Breeding the Hard Mouthed, Hard Everything Border Collie

[Tommy Coyote]

I'm just curious how people feel about this.

 

I live in Kansas City, Mo. Just south of me, down around Springfield, there are a lot of cattle ranchers that breed a very specialized kind of border collie. They are really hard mouthed and very fast. And they are specifically bred to work cattle. And they are a very tough dog.

 

These dogs look just like regular border collies. And they are definitely working dogs. But you would not dare put one on sheep. They would tear sheep to pieces. They are tough enough that they can work range cattle.

 

Now, in all fairness, I think the breeders and owners of these dogs are very upfront about what they are like. They bite hard and they are very fast and they are not suitable for sheep.

 

Oh, and they are kind of hard to train. I've seen them. They are so fast and go in so hard that it takes a pretty stong handler to do anything with one.

 

So, is this kind of breeding any different than breeding especially for agility?

 

The other side of this is that breeders of really good working dogs will all tell you that a good working dog can work both cattle and sheep. That you don't have to have a hard, biting dog to do the work.

[juliepoudrier]

The other side of this is that breeders of really good working dogs will all tell you that a good working dog can work both cattle and sheep. That you don't have to have a hard, biting dog to do the work.

I think the above statement is the key. Several folks on these boards work cattle regularly, trial on cattle and trial (or set out) on sheep--all with the same dogs. I think there's something of a macho cowboy attitude that wants a hard gripping hard-to-handle dog, but such a thing in general isn't required for working cattle.

 

I think dogs *do* need a grip, no matter what type of stock they are working. But along with the willingness to grip must be self-control. Some folks like hard dogs from a training standpoint, but one isn't necessary if you want a dog to work cattle. What you do need is a confident dog, and the two are not the same.

 

J.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

Dogs like this have always been bred and always will be bred. They make up part of the the spectrum of the breed. Not every dog has to attain the pinnacle of trial performance.

 

A lot of these dogs have more potential than they are given credit for - they aren't all steel noggin and shark teeth. Well, not usually.

 

I just happened to see something that Tony McCallum said on another forum that really impressed me. He said a good cattle working dog will adjust to sheep and other stock, just as they will have to adjust to heifers and calves and bulls and pairs.

[Dixie_Girl]

So, is this kind of breeding any different than breeding especially for agility?

 

In answer to this question, I would say yes. These particular cattle dogs are still being bred to work stock. While people who are on actual working farms will all have different criteria for the type of dog they need/want, they still are breeding with the stock working ethic in them. And that is the key to "breeding true". I am quite sure that every pup out of every breeding will not have the "bite" that they are looking for. But they are still stock working bred pups. When the dogs are bred with just agility in mind, as each generation is bred, the original make up of the breed is lost. Instead of say, 1% of the pups not capable of working stock, it soon becomes 25%, then 50%, then 75%, then, a shot in the dark.

[Smokjbc]

Dogs like this have always been bred and always will be bred. They make up part of the the spectrum of the breed. Not every dog has to attain the pinnacle of trial performance.

 

A lot of these dogs have more potential than they are given credit for - they aren't all steel noggin and shark teeth. Well, not usually.

 

I just happened to see something that Tony McCallum said on another forum that really impressed me. He said a good cattle working dog will adjust to sheep and other stock, just as they will have to adjust to heifers and calves and bulls and pairs.

 

 

Very well said Rebecca...

 

One thing that is unique (at least I think so) about this breed, from a working perspective, is that it is so extremely adaptable to different livestock situations. Plus, after watching dog after dog not able to lift range lambs off hay recently, I think it might be a good thing to have some uber-intense dog lines out there in case we need an infusion.

 

There are areas of the country where a specialized dog is needed- extreme temperatures, wild livestock, etc. might call for something a little different. As long as the dogs being bred are still judged according to their ability to work livestock in an economically useful manner on the ranch, I have no problem with it being a different kind of dog than I'd like to handle.

 

The same argument could be made for the breeding of soft trial dogs that can be started and sold to people who are unable to handle a stronger dog, except without the same merit IMHO.

[Tommy Coyote]

Very well said Rebecca...

 

One thing that is unique (at least I think so) about this breed, from a working perspective, is that it is so extremely adaptable to different livestock situations. Plus, after watching dog after dog not able to lift range lambs off hay recently, I think it might be a good thing to have some uber-intense dog lines out there in case we need an infusion.

 

There are areas of the country where a specialized dog is needed- extreme temperatures, wild livestock, etc. might call for something a little different. As long as the dogs being bred are still judged according to their ability to work livestock in an economically useful manner on the ranch, I have no problem with it being a different kind of dog than I'd like to handle.

 

The same argument could be made for the breeding of soft trial dogs that can be started and sold to people who are unable to handle a stronger dog, except without the same merit IMHO.

I personally like dogs that are a little soft. I couldn't any more handle one of those hard dogs than fly. They just scared me. The guys training them just hit them over the head to get them to back on out. I also didn't know squat about working dogs at the time so my recollection could be off, too.

 

But I feel the same way about heelers. I have seen a few of those come in to clinics and they just bite so hard. And they seem so hard headed. I saw one poor sheep get her udder shredded. I just hate that. As far as I'm concerned that is animal abuse and I wish they wouldn't allow cattle dogs or those really hard dogs into sheep clinics.

[Smokjbc]

I personally like dogs that are a little soft. I couldn't any more handle one of those hard dogs than fly. They just scared me. The guys training them just hit them over the head to get them to back on out. I also didn't know squat about working dogs at the time so my recollection could be off, too.

 

But I feel the same way about cattle dogs. I have seen a few of those come in to clinics and they just bite so hard. And they seem so hard headed. I saw one poor sheep get her udder shredded. I just hate that. As far as I'm concerned that is animal abuse and I wish they wouldn't allow cattle dogs or those really hard dogs into sheep clinics.

 

 

Most cow dog people I know, of the alligator dog persuasion anyways, do not care to go to sheepdog clinics. And I wouldn't necessarily blame that on the dog or the breeding- anyone who would allow a dog to shred a sheep udder is not practicing anything resembling good stockmanship or proper dog handling. I was at an event recently where several very weak dogs- most not border collies- were repeatedly running sheep into the fence- strong or weak- any dog can do damage and the stock should be protected from injury and abuse whenever possible.

[Tommy Coyote]

Most cow dog people I know, of the alligator dog persuasion anyways, do not care to go to sheepdog clinics. And I wouldn't necessarily blame that on the dog or the breeding- anyone who would allow a dog to shred a sheep udder is not practicing anything resembling good stockmanship or proper dog handling. I was at an event recently where several very weak dogs- most not border collies- were repeatedly running sheep into the fence- strong or weak- any dog can do damage and the stock should be protected from injury and abuse whenever possible.

Most of the heelers I have seen were owned by people who had no idea what working is. They were most likely AKC (are heelers allowed in the AKC) and were really just pets. I'm surprsed the man who had the clinic even allowed them.

 

I saw a rottweiler in one clinic that was so aggressive that the owner warned everyone to just stay away from him. The handler actually got out of the ring because the dog scared him. That dog took one look at the sheep and would have just killed them all. Fortunately the owner got him out and just put him back up.

 

 

Don't you usually have to pay for any sheep that your dog rips into?

 

That is one aspect of a clinic that has always bothered me. I always feel so sorry for the sheep. I really don't like animal abuse in any shape.

[Smokjbc]

Most of the heelers I have seen were owned by people who had no idea what working is. They were most likely AKC (are heelers allowed in the AKC) and were really just pets. I'm surprsed the man who had the clinic even allowed them.

 

I saw a rottweiler in one clinic that was so aggressive that the owner warned everyone to just stay away from him. The handler actually got out of the ring because the dog scared him. That dog took one look at the sheep and would have just killed them all. Fortunately the owner got him out and just put him back up.

Don't you usually have to pay for any sheep that your dog rips into?

 

That is one aspect of a clinic that has always bothered me. I always feel so sorry for the sheep. I really don't like animal abuse in any shape.

 

I'm sorry, I mistook "cattle dogs" to mean border collies bred as cattle dogs. But actually I'd say most heelers I've seen were not normally udder shredders or even particularly hard on stock- they just don't have feel like a border collie does. Regardless- I do not think what you describe is the norm for clinics I've attended. And the event I described was an exception to most sheepdog events I've been too. I have experience both with sheep and cow dog folks, and the common denominator is that efficient, humane movement of livestock is the goal.

[Debbie Meier]

Well, we raise cattle dogs, both the ACD and BC side of things, the worst biters are those with the least confidence. As we learned better, we found that you don't build working confidence by allowing the dog to get in there and bite, which is what many are trying to do. It's hard to know if that is what you saw.

 

Also, we learned the hard way that if you let them build biting confidence you can bonk them on the head all you want, and if you get them out, then they just go to find a new place to try to get in and bite, it's all they know, move stock with teeth, get pushed out means find different place to move stock with teeth. In some cases it does not indicate the true amount of ability, feel or trainability, they may have some great dogs, but just not developing them in the same way that those that are working sheep or handling cattle in a different fashion, without raising one of their pups outside of that environment you don't really know. If you don't allow the dog to move off stock but rather excite it in to bite, if you don't allow it to be patient and feel the stock, but rather excite it in to bite, it's just going think bite is right, put a lie down on it and now you have a four legged self propelled hotshot ready for action.

 

Getem', Getem', Getem'....shhshhshhshh...Yahhh..Good dog! Sorry if you've never heard or seen it done, you might not get it.

 

As far as the speed, I think I have one of those fast hard running bc cattle dogs, the way you handle it is that you don't let them go fast unless they are right, atleast that's my approach now, and yeah, they can work sheep just fine out in the open and are really good arena trial dogs when you have them handling, but no, not the type of dog for everyone you gotta be thinking ahead and not watching your dog. You need to know exactly where you want them and they have to be tuned to the point where they stop and go exactly where you tell them. I if they have a lot of feel for their sheep they will save your butt, that is if you can get enough handle on them to get them to work for you and not themselves.

 

Deb

[stockdogranch]

I agree with Julie--I think any dog should have a grip when necessary, but should be able to discern when it is needed and when it is not, and use it as a last resort. Every dog should learn, very early on, to read its stock and to adjust accordingly, so that it, in theory, should be able to work sheep (from farm flocks to range ewes), and cattle (from dog broke to rank) equally well. I think this ability to really read or feel stock and respond appropriately is perhaps one of the biggest issues many dogs lack. As for hard or soft dogs, I want one with balls of steel on its stock, but very biddable. I do not want to have to argue with a dog,

A

[DTrain]

I have a so-called cattle dog. He was bred to work cattle on southern Alberta ranches. He has worked feed lots. You may have seen his picture. He is bigger and stronger than most border collies I have seen. He has been bred big and powerful. I know his line well. It is a very popular line in Alberta and the western US where cattle is the common stock. I have worked cattle with him and he does not hesitate to go in for a grip and most often it is his choice. He is hard-headed so to speak. He is very fast and he likes to work fast and at times he can be a little hard to control. I have perhaps read about me practicing with him. But he also works sheep and most of you know he also works geese. It has taken some effort to tone him done but he has and he does a great job. He is also a trials dog although it is not likely he will ever amount to much in trials he is fine enough to get the job done. Other than his size ( he is often mistaken for a cross because he has such huge feet ) and perhaps his desire to work fast and hard he is no different than any other working border collie. I am aware of this cattle line but I think stories about them have been greatly exaggerated.

[Lenajo]

The specialty working line dogs (cattle only, trial only, etc) don't do the damage the non-herding breeding does because at the baseline of those dogs the ability to fetch and gather stock remains. They still have the true essense of Border Collie in them...

 

with that, you can at least change the direction of a breeding or training program to go forward.... and I daresay within the layers of the target (to take from Denise Wall's bullseye analogy) the fringe lines to balance out the more central ones. For example, using a good strong cattle working female to breed to a more stylish sheep trial male who perhaps is erring on the light side of adequete power but is otherwise a solid working dog.

 

If you lose functional ability all together (or have it so skewed as many of these oddly bred sport and show dogs do) you pretty much can't get it back.

[juliepoudrier]

I think this ability to really read or feel stock and respond appropriately is perhaps one of the biggest issues many dogs lack.

I had a long and fruitless discussion with someone on Herd-L on this very topic one time (she was a non-border collie person). She was offended by my use of the term "natural dog," and couldn't seem to understand the definition I gave, which was basically the sentence you used above. It was only later that I realized that she wasn't being deliberately argumentative but that she really didn't understand that dogs could naturally read livestock and then respond appropriately to them--it hadn't been her experience with her breed of choice. It was a real eye-opener for me into the world of non-border collies (as I don't think she was unique in her thinking). Oh, and Anna, I wonder if those dogs truly lack that trait (as in they weren't born with it) or if training just never allowed them to develop it properly? Probably some of both.

 

I like a fast, confident dog that is willing to work *with* me (i.e., is biddable). I don't want a dog so soft that I have to beg it to work, but neither do I want a dog so hard I have to beat over the head to make it listen. And if my dog is truly able to read stock and respond appropriately, then I really shouldn't have to provide a lot of input at all--just basic directions about where I need the stock moved....

 

J.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

I think that's the big thing - the connection to the livestock keeps the door open to maintain the feel, the central instincts of the Border Collie. Even the people who use them as four legged hot shots may stumble across better work and put some thought into raising their standards. I've seen it happen.

 

It's a misconception, by the way, that the only way to get through to a very hard headed dog is through abusive methods. Just like with a so-called "soft" dog, you can use the stock to shape the work of such a dog so that he's working in the "happy" place. In fact, sometimes it's easier for someone who is used to working with these types of dogs, to get through to a dog like that, because they want really badly to be shown what to do and left alone.

[herdcentral]

Where I come from ACDS are more common in station country where cattle tend to be wild and only mustered once a year and the scrub and spinnifex are punishing and are expert at dodging kicking cattle. BCs and kelpies are the dog of choice on sheep and more domesticated cattle.

 

I have owned true working bred ACD from proven station lines and ANKC bred ACDS and although they have all been wonderful dogs the true working bred dog was definitely a completely different animal.

 

She was quite the best dog that I have ever owned and was fit and healthy for 17 years. The most amazing independent thinker and although fast, bold and prepared to take anything on she was always very gentle and handled herself beautifully when working with my horses. She had the sort of grit that would keep her working till she dropped but was gentle and sweet with kids. My show bred heelers wouldnt have a clue and I wouldnt let them near any type of stock and anyway they would soon be looking for a shady tree to rest under.

[stockdogranch]

I wonder if those dogs truly lack that trait (as in they weren't born with it) or if training just never allowed them to develop it properly? Probably some of both.

Both, I think. Some probably are more naturally inclined to have this trait, but I think many people are too busy micro-managing their dogs or afraid to let them work some things out for themselves, that the dogs never get much chance.

 

A

[osioda]

As for The cattle dog Border Collie only type dog I use or will use , working sheep or hogs or anything if he is trained accordingly he can handle and move any type of livestock with out doing damage, a good trained dog knows when to grip and when not to grip, or will grip on command I have worked with this type of dog all my life and this is the type of dog I prefer, THEY are harder to train, yes I agree, for the main reason there DRIVE is tremendously more than a regular and you have to be more patient in training them. But for me I do not want a soft driven dog, I don't want to worry about going out to work and for a dog getting tired and giving up. or slowing down, A good bred well trained dog will not give up or quit, And you think it is Tough moving cattle, try moving Hogs or Sows. and try taking a slow driven dog into a pen of Sows and see what happens.

 

Another thing you will notice about a good Cattle dog as you will not notice in one whom is not bred for it, is the way they dodge a kick or how they handle the pressure, A good dog will actually go into a roll to protect himself,

[herdcentral]

Another thing you will notice about a good Cattle dog as you will not notice in one whom is not bred for it, is the way they dodge a kick or how they handle the pressure, A good dog will actually go into a roll to protect himself,

 

That is very interesting about the cattle dog BC rolling to protect from a kick and their very high drive. My working bred ACD would duck her head down in a lightening quick manouvre. Yes the one thing that I noticed about her was her very high drive, she was almost impossible to wear out, and absolutely nothing phased her.

 

I had to laugh about the pigs, I once worked in a piggery and moving pigs was an extremely challenging operation! They are the most uncooperative, slippery, noisy and determined animals.

[hsnrs]

We attended a trial recently and saw several good handlers. However, we saw some other handlers that did not have their dogs under control. Unfortunately I was one of those latter people. Now we want to work on getting the dogs back under better control to start again. The trainer even decided not to let us come any more to practice because of this. She is right in a sense of not wanting her sheep soured as she put it. However, I'm pretty sure that my dogs were not the only ones doing this. Any ideas for us to get back on track would be greatly appreciated. We don't have Border Collies but Aussies. N

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

I spent a weekend helping at a weekend hosted by an Aussie club - Jim Hartnagle was the clinician. If you ever have a chance to have him work with a group I'd strongly encourage it - he spent the weekend showing the attendees how to help their dogs increase their feel for the stock, instill respect and distance, think about what they were doing instead of bouncing blindly around. Most of what they did was do figure eights on and off the fence, stop, WALK not jump forward.

 

That was the first time I saw the "make the ground dangerous" method though I didn't realize it at the time. He used a regular stock stick and a soda bottle taped on it with a few pebbles to make a shaker for a few of the really hard headed Aussies. All he wanted was for them to think twice about barging forward like sillies and it worked like a charm, even for the conformation dogs that I would have sworn had not a shred of instinct left in their bodies. By the end of the clinics even they were working well off with their heads down.

[AdmiralGonsiorowski]

That was the first time I saw the "make the ground dangerous" method though I didn't realize it at the time. He used a regular stock stick and a soda bottle taped on it with a few pebbles to make a shaker for a few of the really hard headed Aussies. All he wanted was for them to think twice about barging forward like sillies and it worked like a charm, even for the conformation dogs that I would have sworn had not a shred of instinct left in their bodies. By the end of the clinics even they were working well off with their heads down.

 

How did he use the stick/soda bottle? The image I keep coming up with is bonking the hard-headed dog on his noggin. Did he just shake it so the noise would break the dog's concentration?

[Sue R]

We attended a trial recently and saw several good handlers. However, we saw some other handlers that did not have their dogs under control. Unfortunately I was one of those latter people. Now we want to work on getting the dogs back under better control to start again. The trainer even decided not to let us come any more to practice because of this. She is right in a sense of not wanting her sheep soured as she put it. However, I'm pretty sure that my dogs were not the only ones doing this. Any ideas for us to get back on track would be greatly appreciated. We don't have Border Collies but Aussies. N

Narita - I can understand how difficult this must be for you. Reading Rebecca's post, maybe what you need is a very capable, experienced instructor/clinician who really understands how to work with Aussies.

 

I went to a clinic with a very good friend and her working-bred Aussie. After several years of going to an all-breed trainer and not really making much progress (some progress in certain areas that was good, but lack of progress in some others), this trainer (Elvin Kopp) showed her some techniques *off stock* that were very helpful in terms of improving her relationship with her dog - who, as a confident, intelligent, typical Aussie was not functioning so much as a partner but rather tending to try and "run the show" himself.

 

I hope you can find a really good trainer or clinician that has the background working Aussies for "real work" and not just trials or titles - someone who can give you those skills you need to bring out the best in your dogs as partners. I go about six hours each way twice a year to someone I feel is the "right" clinician right now for me (and my dogs), and once a month at best go three hours each way to a good trainer who is also a good match for us. I feel like I am just beginning to "get it" myself particularly with their help (and the help of several others). I have been amazed at the difference that is making in my handling, and therefore my dogs and their work.

 

In my opinion, even if you have to travel to the "right" clinic or to work with someone for a few days, it would very much be worth the effort to make the changes and progress that will benefit you and your dogs. A good dog is a very good thing but, without good instruction, most people will not be able to channel and utilize a good dog beneficially. Struggling along largely on your own might be very counterproductive compared to even a limited amount of good instruction.

[juliepoudrier]

Admiral,

Although it's possible to bop a particularly disobedient dog on the head, the idea of the stick (with or without an attachment) is to apply pressure without touching the animal (consider that often you're not close enough to actually touch the dog with the stick anyway). Think of someone pointing a finger at you and wagging it. It might make you lean back a bit or even step back from that person because the wagging finger is invading the space between you. It's not a perfect analogy, but the fact of that arm, hand, and finger getting "in your face" so to speak puts pressure on you. You may choose to back up as a result or, if you're of a different personality, you might decide to return the pressure by pushing forward into the other person's space or even just step around the pressure to get closer to the person.

 

Now to put this in dog terms. If you are waving a stick at a dog, you are putting pressure on the dog, and this is actually a very common training method. But the disadvantage to this is that some dogs will respond to that pressure pointed directly at them by either pushing back (moving in closer) or speeding up to get past it. So instead of putting the pressure directly on the dog by pointing or waving the stick at him, instead you point or wave the stick at the ground where you don't want the dog to travel. Because you're not putting pressure directly on the dog, it is less likely to push back or race past, but instead will avoid that ground where the pressure is being applied. You can actually also do this just with a look--staring at the ground you don't want the dog to cross. The whole point is to encourage the dog to feel its sheep and give them space by staying just on the edge of their "flight bubble." A dog that is constantly pushing inside that bubble is putting too much pressure on the sheep, causing stress to them and probably making them move much more quickly than is necessary. By putting pressure on the ground between the dog and the sheep (making the ground dangerous), you can encourage the dog to give the sheep more space without actually putting undue pressure on the dog.

 

Now maybe someone else will come along and explain that better. It's actually much easier to understand when you see it in action.

 

J.

[Sue R]

Julie - I think that is a great explanation. I am trying to incorporate some of that principle in working with my dogs and I think it has great value, and is very compatible with a number of training approaches and situations.