How did you determine your style of dog?

[DeltaBluez Tess]

Folks,

 

How did you determine your style of your working dogs?

 

Was it a particular lines and why?

 

Was it your own breeding?

 

Was it because you saw the parents/siblings worked?

 

Also from your first working dog, how far did you vary from that dog when you got a second dog? And why?

 

 

Diane

[Bo Peep]

My first dog was just a pet. Got her on a whim. I went back to see who her father was, she wasn't papered. He was. They hated him. Never let him out of his kennel and said he used to play frisbee as a pup. He was a split faced beautiful dog- $50.00 with papers. I took him home, the vet didn't think he would make it. Took me a year to earn his trust, then we started herding. Turned out he had a natural outrun and anyone could work him.I wish I could find another like him. That was a long time ago.

 

2nd herding dog- a little tougher and harder on a newbie-(me) We worked through it. I learned a lot and that I wanted a little softer dog.

 

3rd dog- perfect, Migraine.

 

I bred the tough dog to the soft dog and got some remarkable pups- I kept one from each litter. They did great. I don't breed anymore.

 

I got Usher out of Don's Blue, because I loved him.

[1sheepdoggal]

Folks,

 

How did you determine your style of your working dogs?

 

Its taken numerous dogs and 13 years to figure that out, and some days Im still not sure!

 

Was it a particular lines and why?

 

Ive never really been sold on any particular lines, (yet) If I like the dam and sire, or the dog itself, then I look at the breeding.

 

Was it your own breeding?

 

Ive bred a few litters and really didnt care for any of the pups Id kept out all that much in so far as workers go. Ive come to the conclusion its best to leave it to the pros.

 

Was it because you saw the parents/siblings worked?

 

Thats how I picked my two best dogs Ive had to date, by knowing the parents. I bought them both from the same breeder

 

Also from your first working dog, how far did you vary from that dog when you got a second dog? And why?

 

I think Im always looking for that one dog that will be like my first, he was a great dog for me. By going back to the same breeder I had hoped to get close to him with the next one, but they are day and night different, which I really dont consider a bad thing. So it really wasnt my intention to get another so much different, thats just the way it worked out.

 

Diane

[Tea]

We got Cap at 6 months from rescue and frankly took a chance. He has alot of white. He is a softer(Weaker) dog, will heel but not head. Although he thinks through problems that could baffle a tougher dog. He is great with ewes and lambs, kinda weird as he is soft, but his diplomancy sees him through. And he has a tremendous lookback. Runs pretty wide. Do not know his breeding. Although we were sent some papers that might be his. He is loosing his hearing.

Cap is not as good as Gunny working from horseback. My stud stepped on his paw and he has never forgiven horses for that.

Really good at finding sheep in the woods. Not as great in close work. Works well with other dogs. Cap will catch a lamb sometimes.

 

Gunny came from rescue. I was told about her and went to watch her the first time she was put on sheep at a clinic. She was about a year old. Completely different from Cap, which was what I wanted. Very direct, forceful, game and tough, not very diplomatic, Great with my tough rams and cattle. Will head or heel. Not a very wide outrun. Great work ethic. Very fit.

Really good at working in feedlot situations. Works ok with other dogs. Gunny will catch a lamb, she will catch anything actually which can be very helpful. But you have to watch her as she can be too tough.

 

Sweep the Broom is coming 8 months. By Dan and out of Ann from Geri in Calif. www.bcollies.com (Both Parents from Derek overseas.) I have had him on 20 dog broke ewes just for the heck of it recently. Not to train just to have a peek. (Used Cap to Keep them off the fence then layed Cap Down to let Pup work.)

He is tough, strong, but worked well, didn't blast through the flock and circled well, listened and stopped. Very fit naturally.

I bought him because I like Derek's and Geri's dogs. I need a dog that can work all day and work well with other dogs, and be pretty strong.

[Smokjbc]

How did you determine your style of your working dogs?

 

I was heavily influenced by trialing mostly in cow dog trials for many years- so what I looked for in the beginning is not quite the same as what I look for now. Not because a different dog is needed but because I was too focused on "tough" vs. "smart". I do like a pushy dog, which my first real dog was not (we are not counting the real first dog- who never amounted to anything)- but she was extremely brave and strong on the head- which I have not had the like of again. Now, I like a dog with a big motor but that uses it's head on stock.

 

Was it a particular lines and why?

 

I happened to start with a mother/daughter combination for #1 and #2, but now that "line" is no longer, although I could find dogs similarly bred as the daughter, they are probably too plain working for my taste now.

 

Was it your own breeding?

 

Yes.

 

Was it because you saw the parents/siblings worked?

 

Yes- I bred my old cow dog Rhett- who was perfect dog for a beginner and was strong to the head. I am not sorry I bred her, although it probably wasn't a great breeding- but I got my Nellie out of it who has been a great dog for me, although not a trials winner. The sire was a McCallum bred dog that could move anything in front of him but also not a good dog for trials- too much dog and needed 50 cows not 5 at a time to look good.

 

Also from your first working dog, how far did you vary from that dog when you got a second dog? And why?

 

Rhett and Nellie are very different dogs- Rhett had alot of eye and would head only, very careful and deliberate about her work. Nellie is a turbo dog- all flanks, very little eye, brave in a way but not strong to the head although she will hit a heel. I'd like to make a clone of their combination though. Both dogs pretty bright and with good stock sense, although Nellie likes to push the issue more than she should. My #3 dog is more like #1, but not strong at all and with more style. Nellie has been a great chore dog- better than Rhett because with her lack of eye, she doesn't threaten ewes with lambs and they don't face her up like they did Rhett. She's got no bottom and will always get it done- even if it's not trial-perfect, there is no doubt in my mind that she can get just about anything done if given a chance. So now I want that, but with a little more style and listening ability .

 

 

 

For me, what I like in a dog has alot to do with what I've discovered doesn't work for me, or any experience where I felt it was the dog's method that let me down (as opposed to training/situation).

[Debbie Meier]

Folks,

 

How did you determine your style of your working dogs?

 

Was it a particular lines and why?

 

Was it your own breeding?

 

Was it because you saw the parents/siblings worked?

 

Also from your first working dog, how far did you vary from that dog when you got a second dog? And why?

Diane

 

We're still in the discovery stage, we acquired Jake (Hooker x Fly) after Wayne watched other dogs from his lines being trialed by his breeder (Pete Carmichael), they made a lasting impression on Wayne so we decided to go that route for our first pup. At this point I'm measuring all my other dogs to Jake, I would like it if he was not quite so sensitive but I'm learning how to deal with it, I love the way he travels, covers ground. The best way I can describe his working style, he wears his emotions on his sleave and IMO shows alot of style but he has faults. He's not perfect, lacking a bit of confidence (hopefully he will age out of some of it, he just turned 2) and gets a little too amp'ed up sometimes, getting alittle "Hot", both issues may be more my fault then the dogs. I have some pups I'm raising out of Jake they carry alot of the same traits without being quite so sensitive or hot, I'm waiting to see how they develop and hopefully I'll be able to tell if they are just different in those areas because I handled them differently or because they are just a different style of dog. When Jake first arrived I let him learn on his own, without realizing it I got him beat, got him run over, let him chase to much and hold the stock up to long, I made a mess of it, over corrected, under corrected, I wish I could have it all back to do over and train him without making all the mistakes. I guess if he turns out ok it's a pretty good testiment to his breeding (LOL).

 

I'm working with as many different style of dogs I can, a cull here and there from other trainers/handlers, some are man made hard or soft, some are just wired that way, some cover and hold up sheep easily but are difficult to get to drive some seem to drive easily but are hard to get to the cover and control, I'm trying to learn how to adjust and get the most of each individual so I can better determine what charecteristics are influenced heavily by training or have little influence other then by breeding selection.

 

Deb

[juliepoudrier]

How did you determine your style of your working dogs?

 

Watching dogs work and knowing my own preferred training style.

 

Was it a particular lines and why?

 

It has turned out to be a particular line, mostly, because I like very natural dogs. I don't like drilling or training in things I think should come naturally (like outruns), so I prefer a dog with a natural gather, a good thinker, and good stock sense (good feel for the stock). I can put confidence in a dog, but I'd rather not have to spend a lot of time dong that, and I'd like the dog to have a natural willingness to grip when needed.

 

Was it your own breeding?

 

No. Not then.

 

Was it because you saw the parents/siblings worked?

 

Yes. This was the sole reason I chose a pup from a particular litter. I had watched both sire and dam at trials, and had seen the dam working at home too. I knew enough about both owners to know how the dogs were worked on a regular basis (e.g., the sire was used regularly to set sheep at trials, in the owner's work as a shearer, and on the owner's farm on both cattle and sheep--so I knew he had what it took to do a full day's work).

 

Also from your first working dog, how far did you vary from that dog when you got a second dog? And why?

 

The second dog wasn't a lot like the first, but the price was right for a trained dog, and I thought I could learn a lot from her as a handler. I think she has a lot of natural in her, just that it was suppressed by rather hard training at the start. But her differentness from my first dog helped to expand my abilities as a handler and trainer, which was my main goal in getting her, and she has actually turned out to be a good dog for me and has qualities that I really like in a dog (she's one of my two open trial dogs). I wonder how she would have turned out had I had her from the start. Unfortunately, her line no longer exists since most of the dogs from that line went to farmers who didn't breed.

 

My first dog was the perfect dog for me (she's my other open trial dog and my main farm dog). She has her faults, some of which I could have corrected had I known enough to do so when I started her as a novice handler. The faults she has are things I would try to select against in future dogs (e.g., running too wide; although if I liked a pup from wide-running lines, I'd at least know that I could correct it from the start instead of letting it go, like I did with Twist), but I am also pretty careful about selecting from crosses I know will likely suit me because I am not one to pass a dog on if it doesn't work for me, so I try to stack the deck in my favor from the start by choosing dogs from lines that suit my training and working style. That's not to say I'd not look at a dog from different lines, but I'd have to have seen dogs from those lines working (at home and away from home) or else have them recommended by someone who knows me, how I work/train dogs, and the type of dogs I like.

 

ETA: I imagine it's possible that if I had started with a different style of dog that I'd also like a different style of dog....

 

J.

[osioda]

As for myself, over the many years of having an working borders, the first thing to learn is don't expect the same thing out of the next dog you get that your first dog had, because the traits are never the same one dog will do one thing better than another, and the dog you have now will probably do something better than your others, But in my line of work and livestock I use, I have to have a very powerful dog, and I watch an breed and buy for this type and it is something you don't decide on a whim, if this is the right dog for this type, a typical dog that has been run on sheep is not powerful enough, not no offense to anyone, but I need one more powerful and I also watch for one that does not give up and will continue till the job is done.

A lot of borders I have seen over the years seem to give up or tire to easy, maybe even get bored and want to quit, for me this is not an option in the dogs I use. And also the borders I work with I can take them out an move any type of livestock with them, I train on Cattle, Hogs, and start them usually on sheep or goats.

steve

[stockdogranch]

How did you determine your style of your working dogs?

 

I had had several dogs, none of whom I was totally thrilled with, although they were good first dogs to learn on. I then acquired a young dog who was pretty talented, and, while very calm and low-key, would move anything. We started sheep trialling, but soon switched to cattle. He started me in the direction I would eventually take--dogs who are sensible, very level-headed, but tough and willing to bite either end when needed, but not gratuitously.

 

Was it a particular lines and why?

 

Then I was at a sheep trial, and Loren Holmes had this little slick-coated, prick eared, tri-colored thing, who was just barely a year old. He wasn't running her, but used her to do some exhaust for the Open dogs. There was just something about the way she handled not only her stock but herself, that absolutely amazed me. This was a young Puzzel. I saw her and knew immediately that I wanted one "just like her." Put my name on the list, and got Riddle from a subsequent same breeding. Riddle did, in fact, turn out to be essentially just like her sis--very level-headed on stock, very natural as far as feeling and reading stock, very biddable--everything I wanted and then some. This line is extremely consistent, although I will also add that apparently my style of training and Loren's seem to be pretty similar, as well, which I'm sure adds to the consistency.

 

Was it your own breeding?

 

Not then, but now, yes. My lines are essentially the same as Loren's. Both Puzzel and Riddle were bred to Rudy (a Stetson dog), and the pups were true to these lines. Puzzel has been bred to Loren's good male dog, Leo (McCallum lines and Alexander's Griz), 3 times now, and the pups are all true to the family (I just saw one pup from each of the three litters this past weekend--an almost 2 year old, a one year old, and a six month old). Riddle has now (as of this last weekend) also been bred to Leo, so I am very anxious for these next pups.

 

Was it because you saw the parents/siblings worked?

 

Yes, as stated above, it was primarily due to seeing Puzzel work, but I had also seen the mother, Lucky (line-bred Wisp), as well as the sire, Russell (a Stetson dog), work, and liked both. Lucky in particular was a really strong dog. In these lines, the really good stuff seems to be passed along through the females.

 

Also from your first working dog, how far did you vary from that dog when you got a second dog? And why?

 

My first kind of working dog was just a mixed breed from the shelter. Then I went through a succession of dogs, trying to find the right fit. When I saw Puzzel, I knew these were the dogs for me. At this point, I hope to continue these lines, and to keep them true to what we have going now, as that's what I'm hooked on. I can't imagine wanting anything else.

 

A

[Wendy V]

Boy, I could answer this, but with 10 dogs, I sure I would bore everyone to tears. Let's just say that I find that I like a lot of different dogs, of different types and methods of work. But there is one dog I own has me entranced by his method of work. I bought him sight unseen because I loved the method that his sired shown and I wasn't disappointed. In fact, he became a better dog than his sire was. I would like to reproduce it, though I know the attempt may produce something entirely new. Worth a try, though, I think.

[Carson Crazies]

How did you determine your style of your working dogs?

 

Well, I haven't really figured it out just yet. I'm working on it - and I'm starting to get a feel for what I like and what I don't like. I'm only starting my second pup right now, so not a whole lot to compare at this point.

 

Was it a particular lines and why?

 

Yes - I chose my first dog (who is more like my second dog, because the first was pretty much a flop, bless her pea-pickin heart) based on both particular lines and my liking the dam quite specifically. I'd really liked not only the way she works, but also the relationship that she and her handler have.

 

Was it your own breeding?

 

no!

 

Was it because you saw the parents/siblings worked?

 

Yes. I'd seen relatives - grandparents, parents, half-siblings, cousins and so forth and so on, and liked the natural sort of work that they do. At that point I didn't really know specifically WHAT it was that I liked, and I didn't know enough to NOT like things. I just knew I liked the way the dogs worked.

 

Also from your first working dog, how far did you vary from that dog when you got a second dog? And why?

 

Whooo! Other end of the spectrum in a lot of ways. They're very, very different types of dogs (but share some of the same qualities that I DO like). It's really hard to say too much because my second dog is still a pup. And Why? A good friend said she thought I'd really like one of these dogs, and I trust her judgement. So far she's been very right! I suspect I'm going to wind up liking several different types of dogs.

[Shoofly]

How did you determine your style of your working dogs?

 

I'll let you know when i figure it out.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

I don't have a style, my sheep do, apparently. I'm only just figuring this out. My last clinic with a well-known clinician, he came back at one point from working my dog hard, looked at me a bit wide-eyed, and said, "You always do this to yourself, don't you?"

 

I didn't know what to say then but now I do. No, it's not me, it's my sheep. And unless I sell off and go for a lovely group of timid little hair sheep, or humble Dorsets, it will always be that way.

 

But, I'm gradually learning where to go for a dog that can handle these sheep with a cool head. I've learned to appreciate cool headedness when combined with sufficient power and top notch balance. All my dogs have been a bit short of the first and it makes them hard to train because these traits seem to go along with less eye.

 

I've also learned the value of having another dog around that is the opposite in style. One isn't always working whole flocks. Here, a dog with a lot of eye also saves us a lot of steps. So I always plan to have a super natural worker around.

[Mark Billadeau]

I'll let you know when i figure it out.

 

 

I'm finding that "my style of dog" is constantly evolving; often driven by the flaws/holes in my current dogs.

[Shoofly]

I've said this before, but i actually find i like having a team of dogs that complement each other. They all have their flaws and weaknesses, and their strengths. Different livestock and situations sometimes are better handled with different dogs.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

Exactly Robin. When I worked Cord and Ben together, it made Ben a lot better. And Cord appreciated having Ben's bull-in-the-china-shop power as backup - it made him more confident.

 

Funny, I just realized something. I retired Ben fully, back a year ago, and that's when Cord completely fell to pieces. Now Ben's gone and I can't even say a word to Cord without his quitting. Coincidence?

[DeltaBluez Tess]

How did you determine your style of your working dogs?

 

It is my Tess which gave me a basis of what I love and dislike. Her willingness to work, her thinking of any the situation required and her uncanny way with stock are her assets. Her weakness, which is not a real weakness anymore, was her shed. Now she can shed in a tiny hole. (Thank Goodness) Now, I can send her do a task and she does it and with authority.

I have seen dogs from Dalziel and Henderson’s lines and love that style. Now I blended those dog in my kennels and seeing the first blend of Dalziel x Tess. I also like Pleat and have his lines in my kennels via Tess.

 

 

Was it a particular lines and why?

 

Right now, I like Pleat, Dalziel and Henderson lines. I Have Nan who is Imp Spot daughter. And of course Tess, who is Prices’ Davy lines. I have a Wisp grandson and co-own a Dalziel/Henderson lines. I also have a son of Tess x Pleat and a granddaughter of Tess x Pleat. They are biddable like Tess but have Pleat’s push.

 

 

Was it your own breeding?

 

Tess is my foundation bitch and I have her lines in my kennel. I bring outside dogs to compliment my kennels. I recently got a bitch from the UK who is a daughter of Aled Owen’s Roy. I am always looking for good dogs to bring into my kennel. I try not to be kennel blind.

 

 

Was it because you saw the parents/siblings worked?

 

Yes, I saw all of the above. In addition, I relied on people that I trusted to help me find the right blead

 

.

Also from your first working dog, how far did you vary from that dog when you got a second dog? And why?

 

Tess has made me the Open handler that I am today. She manages to get points for Nationals even at 10.5 yrs. I would get another Tess since she has carried me on her shoulders all this time and never complained. She has her flaws, as all dogs do, but has overcome them. She has a way of reading my mind when we are doing real work, such as singling out a lame ewe and holding it without me saying much, or holding the flock to me as I worm them and she does it without a command, and finding a reject lamb in a 25 acres pasture with 2 ft of grass and staying with it until I arrived. Honestly, I don’t think I would have gotten as far with out a dog like Tess.

 

Now I like a dog that has more push/power but then I lose the biddability. It’s a tradeoff. Nan is very biddable but needs practical work time. Scott (Wisp grandson) has lots or power and ranch work and has learned to work with me. Each dog I have had something different to bring to the table.

 

I work Tess and Nan together. This way Nan can learn the farm work that Tess does. Tess is going to retire soon and I want Nan to be able to figure out the practical work. Nan watches Tess and so far, has learned quite a bit.

 

If I scold Tess when she thinks it is unjustified, she will glare at me and go really slow. If I give her a wrong flank on the trial field, she will turn and give me a look of “Mom the moron” and then I realize that I am messing up. I call Tess my “Princess” on the field since sometimes she is a “Princess” on the field.