Describing the original Border Collie - Help

[D Strickland]

Hi,

 

I believe that up to maybe 100 or so years ago - before herding trials and conformation trials - the Border Collie ( aka Sheepdog or Collie ) was a balanced and smart working dog. He was not neurotic or have OCD. He would work a full day and at night he would lay down in the field with the shepherd. He would not take-off to go work without being instructed to - and he would not need to be restrained to prevent this.

 

I am looking for any information that could help me support this claim. Anything from what the first herding trial courses were like to accounts from shepherds of their dog's temperaments and work ethics.

 

Thank you,

******************** CORRECTION **********************

 

My question should've read : " Does anyone have any information on how the Border Collie has evolved from what it was 150 years ago ?

[Smokjbc]

Hi,

 

I believe that up to maybe 100 or so years ago - before herding trials and conformation trials - the Border Collie ( aka Sheepdog or Collie ) was a balanced and smart working dog. He was not neurotic or have OCD. He would work a full day and at night he would lay down in the field with the shepherd. He would not take-off to go work without being instructed to - and he would not need to be restrained to prevent this.

 

I am looking for any information that could help me support this claim. Anything from what the first herding trial courses were like to accounts from shepherds of their dog's temperaments and work ethics.

 

Thank you,

 

 

I think that is true today- although I think it is most likely the dogs 100 years ago would not have been left alone with stock. Any of my dogs would "lay down in the field" with me (except maybe the youngest) and leave stock alone because they have been trained to do so when I am present. I have owned or lived with a dozen or more border collies and never had one that was neurotic or had OCD. So I'm not sure how you could prove it either way- in my opinion, it's true today that most working border collies are not neurotic and are highly trainable dogs- including knowing when they are at work, and when they are not.

[D Strickland]

I think that is true today- although I think it is most likely the dogs 100 years ago would not have been left alone with stock. Any of my dogs would "lay down in the field"........ I have owned or lived with a dozen or more border collies and never had one that was neurotic or had OCD. So I'm not sure how you could prove it either way- in my opinion, it's true today that most working border collies are not neurotic and are highly trainable dogs- including knowing when they are at work, and when they are not.

 

I agree with you but I think that sports like Flyball and Agility are breeding dogs that are faster and possibly a lot more neurotic. ( not trying to offend anyone ... just my thoughts here ).

 

Is there any reference to a shepherd of a drover having to tie-up their dog or dogs at night when they stay out in the fields with the sheep ? Or was the Border Collie back then more like the English Shepherd ???

[JohnLloydJones]

I believe that up to maybe 100 or so years ago - before herding trials and conformation trials - the Border Collie ( aka Sheepdog or Collie ) was a balanced and smart working dog. He was not neurotic or have OCD.

 

I know of no reason why you would believe that working sheepdogs are any different today.

[Smokjbc]

Dave,

 

I can see what you are trying to do, it just seems like it would be more useful to compare what modern day shepherds do with their dogs compared to the sports collies. But a good source for information on earlier sheepdogs (not 100 years ago, but in the first half of the century at least) is Eric Halsall’s Sheepdogs, My Faithful Friends.

[D Strickland]

I know of no reason why you would believe that working sheepdogs are any different today.

 

150 years ago ... your dog either worked or it died. There was no agility, no herding trials, and no AKC.

 

Nowadays weak dogs are kept as pets, and some are labeled as Champion Herding dogs by organizations that gauge their herding dogs using very weak standards. Many good trial dogs could never work a 500 acre farm, and the real working dogs are dwindling in numbers as farmers are selling their farms to developers who split them into 10 acre "farmettes" for those of us who trial and want to keep a handful of sheep.

[Smokjbc]

150 years ago ... your dog either worked or it died. There was no agility, no herding trials, and no AKC.

 

Nowadays weak dogs are kept as pets, and some are labeled as Champion Herding dogs by organizations that gauge their herding dogs using very weak standards. Many good trial dogs could never work a 500 acre farm, and the real working dogs are dwindling in numbers as farmers are selling their farms to developers who split them into 10 acre "farmettes" for those of us who trial and want to keep a handful of sheep.

 

I agree that there are some substandard working dogs out there- but I have to strongly disagree with "many good trial dogs could never work a 500 acre farm". If we can agree, which I think we can on this forum at least, that "good trial dog" would equal a USBCHA Open level dog- then I would say the statement that many Open level dogs could not work a 500 acre farm is patently untrue.

[D Strickland]

I agree that there are some substandard working dogs out there- but I have to strongly disagree with "many good trial dogs could never work a 500 acre farm". If we can agree, which I think we can on this forum at least, that "good trial dog" would equal a USBCHA Open level dog- then I would say the statement that many Open level dogs could not work a 500 acre farm is patently untrue.

 

So why do I keep hearing from top handlers that I should never use my trial dog as a farm/chore dog ?

[D Strickland]

Dave,

 

I can see what you are trying to do, it just seems like it would be more useful to compare what modern day shepherds do with their dogs compared to the sports collies. But a good source for information on earlier sheepdogs (not 100 years ago, but in the first half of the century at least) is Eric Halsall’s Sheepdogs, My Faithful Friends.

 

Thank you ... I'll Google it !! LOL

[Laurae]

So why do I keep hearing from top handlers that I should never use my trial dog as a farm/chore dog ?

 

Is your trial dog running/placing in Open?

[Smokjbc]

So why do I keep hearing from top handlers that I should never use my trial dog as a farm/chore dog ?>>Outrun

 

I'm not sure, I've never heard that. I have heard that if you use your trial dog for working large groups or doing "in the trenches" type of work, that you may have to fine tune them before the big trial, just to get them listening well if they are used to working independent of the handler.

 

In the "Top Trainers Talk about Starting a Young Sheepdog"- at least two of the handlers (I think Tom Wilson and Kate Broadbent) primarily started their dogs on large flock, commercial work before they did trials training with them.

[D Strickland]

**** So ... getting back on topic .....

 

Does anyone have any stories, websites, books, or anything that describes the old working Border Collie dogs ... prior to herding trials ???

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

The material is out there, quite a bit of it. Check out libraries, books online on agriculture - many of these described management of sheep and working dogs along with this.

 

I can tell you, though, that I have seen many many references and the dog before trials was not superior to today's dog, from what I can tell. For instance, one memorable reference in Far From the Madding Crowd, where a farmer loses his entire breeding flock when his young dog drives them away from him instead of naturally gathering them - over the edge of a cliff. His sire was described as a dog we'd recognise today on any trial course - trained to whistles to work at great distances or close at hand, sensible, and a constant companion of the farmer.

 

The difference between today and then was the consistency of the breed. A good dog might produce or he might get pups that were worse than worthless. The trials were conceived as a way of promoting quality work and making top breeding stock available - and spreading natural working ability through the breed. That information is available in the description of the formation of the ISDS.

 

there's many amusing descriptions available of early trials. Many of them would have made the occasional trainwreck seen in today's novice trials, look like champion-level work. There's an amusing description that Barbara Carpenter relates, of the first ISDS trial, where Old English sheepdog handlers insisted on being included. Only one showed up, and that one spent a good deal of his time, after being sent, visiting the judge's stand. After his handler begged and pleaded for a while, the dog ambled up to the setout, and almost immediately lost his sheep after they were released.

 

Sheep at trials were not held with dogs or even with grain. They were either placed in a collapsible pen, or even lugged to the setout by strong men, and dropped when the dog came into view.

 

In fifteen years that I've been involved in Border Collies (a very short time), I feel that in many ways the quality of dogs and handling in some circles has gone up. It's much easier for me as a novice to get a dog that is practically "plug and play" for light duty. Access to instruction is easier.

 

As far as dogs that are more heavy duty or light duty, which I guess is what you mean by the 500 acres - that's less important than whether all the pieces are there to do the basics, without huge amounts of remedial training. Give me a dog that can get around an Open course consistently, and I will find a way to somehow run a 500 acre farm (of sheep, I assume), with that dog. Probably in doing so I will learn how to find a dog that can do it BETTER, but I am unlikely to be substantially let down by such a dog - barring actual health or temperamental failures.

[D Strickland]

.....es and the dog before trials was not superior to today's dog, from what I can tell. For instance, one memorable reference in Far From the Madding Crowd, where a farmer loses his entire breeding flock when his young dog drives them away from him instead of naturally gathering them - over the edge of a cliff. His sire was described as a dog we'd recognise today on any trial course - trained to whistles to work at great distances or close at hand, sensible, and a constant companion of the farmer.

..... am unlikely to be substantially let down by such a dog - barring actual health or temperamental failures.

 

Thank you so much ..... seems that my theory may be blown to bits !!!! LOL

 

You make some very good points ... and I may be wrong ( don't ever tell my wife that I admitted to being wrong !!! LOL )

 

I'm going to do a lot more research ...

[PennyT]

I don’t even know where to start with someone whose agenda is already fixed. The first necessity is an open mind.

 

I have researched the subject as thoroughly as is possible on this side of the Atlantic and my estimate is that working stockdogs called border collies today in the U.S. very much resemble landrace stockdogs in the British Isles called collies (spelled up to 10 different ways) a hundred fifty years ago except that now there seems to be a higher percentage of good ones, possibly because wise breeding choices are more widely available (travel is easier) and because fewer people who think a dog should train itself buy one for farm or ranch work.

 

Prior to the organized, as opposed to sporadic, development of sheepdog trials in this country in the 1930s, the term “sheep dog” was far more often employed ironically to describe a sheep killer, usually landrace collie type, than a reliable working dog.

 

As you research, bear in mind that breeds, particularly of lowly landrace stockdogs, were not fixed, and the term "English shepherd" was interchangeable with quite a few landrace types as was the term "collie."

[D Strickland]

I don’t even know where to start with someone whose agenda is already fixed. The first necessity is an open mind.

 

Not sure how you determined that I am close-minded and that my agenda is fixed .... we don't know each other. That statement was definitely uncalled for.

 

Thank you for the information ...

[Caroline Reichard]

Not sure how you determined that I am close-minded and that my agenda is fixed

 

I'm not Penny, but I'm pretty sure why she thought your mind was made up in advance. It's your own description of your project in your original post:

 

"I believe that up to maybe 100 or so years ago - before herding trials and conformation trials - the Border Collie ( aka Sheepdog or Collie ) was....

I am looking for any information that could help me support this claim."

 

This is the language of someone who comes to a project w/ a set of beliefs and looks for conformation of those beliefs rather then information as to whether or not they're accurate. If you meant something different, you should revise.

[D Strickland]

I'm not Penny, but I'm pretty sure why she thought your mind was made up in advance. It's your own description of your project in your original post:

 

Like I tell my girls .... never assume. Ask first !!!! My post just before Penny's would have made it clear to her that I was not looking for validation of my belief but information to prove or debunk that belief.

 

We all feel strongly about our breed and it can be very easy to judge. I have done it many times.

 

I am trying to research more about the breed and how it has evolved. I will never buy into a blind statement like " BCs are better now than ever", or "Kibble is better than meat", or "This car was owned by an old lady that only drove it to church". I need proof from multiple sources.

[PennyT]

Dave wrote "seems that my theory may be blown to bits."

 

According to your initial post, you were looking for back-up without doing any work. "He would not take-off to go work without being instructed to - and he would not need to be restrained to prevent this.

I am looking for any information that could help me support this claim. Anything from what the first herding trial courses were like to accounts from shepherds of their dog's temperaments and work ethics."

 

 

I have spent untold hours on the development of livestock working dogs in this country.

 

When you have some opinions based on documents, post them. I have tried to warn you of pitfalls when reading early materials. The worst is assuming that terms meant the same thing they do today. You sound as if you're looking for an old fashioned border collie the same way people look for an old-fashioned Aussie or the same way some conflate a modern ES with an older usage.

[D Strickland]

Dave wrote "seems that my theory may be blown to bits."

 

According to your initial post, you were looking for back-up without doing any work. "He would not take-off to go work without being instructed to - and he would not need to be restrained to prevent this.

I am looking for any information that could help me support this claim. Anything from what the first herding trial courses were like to accounts from shepherds of their dog's temperaments and work ethics."

I have spent untold hours on the development of livestock working dogs in this country.

 

When you have some opinions based on documents, post them. I have tried to warn you of pitfalls when reading early materials. The worst is assuming that terms meant the same thing they do today. You sound as if you're looking for an old fashioned border collie the same way people look for an old-fashioned Aussie or the same way some conflate a modern ES with an older usage.

 

A - I have done plenty of research, have bought and read old out-of-date books, and have arguments for both sides of the argument;

B - If you only read thru all of the BC Museum website you will understand some of my questions;

C - You have spent untold hours .. Well that's nice .. how about you share some of that knowledge;

D - I am looking for more information ... . if you are not willing to share why post at all !!??

E - I am NOT looking for a dog or any breed or temperament ... not sure where you got that from .

 

--- Can we stay on topic !!!?? If you want to share any info great ... if not ... don't !!!!

 

I didn't start this to talk about me or my dogs ... it's about the Border Collie breed and it's evolution.

 

If you have a problem with me let's take it off this list and email me privately at dave@outrunbc.com -- I will not reply to any further off-topic posts.

[PennyT]

"So why do I keep hearing from top handlers that I should never use my trial dog as a farm/chore dog ?"

 

What never?

 

I think you may have read to pull a top dog off chores with a large number a few weeks before a trial.

 

References on your assertion would be most welcome.

[stockdogranch]

I am looking for any information that could help me support this claim.

 

OK, so that would be the claim that:

 

...up to maybe 100 or so years ago...the Border Collie was...not neurotic or have OCD...[etc.]

 

So, in your claim you are implying that the Border Collie of today IS in fact neurotic, has OCD, must be restrained to keep from taking off to go work, and so on. By stating that this is a "claim" for which you are seeking information (evidence), you are stating that this is your working hypothesis. When you say that you are "looking for information to support this claim," that necessitates an already fixed position, hence, Penny's comment that your agenda is fixed. If that is not your hypothesis, then you simply misstated your position. No need for ruffled feathers.

 

OK, so, back to the topic: on what evidence is this hypothesis based? You mention "research"--can you explain a bit more/divulge your sources, etc.?

 

A

[D Strickland]

OK, so that would be the clai................

OK, so, back to the topic: on what evidence is this hypothesis based? You mention "research"--can you explain a bit more/divulge your sources, etc.?

A

 

I see many Border Collies being bred for Agility, Flyball, and Disc Dogs .... and that is producing dogs that are obsessive compulsive and that have "The Zoomies". On the other hand there are those dogs bred for conformation standards .... many of these dogs are bred for beauty only and have lost all herding instinct.

 

So .... I believe that - in general - the Border Collies of today are NOT the same as they were 150 years ago. I'm looking for claims supporting both sides of the argument.

[D Strickland]

on what evidence is this hypothesis based? You mention "research"--can you explain a bit more/divulge your sources, etc.?

 

A

In a BBC-Radio Scotland retrospective a few years ago, "In the Country: The Sheep Drovers", commentator Colin Miller interviewed men and women who were part of the droving tradition in Scotland in the first half of the 20th century.

 

"We had verra guid (good) dogs [said Charlie] and verra guid tackity (tacked) boots...[John said] ye stayed wi' yer sheep from daylight to dark...ye had to be there, there was no fences...whenever the grass was finished they'd just move on themselves, ye see. Ye had tae be there, oh my, they wouldna wait for ye. [but, Charlie claimed the sheep] didna need much lookin after. Ye looked after them the first month--an' yer dogs was guid at that time--there'd be a dog maybe wide oot on the other side of the field walkin' back and forth, nay bother tae them...grand dogs at that time...If ye had a pair o'guid dogs ye could manage, but if ye hadna guid dogs...the sheep...could get awa wi' a lot. Ach, dogs was better at that time...That dog was oot every day and just ken't (knew) that job."

 

=====

=====

 

Here is one that James Hogg told of his own dog, Sirrah:

 

I was a shepherd for ten years on the same farm, where I had...about 700 lambs put under my charge...at weaning-time. As they were of the...black-faced breed, the breaking of them was a very ticklish and difficult task. I was obliged to watch them night and day for the first four days, during which I had always a person to assist me. It happened one year, that just about midnight the lambs broke and came up the moor upon us, making a noise with their running louder than thunder. We got up and waved our plaids, and shouted, in hopes to turn them, but we only made matters worse...and by our exertions we cut them into three divisions.

 

I called out [to my dog] 'Sirrah, my man, they're away'...but owing to the darkness of the night, and the blackness of the moor, I never saw him at all...I ran here and there, not knowing what to do, but always at intervals, gave a loud whistle to Sirrah, to let him know that I was depending on him...We both concluded, that whatever way the lambs ran at first, they would finally land at the fold where they left their mothers, and...we bent our course towards that; but when we came there, we found nothing of them.

 

My companion then bent his course towards the farm...and I ran away westward for several miles, along the wild track where the lambs had grazed while following their dams. We met after it was day...but neither of us had been able to discover our lambs, nor any traces of them...We had nothing for it but to return to our master, and inform him that we had lost his whole flock of lambs.

 

On our way home, however, we discovered a body of lambs at the bottom of a deep ravine...and the indefatigable Sirrah standing in front of them, looking all around for some relief, but still standing true to his charge...When we first came in view of them, we concluded that it was one of the divisions of the lambs...But what was our astonishment, when we discovered that not one lamb of the whole flock was wanting! How had he got all the divisions collected in the dark is beyond my comprehension. The charge was left entirely to himself from midnight until the rising of the sun; and if all the shepherds in the Forest had been there to have assisted him, they could not have effected it with greater propriety.

[stockdogranch]

If you search the archives, you will find a number of threads, all rather lengthy and heated, regarding the breeding of "Border Collies" for other than working ability. I don't think many here will disagree that many (most?) of those bred for other than working ability (to a top level) are "different" from the working BC. In fact, there are a number on here who feel that those bred for other than working ability are really no longer a Border Collie (since the BC was developed for work and work only), and wish they would be called by some other name. You will see conformation bred dogs referred to as Barbie Collies and the sports bred ones referred to as Sport Collies. So, I am still not sure exactly what it is you are looking for, or what kind of "evidence" you hope to find. But as for the working bred BC, they are still out there, being bred for their original purpose, being used to do real work (yes, some on VERY large ranches and doing a fine job of it), and while they may not be as visible to the general public as those "other" dogs who are (unfortunately) still called Border Collies, they still exist.

 

A