that's what the course needs.

[Rave]

Rave: The dogs I have seen use the 4OTF were downed at the end of the contact after completing the obsticle successfully, and downed for more than a count of 2, then released. This seems to really slow things down immensely. I have used the 2o2o successfully with my current partner, although I would have been tempted to train the 4OTF with my aussie as no matter what I tried he consistantly blew his contacts from being so high. My first partner had a natural running contact before they were called running contacts.

 

As with training any contact method that requires a stop Pat, the long hold is a training/proofing thing you see with 2o/2o as well, especially when the dogs may need a reminder of what their criteria are. While it may seem like a waste of time since the dog has completed the obstacle, it's no different than holding a 2o/2o for the same amount of time.

[in2adventure]

Big red flag here - if the dog hates the mat, then it should not be paired with the contact yet. If the dog hates the mat, then something is wrong. I would never in a million years say that it's 'normal' for a dog being clicker trained to 'hate' the object he's being trained on. That flies in the face of the whole clicker concept that the dog thinks the whole thing was their idea and they're actively engaged in trying to figure out what to do to get the reward. Why does he hate the mat? How was it taught? I start my contact training (not 4OTF by the way) with a wide board on the ground and clicker train the dog to just get on it. They quickly learn to love it so much I can't keep them off of it. Then we shape the contact performance (I use 1RTO), then transfer to a narrower practice board, then back chain on the bottom of a contact, and finally to the full piece of equipment. Once the dog really 'gets it' about the position (to the point where the dog will eagerly run across the room and flip himself into his contact position without any help from me whatsoever and I can't pull him out of position no matter what enticements I offer) I've found all the rest of transitioning to equipment to be incredibly easy. Those beginning steps with a clicker and board (or in this case a mat) are so important, and yet that's the part that so many people want to rush over and skip to the next step. Then they leave a big hole in the foundation work that they'll be fighting for that dog's whole agility career.

I guess using the word hate is a strong term. He just doesn't really like to lay on a mat of any kind. This is why we've been targeting the frisbee. He gets SOOO excited to put his front feet on it and touch it. I'll be starting him over from square one and he won't be seeing a full size dogwalk for awhile. We already do the practice board and he can't stay off of it when it comes out, so step one is good. I'll start working on making him "stick" to it. I know if the control is lost now, it's going to be a disaster in a trial.

[Chan]

awesome! Thanks Chandra! Would love to hear what you'd modify when you have the time. good luck this weekend.

 

I have to preface this by saying that I really have not trained this obstacle to the standard that I have the others. I do not have an A-frame so that attributed to some of the lack of polish or rushing the job a bit - however you like to look at it. I do plan to tidy up/ tweak some aspects of this over the next few months but ideally I would have had it just how I wanted it before I began competing with her.

 

First, I think I would spend more time having her just run the frame with a hoop at the bottom. I was a bit hesitant to do many repetitions for a couple of reasons - one being the lack of access to equipt. daily, the other was that I was a bit concerned with the thought of her practicing blasting off the frame without stopping for very long. A. Croft is obviously not concerned about that though so I probably shouldn't have been either. I don't recall there being much discussion about how they come down the frame but what I prefer to see with Indie is that she crests the apex and then has a couple of hits before landing in her 4OTF position. I suppose I feel this is the fastest way and most similar to a running contact although I haven't compared actual times so I need to do that. What I am getting at times from her is what you see in the video - multiple steps down the frame. Even with those and being held on her contacts she was 25 seconds under time so it may not make a huge difference. Of course, I am not aiming to be on the world team but if someone was then it might matter more to them ;o) But anyway, I feel like it might not have become an issue if she had spent a bit more time getting the feel of running the frame without thinking about having to stop at the bottom.

 

Second, I would have put more emphasis, proofed more, etc. on her remaining straight at the end of the frame. She does tend to curve in toward me a bit which Ann says not to allow. To be honest though, I'm trying to decide how important I think that is. She tends to do it if I'm moving laterally as she comes into her position and if I'm moving laterally that would mean that she will be heading in that direction when released so I'm not sure it is such a bad thing.

 

The last aspect is how close to the base of the frame she is. I believe the video and articles show them very close to the end. Indie tends to fluctuate a bit with that (at times she may be out two to three feet from the edge of the frame) but she always comes down through her contact zone. I suppose if they were regularly stopping really far out then they might be able to leap over the contact and still hit the ground for their down like others have mentioned. One of the reasons I let her go a bit farther out was because it seemd somewhat difficult if she was coming over with great speed to stop her momentum that suddenly.

 

I have not seen any 4OTF contacts in the areas that I trial so I haven't had anyone to watch or talk to about the method. I would have loved to attend a workshop so that I could have asked some of the questions I have regarding criteria, etc. but since those options weren't available I had to just do my best with the video and articles. At this point, I'm pleased with the results ,although I do see some areas for improvement - mostly with my training, not the method. I think it is fairly straightforward and would be easy to teach as well as apply personally.

 

I hope that helps a bit in your decision making progress.

 

Chandra