Describing the original Border Collie - Help

[1sheepdoggal]

I see many Border Collies being bred for Agility, Flyball, and Disc Dogs .... and that is producing dogs that are obsessive compulsive and that have "The Zoomies". On the other hand there are those dogs bred for conformation standards .... many of these dogs are bred for beauty only and have lost all herding instinct.

 

So .... I believe that - in general - the Border Collies of today are NOT the same as they were 150 years ago. I'm looking for claims supporting both sides of the argument.

 

And that is the difference between "Working Border Collies" and Border Collies bred for different purposes. You can no longer "generalize" Collies as they are now 3 distinctivly different groups of collie. Working collies, sport bred collies, and conformation collies. Do I think either of the two types that are not bred to work will be able to work all day or run an open course and be competitive? Well, Id say there is plenty of evidence to support that they in fact cannot. Though there may be a very few that have done otherwise. Yes, the breed has taken on some changes throughout the years, and I think those that have eyes can all see that, though I dont think that sport breeders and conformation breeders are completly at fault for this either. BYB and puppy mills come to mind, as well as just bad breeders that claim to be breeding for working ability but that are not proving their dogs. How about registeries abroad? Look what the Aust, KC has done for? the breed.

As far as the working collie goes, I feel that we have improved the breed by opening up the gene pool and utilizing dogs from abroad. Most sport and conformation breeders dont do that. So yes, if you wanted to lump all Border Collies together, instead of looking at the breed as 3 seperate groups, then I guess you could say the breed is not what it was 150 years ago. But, how many Border Collies were there in the USA 150 years ago would be a better question. Anytime you take some thing out of its native habitat, its going to change, evlove, to suit the needs of those that would use it. 150 years ago, there wasnt fly ball, agility, dock jumping, at least not in a competitive way, so there was no reson for the breed to have elvolved. Not that I consider those things a reason for the breed to have evoloved in the first place, but it did. I guess I am confused as to why you even brought this up as if you look in the archives, Im sure you can find some recent threads that are quite close to what I think you are looking for, and I feel sure that you are aware of all this anyway.

[Smokjbc]

I think both of the examples you gave, Dave, of dogs earlier in the century and James Hogg's dog, are not unique to that time. Dogs do that still, you just have to go a bit further to find them. I spent some time working with a commercial flock last spring- we worked 600 ewes and 700+lambs through docking- all of the Peruvians had a young border collie- from trial lines I found out later- that stayed with the shepherd and flock at all times. I used my own Open level dog to assist, and although her eyes bugged out when a 100 count lamb gang tried to break straight for her, she adjusted fine to the larger numbers and I have no doubt that she'd be useful day in and day out on an operation like that.

 

What you are describing is, in my opinion, not just a result of breeding, but the training involved with teaching a dog it's job. Border Collies are task related animals- I'm sure that in any of the examples, the dogs did not come out of the box being able to tend to sheep or find 700 lambs in the dark. It took time and experience at their job to develop that, along with the breeding. So take our trial dogs and put them in the same kinds of situations, and I think they would be able to do it.

[Tea]

Also it might be helpful for you to talk directly to folks who have done shepherding in Scotland with large flocks. Jule Hill and her husband know some pretty old shepherds. Fun to talk to.

 

I often take out flocks of 50 to 100 to browse loose with two dogs. We sit quietly and watch them for hours. Dogs at my feet, sleeping. Then when its time to come home I get on my horse and the dogs go to work.

 

The terrain is different, deep woods some clear cuts with grass. Roads, logging roads and trails. But no fences, unless I can't watch them and set up my netting and then have to come back and get the sheep.

[Lenajo]

A good friend of mine spent a great deal of time in the UK with the late shepherds of fame we see mentioned in collie history,and a few of the greats we still have today as well. As far as he can tell, the dogs now are pretty much the same (and yes, he is referring to working lines only, not all this foofoo stuff) in physical and work type - perhaps a *little* more refined, but in general the same.

 

The dogs back then were kept up in a barn stall or chained to a doghouse when not working. He also got to see Wiston Cap when he was alive and retired - he was "kenneled" in an old pig pen. All of those dogs spent the majority of their days on the hill, but when not needed very few would risk them wandering about. Those that did paid dearly - just as we would today. Dogs lost to poison, to cars, shot for worrying sheep alone, or just wandered off and never came back.

 

I think if anything is different now is that more people have the money to keep extra dogs, which requires tighter management to prevent issues. Year ago most of those sheperds kept only a few dogs, most of which who were working, and perhaps a breeding female with pups. Nobody maintained a stable of young prospects that required elaborate kennels or schedules of feeding and working - there simply wasn't the money or the time.

[PennyT]

Hogg provides no evidence for your position. He also wrote about the distinction between collies for the hill and for the home place. He contrasts the two with the hill dog as intense, always looking for work, and a nuisance around the barn while the farmish type is too well mannered to raid the diary but not capable of much at a distance. That is not verbatim but it's the gist.

 

And you still haven't listed your sources for the comment about never using a trial dog for regular work.

[D Strickland]

And you still haven't listed your sources for the comment about never using a trial dog for regular work.

 

Sorry ... I'm not about to start name dropping just to please you. That would cause much more harm then good... and it has nothing to do with the research I'm conducting.

[D Strickland]

And that is the difference between "Working Border Collies" and Border Collies bred for different purposes. You can no longer "generalize" Collies ...............f you look in the archives, Im sure you can find some recent threads that are quite close to what I think you are looking for, and I feel sure that you are aware of all this anyway.

 

I'm digging thru the archives now. Believe it or not I've searched high and low but never looked at the archives.

 

thank you so much ... and you're right ... we can no longer "generalize" the Border Collie.

 

What prompted my research a couple years ago was that when I decided to get a border collie to work sheep and goats I went to the AKC - like most people do - and found an AKC breeder. Needless to say that I quickly discovered the ABCA and USBCHA and now only trial in USBCHA and AHBA.

 

There are more Sport and Conformation Border Collies now than before - because 150 years ago there was no Agility and Conformation.

 

I'll keep going thru the archives but I think this tread is over - I received a lot of info and links sent to me privately and some info posted on this list. Unfortunately I seem to have aggravated some people on this list - not sure why - but I'd rather back out now than get in a fight with people I don't know and don't care to ever meet.

[1sheepdoggal]

Dave, If you can find the threads we are talking about, it is possible, that a thread started out on one subject and morphed into another, so the titles may not lead you to them. Look for threads that run long, like 6,7,8,or 9 and read through them a bit. Probably started in either the General section, or politics? Hope that helps

[Eileen Stein]

So why do I keep hearing from top handlers that I should never use my trial dog as a farm/chore dog ?

 

I have never heard that from a top handler, and I've frequently heard the opposite. You don't think Jack Knox or Tom Wilson or Bill Berhow use their trial dogs as farm dogs??

 

Unfortunately I seem to have aggravated some people on this list - not sure why -

 

Your belligerent tone would be my guess.

 

but I'd rather back out now than get in a fight with people I don't know and don't care to ever meet.

 

Just to take an example from the same sentence.

 

Dave, your basic question is unclear to me. You started off: "I believe that up to maybe 100 or so years ago - before herding trials and conformation trials - the Border Collie ( aka Sheepdog or Collie ) was a balanced and smart working dog. He was not neurotic or have OCD. He would work a full day and at night he would lay down in the field with the shepherd. He would not take-off to go work without being instructed to - and he would not need to be restrained to prevent this."

 

The clear implication is that border collies today are not balanced, not smart working dogs, are neurotic or have OCD, do not work a full day, and need to be restrained from taking off to work without being instructed to. Are we supposed to just accept that as true, and be subject to reprimand for going off topic if we question it? And if it's not true, then what would be the evidentiary value of old documents showing that border collies 100 years ago were also balanced, smart, etc.?

 

Also, it sounds as if you're lumping Kennel Club Border Collies and working border collies together as one entity. That makes little sense, since they are being bred by different criteria for different purposes. Of course such diverse breeding is going to produce dogs with different characteristics. Most people here would distinguish between the two in addressing a question like this, resulting in most of the answers you initially received being phrased in terms of "working border collies" or "working sheepdogs."

 

Your "before herding trials and conformation trials" implies that both had a similar impact on the evolution of the border collie. Is that what you believe? Do you want to compare the dogs of today that were shaped by conformation showing (or breeding for agility or flyball) with the border collies of old, or do you want to compare the dogs of today who were shaped by sheepdog trials to the border collies of old? Or do you want to lump both populations together? Or do you just want a list of old books about working sheepdogs? It's unclear to me from what you wrote, and I have to assume it was unclear to others as well, and that's why they tried with questions and statements which you consider off-topic to pinpoint what you were seeking.

[Lenajo]

I received a lot of info and links sent to me privately

 

I'm always leary of information that's only for pm use. It's just BC history - what could possibly be secret about that? Hmmmmmmm

[D Strickland]

I have never heard that from a top handler, and I've frequently heard the opposite. You don't think Jack Knox or s of old? Or do you want to lump both populations together? Or do you just want a list of old books about working sheepdogs? It's unclear to me from what you wrote, and I have to assume it was unclear to others as well, and that's why they tried with questions and statements which you consider off-topic to pinpoint what you were seeking.

Hi Eileen,

 

My initial post was unclear and this thread has gone from bad to worse since. I love this breed and what the ABCA and USBCHA are doing. Unfortunately my emails aren't always clear and are often misinterpreted as being belligerent. Which is why I don't post much.

 

My question should've read : " Does anyone have any information on how the Border Collie has evolved from what it was 150 years ago ? "

 

But I didn't ... now I have to lick my wounds and go into hiding for 3 months ... that'll teach me.

 

Yes ... I was asking about Border Collies in general. I did not specify KC, sport, or working Border Collies.

 

This thread was doomed from the beginning ............ My goal was not to ruffle feathers and definitely not to call ALL Border Collies neurotic and with OCD - only a majority of the Sport Bred ones.

 

Going into hiding now ....

[Eileen Stein]

But I didn't ... now I have to lick my wounds and go into hiding for 3 months ... that'll teach me.

 

Well, I think three months would be excessive, myself. Maybe just long enough to formulate a more focused question . . .

 

The breed has certainly split and is going in different directions -- I think everyone would agree with that. I don't think it's productive to consider all dogs with papers that say "Border Collie" as being a single category. If one is trying to breed useful working sheepdogs, what good is it to try to establish whether dogs who have been bred for entirely different qualities are as good as the good working sheepdogs of the past? You wouldn't expect them to be, would you? Whereas asking whether the border collies actually being bred for work nowadays are as good as the working sheepdogs of the past is a very important question, because the answer will tell you whether working breeders of today in general (and your breeding program -- if you are a breeder -- in particular) are on the right track or not. I think the dogs being bred by the best working breeders -- those who understand pedigrees, are trying to produce useful working dogs for real livestock work, and test their breeding stock and their offspring at the highest levels of sheepdog trialing -- are producing dogs as good as the border collies of 100+ years ago, if not more so, in every way including temperament. But there's no doubt that dogs bred by lesser breeders to less-demanding standards dilute the overall quality of the breed. And there are a lot of them -- more all the time.

[Amelia]

"I believe that up to maybe 100 or so years ago - before herding trials and conformation trials - the Border Collie ( aka Sheepdog or Collie ) was a balanced and smart working dog."

 

In the border lands between England and Scotland where the earliest sheepdogs originate there is still no such thing as a "herding" trial among shepards and top hands. There are trials and dog trials. From my experience, "herding" is patently American, AKC, and greatly scorned by many of us with sheepdogs and American top hands. Personally, it's a matter of tradition and respect for our dogs that have been 200 years in the making as well as the shepards that bred and trained them. Whenever I hear (or read) "herding with my BC or border" it's like fingernails on the chalkboard for me. But I've learned to keep my mouth shut most of the time in the interest of getting along.

 

After a lifetime in the horse business, years spent on a ranch and years of trialing, I can tell you, without reservation, that the working stockdog is balanced and oh so smart. Also, that the AKC conformation variety is not.

 

I don't know which top hand told you that using your border collie on large numbers of sheep would ruin them, but just the opposite is true. The top hands that I know would all agree on that.

 

For written material on the history of sheepdogs, I would suggest the ISDS website and their store. Also you might try The International sheepdog News. They have a pretty good library of titles too.

[Pearse]

In a BBC-Radio Scotland retrospective a few years ago, "In the Country: The Sheep Drovers", commentator Colin Miller interviewed men and women who were part of the droving tradition in Scotland in the first half of the 20th century.

 

"We had verra guid (good) dogs [said Charlie] and verra guid tackity (tacked) boots...[John said] ye stayed wi' yer sheep from daylight to dark.. (stuff deleted). Ach, dogs was better at that time...That dog was oot every day and just ken't (knew) that job."

 

One day, I was like interviewing my grandad and he had this to say about the first half of the twentieth century....

 

"In those days, there was no such thing as cars. We walked to school and work every day, five miles through snow drifts as high as a man. And boots, we were so poor in those days we dinna have boots, and it was uphill both ways there and back with just a handful of cold porridge to get us through the day me and your uncles hitched tae the plow and our da whipping us all day long. Ach men were men in them days.

 

Some things never change.

[afrancis]

http://mzonline.com/bin/view/Python/WeWerePoorSketch

 

Okay, sorry, I couldn't help it....

Ailsa

[Katelynn & Gang]

 

I'd say real working bred dogs (such of the foundation of the breed which are the dogs you are referring to, 150 years ago) are still the same in work ethic and instinct, if not better. And I surely am no were near being a top hand and from the looks of it, might never have the time to train a dog to Open level but I sure do enjoy watching what 200 years of careful selective breeding has given me. I have also done a lot of research and reading about this topic.

 

I believe that Open level dogs should do farm work and believe most do when they are not off trialing, correct me if I am wrong?

 

A good project or book would be about how the breed has been split so many times and recreated by the Fancy to just look a certain way and nothing else. Then how dog sports have also taken a turn and are/have created their own breed for sport use as well. Wish I could write better, I'd make my own!

 

JMHO

[juliepoudrier]

[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KjRp-I believe that Open level dogs should do farm work and believe most do when they are not off trialing, correct me if I am wrong?

Well, I don't have a flock of 500 sheep, but I do rely on my open-level trial dog as my "right hand man" here on the farm. She makes my work quick and easy, so much so that I have to force myself not to use her so that the younger (up and coming trial dogs) can have the opportunity for practical work. I don't know of any person who trials and also raises livestock who doesn't use the same dogs for both. This is very much like a perennial discussion that comes up on the Herders list where the folks there with other breeds try to claim that border collies are good only for open field work and can't do the close-in work. My standard answer to those sorts of comments is pretty much the same--I don't have one dog I use to gather the flock and another to help me in the chutes or pens--it's all the same dog.

 

J.

[D Strickland]

Well, I don't have a flock of 500 sheep, but I do rely on my open-level trial dog as my "right hand man" here on the farm. She makes my work quick and easy, so much so that I have to force m--I don't have one dog I use to gather the flock and another to help me in the chutes or pens--it's all the same dog.

J.

Thanks Julie ... The Top Handlers I was referring to are not at the level of Jack/Kathy Knox or Alasdair/Patricia MacRae but are handlers that run in Open in the Oklahoma/Missouri/Arkansas area. Maybe the ones that only work their trial dogs at trials are the ones that are pattern training their dogs. Similar to what AKC herding is all about.

 

I heard this from 3 different handlers in the last few months and was getting really worried that USBCHA trialing was going the way of the AKC.

 

Thank you all for clarifying this,

[stockdogranch]

My response is basically the same as Julie's. My dogs are Open cattle trial dogs, but are used every day on my sheep here at home--not 500, but a decent sized flock. I also hire out to do setout at a number of sheep trials, and there will use my dogs on 300-400 sheep. I know some folks who have a large goat operation who sometimes call me out to help them do some sort of major job with their goats (300+ of them). I never even consider it an issue to take those same dogs the very next weekend to a cattle trial. So not only is there no problem in switching from large flocks and chores to trialling, but there is also no problem in switching from sheep to cattle to goats and back and forth.

 

I think that the problem for some lies in the fact that there are now some people who only train their dogs to get around a trial course (even Open handlers), rather than training their dogs to just *work livestock.*

 

A

[juliepoudrier]

I think that the problem for some lies in the fact that there are now some people who only train their dogs to get around a trial course (even Open handlers), rather than training their dogs to just *work livestock.*

Exactly. And I think part of the problem there is that as stockdog trialing becomes more of a mainstream "sport" there will be (are) a lot more folks who don't actually raise livestock who are running in trials. There's nothing wrong with that, really, but if you don't have regular chores to do with your dog and just train for courses on someone else's sheep or keep just a few training sheep, then you are likely to end up with a dog who has never gained the necessary experience to be really useful for regular farm work. Working a whole flock is different from working 3-4 sheep around a trial course, as is working ewes with lambs, lambs by themselves, rams, etc. Goats and cattle are different still.

 

I'm going to a cattle trial this weekend. My youngsters have been on cattle once since last May when we went to their first cattle trial. I fully expect they'll manage--maybe not as well as the dogs who work cattle regularly, but well enough. And that's because, as Anna says, it's *livestock work,* which they have learned here on the farm.

 

J.

[Tea]

Hold it now, do I understand correctly that some folks think border collies are not good for in close work?

 

Boy I find that incredible.

 

With my milking sheep after my lambs are a month old, I have to split them off the ewes and keep them at home while my main group goes out to browse loose during the day.

 

As you can imagine it is a lot of sorting out.

 

I regularly have to sort my milk goats from the sheep in the mornings.

 

And of course all your normal work during the year.

 

We do this in paddocks without the benefit of much else, besides the dogs.

 

I couldn't do this without the border collies.

 

You know my guess is, people say things like that and it is because they haven't experienced what that kind of close work is like.

[juliepoudrier]

You know my guess is, people say things like that and it is because they haven't experienced what that kind of close work is like.

Actually I think they say it because they have herding breeds whose work ability and ethic has been so diluted by the bench show world that they are working from a much lower common denominator. The standard refrain is something like "Breed X was meant to work in close on the farm and that's what it's good at, while border collies are only good for gathering large areas." This goes hand-in-hand with comments like "AKC and AHBA trials are a better test of real farm work than border collie trials are [because the latter don't require work in real tight spaces, like arenas]." In other words, it's a belief system that lets them feel better about their own choice of "herding dog" breed and serves as justification for the types of trials they attend and titles they seek.

 

J.

[Tea]

Hum?

 

Strange

 

But in the trials they have to do the shed work in the open which I think is much harder?

 

They do all their work in the arena? That is because of the different breeds of dogs?

[Lora]

Sorry ... I'm not about to start name dropping just to please you. That would cause much more harm then good... and it has nothing to do with the research I'm conducting.

 

Dave and all....

 

I have been told by a good trainer to not use my dog to do chores. And my interpretation of what he meant was.....if you are not going to keep the criteria of good work the same doing chores with a trial dog....then letting the dog "do its own thing" might not be what is best for the relationship with your particular dog. I think sometimes while doing chores...I find I might get lazy...and through the laziness....not take time to correct the dog when it is wrong. For me, I use my dogs to do chores...I have a new girl that benefits from real work and understanding the end result of the task. But as I drive the sheep down to graze the neighbor's pasture, I have seen her pull up at 100 yards...because that is where I always call her off from that job. Twice, and I started driving further and then going down and working the sheep so we did not always end on a 100 yard drive. So for me, when I do chores, I always remind myself to not get lazy...and stick with Jack Knox's motto of "let the dog be right and correct it when it is wrong".....but the part where he says "but don't MAKE the dog be right" is where I think chores are fabulous training tools. Where in training, I might feel the urge to step in and help the dog be right....when doing chores, I often let her sort herself out and only correct when it is wrong.

 

I just sold a dog that was FAB at chores.....but not good at trialing. She was loose-eyed and very forward....and tight on flanks. As I worked on these things...she would stress and it was not a good fit. But the place where she is now....slicy flanks....forward push with little feel...doesn't matter...she gets the chores done to the happiness of those that have her. So, maybe the folks telling you not to do chores....well their dogs could do chores but they don't want to let go of their criteria for good trial work...right/wrong or indifferent.

 

Just a different way of looking at the subject of chores...not much to do with your research

 

Lora

[Amelia]

"So why do I keep hearing from top handlers that I should never use my trial dog as a farm/chore dog ?"

 

Hello all, Is it possible that whoever told you this was referring specifically to you and/or your dogs? Because if you and/or your dogs aren't properly trained in the quiet control of livestock, it would be possible to do much more harm than good, especially on a large flock. I can't think of any other reason why a "top hand" would say such a thing.

 

"I heard this from 3 different handlers in the last few months and was getting really worried that USBCHA trialing was going the way of the AKC."

 

Go to any AHBA, ASCA or AKC "herding" event, then go to the USBCHA national finals and let us know how you feel.

 

I was hosted for a month by a former Intern'l Supreme Champion when I was over for the World Trial in Ireland. During that month the way we trained was by working. We checked about 1000 or so ewes almost on a daily basis, doctored sheep and cattle, weaned and sorted lambs and dipped about 1200 hd over 2 days. Other than that we spent exactly 3 days actually practicing for the trial and that was spent on the double lift. We also went to 4 other trials besides the world. My open trial dog got off the plane in Edinburough after about a 24 hour flight and was on the hill working the next morning at 7.

 

So please don't suggest that our dogs can't do work at hand and can't manage large flocks. I'm absolutely, 100% sure they can.