Polly Posted January 7, 2009 Report Share Posted January 7, 2009 Hello ALL, I am new and we rescued our Border Collie Dixie a little over a year ago when she was 3 months old. She was abused. Right after we got her I had Major back surgery and have not been up to training her till now:(. She is not good on the leash ( she minds very well indoors). She pulls until she throws up ( we have a regular flat collar). I purchased one of the Gentle Leads and she did not do good with that either ( she wanted to come back inside). I dont know what I should try next...prong collar, choke chain....help. I would really appreciate any input...she picked up the lay down and roll over in 2 days but this walking thing is bad...I cant stand to let her pull on me with my back the way it is...6 screws, 3 spacers and 2 rods.....help... Thank you,Polly P.S. Here is my Baby;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ninso Posted January 7, 2009 Report Share Posted January 7, 2009 My dog is a really bad puller as well. I finally gave up teaching him not to pull, stopped going for walks and took up skijoring so he can pull to his heart's content! I'm only half joking! We did stop going for walks (they weren't much exercise for him and he'd rather play fetch in the back yard) and we did take up skijoring! But I have also been working on his pulling and we've actually made some progress. There are MANY methods you can use, but depending on how stubborn a puller you have, it may take quite a bit of time and patience. Obviously, your dog is hurting herself by pulling on a plain collar, so you either need to find another type of walking device that will work or do some serious training. The gentle leader worked for me to stop the pulling, but my dog was VERY unhappy with it and got really depressed. Walks were no fun at all, so I quit using it. I didnt use a prong collar because he's a pretty soft dog (getting better, but didn't take correction well at all when I first adopted him) and I was afraid of the effect it would have on him. However, I have known people who have used the prong collars for pulling with great success. While there are some who think it's overly harsh, they really don't hurt the dog if they are used properly, and I think that a pinch from the collar would be preferable to potential permanent damage to the esophagus from pulling. Don't use a choke chain though--those continue to tighten as long as the dog is pulling and will do more damage than the plain buckle collar. Choke chains are not a pull-stopping device. There are also different types of harnesses, such as the E-Z Walk harness that work for some dogs to stop pulling. If none of the above devices work for your dog, you will probably have to go the route of pure training. There are many methods to choose from. You can train a dog to stay in a particular position by your side with treats and a clicker (or whatever method you normally choose to train other commands). Or, when your dog pulls you can simply stop and wait for the dog to re-orient to you (look at you or slacken the pressure on the leash) and then reward the dog by continuing the walk. You can back up or head in another direction every time the dog begins to pull. For a persistent puller, all of these methods can take quite a bit of time to work. In a week, I managed to get down the driveway with no pulling, but didn't have the patience to go much further than that. The method that has been working for me is to place a toy several feet away from my dog, who is on leash, and then start walking towards the toy. The toy is a target that he wants to get to. If he pulls, I stop. Obviously, he wants to get there as fast as possible and he caught on fairly soon to the idea that he needed to not pull to get there quickly. This worked quite well for us, as he was finally able to grasp the idea that his pulling was what caused us to stop. When he understood this, stopping was able to transfer to other areas, like walking from the car to the beach or the pet store. However, if you're not 100% consistent and let him get away with pulling sometimes, you'll probably never have a good leash-walker. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WildFlower Posted January 7, 2009 Report Share Posted January 7, 2009 Daisy was a horrid puller and would pull until she could hardly breath and was weezing. I bought her a harness and use that on all walks. She still will pull but I don't feel bad about her hurting herself. When she pulls really bad I actually stop until she turns and looks back at me. Then I will proceed forward with her again so long as she is not pulling. If she pulls again I stop and wait for her to look at me. After a few times of this she will walk with a loose leash until she sees a squirell or bunny. Then we have to do it some more. Good Luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Polly Posted January 7, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 7, 2009 Thank you Ninso and Daisy......I think I will be picking up a harness so she doesnt injure herself while we are training....that has been my biggest fear!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nancy in AZ Posted January 7, 2009 Report Share Posted January 7, 2009 You may want to consider getting the Gentle Leader Easy Walk harness. It has the attachment ring at the front so that when the dog pulls he re-orients towards you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shetlander Posted January 7, 2009 Report Share Posted January 7, 2009 I would use one of the no pull harnesses but also train loose leash walking. I like the method of stopping or taking "penalty steps" in the opposite direction when there is any pulling, no matter how light. Quinn's harness worked so well I got lazy and decided I didn't care if it was just a tool and not training. That worked fine until the day I misplaced the harness and then Quinn was back to his old tricks, driving me crazy. Served me right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Root Beer Posted January 7, 2009 Report Share Posted January 7, 2009 Easy Walk Harness. Worth every penny. You can look up on the internet how to measure your dog so you get the right size. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PSmitty Posted January 7, 2009 Report Share Posted January 7, 2009 Yup, if you want a harness, the Easy Walk is the only one I'd recommend. A regular harness just encourages pulling, IMO. Truly, the best tool I've seen for pulling is the Gentle Leader. Yes, most dogs hate it at first, but with time and patience, most can be brought around to using it with no problem. You have to take it with baby steps and lots of praise/positive reinforcement. Good luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shetlander Posted January 7, 2009 Report Share Posted January 7, 2009 I bought the Sensation or Sensible Harness. Whichever one was the cheaper version. It worked great immediately. I believe it works on the same principle as the Easy Walk. Just be sure to buy a no-pull harness, whatever the version. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Polly Posted January 7, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 7, 2009 You all are soooo information filled;) Thank you sooo much!! I will be purchasing one of those....tonight!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tassie Posted January 8, 2009 Report Share Posted January 8, 2009 Coming in late - but endorsing the front clip harness, like the Easy-walk. The operation is that if the dog pulls, it automatically gets turned towards the handler - at which point, you reward the dog for being back with you. Hope you get good results with it - and hope your back is coming on OK. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pammyd Posted January 8, 2009 Report Share Posted January 8, 2009 I wouldnt use anything like a prong, not just cos I think it is a nasty thing to do to your dog but also a dog is pulling because either it dosent know you want it not to (ie it hasnt been properly trained - which takes time - I know) or it knows the position of walking on a slack lead but something else is more rewarding than you so in either case its not the dogs fault and they should not be punnished I find really important if the dog is a puller work on a v short lead so it cant get any momentum and work on the 'we aint going nowhere till the lead is slack' described above Use a harness along with this so the dog cant really pull you I walk faster when the dog is in the position I want and slow down as they get further ahead and stop just as they are about to pull well with Mia anyway, Ben is hardly ever on a lead so I dont really bother Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnLloydJones Posted January 8, 2009 Report Share Posted January 8, 2009 Easy Walk Harness. Worth every penny. Yes, it worked for me too. I bought it after an incident when she suddenly reacted to a back yard dog who had started barking. I slipped and banged my knee against the edge of the concrete path. that hurt so much, I thought I was crippled for life. With the easy walk, she is much easier to control and by slowing or stopping when she pulled, she became much easier to walk with. I no longer need the harness, but I put it on her when my wife talks her for a walk, so that she knows that she needs to be well behaved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
osioda Posted January 8, 2009 Report Share Posted January 8, 2009 For all of you working with a dog that pulls and drags you, the safest way and most effective way to break this you can do with a small rope with a ring on it and you take the rope feed it through the ring to make like a noose you take it and put it over the dogs head with the ring on the side you will be walking so it will release correctly , now you take this noose type rope you have and you take it and put it right behind the ears there is two little bones that stick out on each side behind the dogs ears to keep it from sliding down, and you snug up and now you walk with your dog they might try an fight just a little but not much because they can not, and this does not choke them at all, but it takes there strength from pulling away from them and I don't care the size of the dog they have no more strength and they can no longer tug and pull you around, I have used this method on several size different dogs from everyone who has tried your harnesses to collars to choker collars, and this method will work, and is the most humane way in teaching a dog to walk with you. And you can do this for a couple of dollars at any hardware store. steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Polly Posted January 8, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 8, 2009 Tassie, thanks so mucch for the well wishes on the back:). And I think the front clip one is a great idea;) Pammyd, I agree..I just cant do the prong thing;) John, I hope your knee is better;) And thank you for the info;) Steve, just like Cesar Millan does;) I tried putting her regular collar up there but it just wont stay cause of all of her hair..but I am guessing the rope would stay:) I want to thank you ALL for your support on this matter;) I have never had a BC before Dixie and the funniest part is I didnt even know that Dixie was a Border Collie when we rescued her,LOL:). She looked at me with those eyes and she touched my heart;) And is still touching me every day:) Here is some more pic's of my baby..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
osioda Posted January 8, 2009 Report Share Posted January 8, 2009 Yes actually that is why I don't use the collar it will slide down but the rope will not and you don't want to use a big piece of rope I just use a small nylon rope and put the ring on the end of it, and I promise it will work. Any questions an you can send me a message. Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Polly Posted January 8, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 8, 2009 Oh Steve thank you for the support..I dont know anyone else that lives around me for BC tips;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shetlander Posted January 8, 2009 Report Share Posted January 8, 2009 For all of you working with a dog that pulls and drags you, the safest way and most effective way to break this you can do with a small rope with a ring on it and you take the rope feed it through the ring to make like a noose you take it and put it over the dogs head with the ring on the side you will be walking so it will release correctly , now you take this noose type rope you have and you take it and put it right behind the ears From what I've observed (over many years with dogs of all types), it is very uncomfortable for them to pull with the leash up that high and that is where they loose the strength to pull. Not saying it doesn't work. I've seen it work but I would not call it the "most humane" approach. Personally I think dogs don't choke because they would pretty quickly move to strangling if they pulled with a noose set that high. At least that is what it looks (and sounds) like when I've seen people use the technique. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
osioda Posted January 8, 2009 Report Share Posted January 8, 2009 I recommend you try it yourself, you say is not the most humane way, but you take a dog with a collar on it and is tugging against you, you will hear that dog breathing hard , hard for him to get his breath at times because of tugging, You put your rope on and do it this away, and there is no tugging, because he can't the rope does not have to be tight around him at all, choking him For example I have a friend who works with German Shepherds there whole live training, and she has a dog that is hard to break and just wants to tug constantly, I told her I could break this dog, of it, and just use two fingers to lead a full size german shepherd around she did not believe me either, and I demonstrated and the dog walked right beside me not yanking not breathing hard not tugging at all with just two fingers I led this full size German Shepherd anywhere I wanted with full control of two fingers. So you are telling me it is not that human, and I am putting to much pressure on this dog with two fingers?? When most people are taking a dog that is dragging them by there leash an collar. Alot of people using two hands to try and control? I suggest you try yourself , and then make the recomendations. Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Root Beer Posted January 8, 2009 Report Share Posted January 8, 2009 I'm not Liz, but I did want to respond a bit. you say is not the most humane way, but you take a dog with a collar on it and is tugging against you, you will hear that dog breathing hard , hard for him to get his breath at times because of tugging, You put your rope on and do it this away, and there is no tugging, because he can't the rope does not have to be tight around him at all, choking him A front clip harness does not choke the dog, either. There is no tugging. It's a very nice tool. It stops the pulling immediately, the dogs usually enjoy wearing them, and they do not make it difficult for the dog to breathe. I would not suggest that anyone just let the dog keep on pulling on the buckle collar. For example I have a friend who works with German Shepherds there whole live training, and she has a dog that is hard to break and just wants to tug constantly, Any method that is used to "break" the dog is not something that I would consider using on any dog of mine. I don't "break" animals, I train them. That's not meant in a judgmental way, but I think it is an important distinction. I would say that my preference for the front clip harness matches your preference for your method. A front clip harness is certainly no less humane than the method that you suggest. When most people are taking a dog that is dragging them by there leash an collar. Alot of people using two hands to try and control? Not with a front clip harness. The dog does not drag, there is no choking, there is no heavy breathing from the dog. I suggest you try yourself , and then make the recomendations. There are many, many things that I don't need to try to know whether or not it is something I would use on my dog. The method you describe definitely falls into the category of training techniques that I do not find necessary - the front clip harness does the job and is my tool of choice on a pulling dog - and out of the realm of my own consideration. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shetlander Posted January 9, 2009 Report Share Posted January 9, 2009 I suggest you try yourself , and then make the recomendations. For almost 20 years, I've watched many people use this method for pulling. Right in the same room with me, sometimes only a few feet away. I also used the method many years ago to teach my dog to "watch me" in obedience. It was very much negative reinforcement for a behavior that is easy and much more fun to teach (and learn) with positive reinforcement. So you are telling me it is not that human, and I am putting to much pressure on this dog with two fingers?? When most people are taking a dog that is dragging them by there leash an collar. Alot of people using two hands to try and control? I didn't actually say it wasn't humane. I stated that I did not agree with your opinion that it was the "most humane" way to teach a dog not to pull. I can think of other methods that would be inhumane or that would be harder on the dog in the long run than the method you describe. However, I can think of other ways to train loose leash walking that I personally prefer and that I personally would recommend to others. What I have observed close-hand in other dogs and in my own dog at the time is when the leash goes that high and that tight, the dog is not comfortable and is often stressed. Some dogs who actively fight this hold make strangling noises and yes they quickly stop fighting. They certainly won't pull. They have little choice to do anything you don't want them to do and lots of motivation to do what they are told. Fortunately, the dog I used this with loved to perform despite some of the methods I was taught to use for obedience competition. I just don't like that method and have no intention of using it on any dog of mine again. As Kristine pointed out (omg, Kristine!! -- we're very much in agreement on this one!!! ), a no-pull harness does not involve choking a dog and shows immediate results. It showed such wonderful, immediate results with Quinn that I became lazy and didn't bother to actually train loose leash walking until I was reminded of the error of my ways. Quinn already had lovely competition heeling -- but that isn't something I wanted him to do on walks. My recommendation was and still is to use a no-pull harness and also train the behavior you want. I simply wouldn't recommend using the method you do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ms.DaisyDuke Posted January 9, 2009 Report Share Posted January 9, 2009 For all of you working with a dog that pulls and drags you, the safest way and most effective way to break this you can do with a small rope with a ring on it and you take the rope feed it through the ring to make like a noose you take it and put it over the dogs head with the ring on the side you will be walking so it will release correctly , now you take this noose type rope you have and you take it and put it right behind the ears there is two little bones that stick out on each side behind the dogs ears to keep it from sliding down, and you snug up and now you walk with your dog they might try an fight just a little but not much because they can not, and this does not choke them at all, but it takes there strength from pulling away from them and I don't care the size of the dog they have no more strength and they can no longer tug and pull you around, I have used this method on several size different dogs from everyone who has tried your harnesses to collars to choker collars, and this method will work, and is the most humane way in teaching a dog to walk with you. And you can do this for a couple of dollars at any hardware store. steve I actually have a "slip leash" like this from my vet. We used it when we got her fixed because I forgot her leash, so they had these for cases like that. I am sure they are very cheap cause they had a whole whack of them. ANYWAY, I don't walk my dog with this leash because she pulls and it does choke her, she's actually worse on this leash than her regular flat collar and leash combo. It is the same, IMO as a choke chain and can be just as damaging. I didn't find it effective one bit on our pulling issues. Daisy still pulls sometimes, but most of the time when we are walking, she is focused on me because I actually trained her to give me attention while we are walking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anda Posted January 9, 2009 Report Share Posted January 9, 2009 My dog is a leash puller. Sometimes worst than others. Regular walks, he's fine. If it's time to go play ball off-leash, the entire walk to the field is a pain in the butt (or maybe I should say a pain in my arm). The only thing that works on my dog to stop him from pulling when he really wants to go somewhere is the prong collar. I use it very rarely, usually after an incident where he almost pulls my arms off the socket and I get tired of his sled dog impersonations and decide to take out the prong collar. He changes instantly into the most well behaved dog. But I don't like it on him when I take him off leash, don't like him running with it, plus I don't want to risk having him off leash without his tags on his regular collar. If I have to take him somewhere where I cannot aford him to pull - such as our visit to Grand Canyon a couple of years ago or a walk downtown somewhere, he gets the chromed collar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M.L. Posted January 9, 2009 Report Share Posted January 9, 2009 A CLICKER! Bailey has always been a puller. I tried everything - gentle leader, no pull harnesses, changing directions, going back inside...you name it, I tried it. Then we started working with a clicker. We started with some very basic things like sit, down, etc. These were things he already knew, but I added hand signals and duration and rewarded with the click. It is amazing how excited Bailey would get when I put the clicker in my hand! Since he is a puller I would head out for a walk. If he pulled I would stop and call him back to me. When he got to me I'd click and treat. Then we would walk again. When he pulled I'd stop and wait again. I'd click and treat when he came back to me. Soon he learned that being next to me got clicks and treats. He is much more excited to hear the click and responds much faster than when I use my voice to say "good boy" or "yes". There are plenty of instructions on the web or you can get a good book from the library. There are also plenty of variations on how to use the clicker to teach heel, so you can choose which you think will work best. I only recently started retraining each of our dogs individually with the clicker and I'm amazed at how fast they learn and how eager they are to do what I ask! Well, Willow is still kind of scared of the clicker, so for her I just click and then throw a treat at her. Even my husband's Husky responds to training with the clicker. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Polly Posted January 9, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 9, 2009 Wow, I didnt think this thread would cause such a reaction...I guess this is a great exmple of differant people's opinions;) You guys are all so awesome to help me with this, and I do value each comment made;) M.L....the funny thing is I do own a clicker I got for my Pug mix that passed away..he didnt respond to it..but maybe with Dixie the BC it will work.... off to Clicker train:) YEA!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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