to wear or not to wear, that's the question...

[Kelliwic Border Collies]

I've seen a good few beginners spend a lot of time ambling around pastures with sheep and the dog, working on "natural balance" when they're doing no such thing. The dog is flopping around behind the sheep, and the handler is adjusting to a pushy dog rather than the dog adjusting to the pace of the sheep/handler.

 

Pearse (et al), what would be a good exercise(s) to work on balance and pace? (Should I move this question to its own new topic? It's aligned with Julie's original question, but sort of off the topic now.) For whatever reason, it seems like this (particularly pace) is a constant problem with my dogs and I. I have tried some different methods but somehow, the basic concept just doesn't seem to "stick" for my dogs. Probably operator error, LOL!

 

ETA: Looks like Julie was kind of asking the same question (I think):

 

I think that's us!!! Well, maybe it isn't THAT bad now, but is there ANY way to expedite getting the dog to adjust to my pace faster?

 

ETA again: I see Ask An Expert has a queston about pace; I will be watching that topic too!

[Pearse]

Pearse (et al), what would be a good exercise(s) to work on balance and pace? (Should I move this question to its own new topic? It's aligned with Julie's original question, but sort of off the topic now.) For whatever reason, it seems like this (particularly pace) is a constant problem with my dogs and I. I have tried some different methods but somehow, the basic concept just doesn't seem to "stick" for my dogs. Probably operator error, LOL!

 

I don't think there's any magic formula. Most experienced hands will tell you that a dog with too much "come forward" as a youngster is something that they look for because they can get a handle on that eventually but that you don't ever want to lose it because ultimately you want a dog that can move sheep.

 

What I meant by "no ambling about" is not to accept sloppy work. Getting a dog comfortable with wearing sheep is good. Allowing the dog to push sheep over top of you because he wants to and you are tired of trying to get him to stop is not. If it gets to that point, put the dog up, or do something else.

 

For controlling a dog on the wear or fetch, I'd ask him up and if he gets up and rushes to the sheep without thinking stop him and ask him up again. Keep doing it until he starts to use his head (you'll see him starting to think about it, the work becomes more deliberate, the head goes down, he's more careful about tucking the end sheep in) and then let him have the sheep focussing his concentration with a "time" or "steady" or what ever you use. The important thing is to reward even an attempt at pace with letting the dog have the sheep. You won't get it all at first but over time he'll develop that "feel" for his sheep and that will feel better than the anxiety of busting into them, or the pressure of having you stop him, so he'll use control more often.

 

An experienced handler will get this fairly quickly on a dog but for most of us mere mortals, it's a lengthy process.

 

I think many people are in too much of a rush with their dogs. I know good trainers who can take a one year old dog and get it solid and ready for novice level trials or practical farm work in three months or so. But, they are working two or three times a day sometimes (if even for only five or ten minute/time at first), and they can read the dog and know where and when to apply pressure and when not to. For those of us working a couple of times a week and feeling our way, the process takes longer. Be patient, and enjoy the process. Those small advances in training or stock work can be every bit as rewarding as a good score in a trial so take the time to enjoy them. It may take a year to do what a good trainer can do in three months but you'll learn something along the way and have fun doing it.

\

 

Don't know if that is any help at all but I rarely give training advice because I consider myself a total rookie when it comes to training dogs. I'm still very much a student so don't take this as gospel. It's just my personal observation based on my personal experiences.

 

Hope it helps though.

 

Pearse

[Denise Wall]

Pearse (et al), what would be a good exercise(s) to work on balance and pace?

 

A lot of the problems with pushing too hard or pushing past the handler rather than balancing to the handler and bringing stock at a decent pace could be related to not really understanding the job of the fetch or wear. Sometimes starting at the end point and working back is a good way to improve their picture of what they're supposed to be doing (and maybe yours too). This using the "perfect picture" endpoint is not a new concept but I rarely hear people speak of it anymore so I thought I'd throw it out there.

 

The dog's job in a normal gather is to end with the sheep at your feet, balanced and settled, and then basically stop or lie down and await further instructions. That job, which is more or less naturally bred into them, is over.

 

To help them understand this, as the dog is wearing or finishing the fetch, find a place to stop them on balance so that the sheep are settled in front of you. Then just stand there for a few seconds and talk nicely to the dog since it has completed its job successfully (even though with your help). This is the picture you want to create in their mind for the end of the gather/fetch/wear. The dog on balance, in control, and holding the settled sheep to you at your feet. Sometimes this little bit of mechanical setting up will click in and improve the entire wear, fetch or gather once the dog truly understands the end point of it.

 

In trying to create this "perfect picture" end point, and make the dog lie the down on what you feel is balance, it's now up to you to hold up your end of the partnership and not let the balance go wrong, making the dog uncomfortable and wanting to fight the down. As in, you may have to shift around a little to keep the balance correct and the sheep settled. Or you may need to let the dog move to re-balance. Just don't hold the dog there and let the sheep get off balance because this will not help to create the perfect picture in their mind. Use a fence behind you if you must.

 

It can become quite re-enforcing to a dog to push the sheep past you on one side or the other and then swing around and catch them again. So re-enforcing that they may start bringing them faster and faster in anticipation of the excitement of heading them on the other side once they run past you. In addition, the picture of the end of the fetch/wear in their mind may become one of aiming for one side or the other in order to push the sheep past you. Not your idea of balance, of course; the dog is balancing the sheep toward a different goal than to your feet.

[Pippin's person]

Thanks Denise and Pearse--both great ideas that I can't wait to try (thunderstorms are preventing work today ) I don't have all that much trouble with the fetch normally, but I think that I do a lot more managing (e.g. lying them down) than I'd like to.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

Denise! Thank you so much - I ran right out and tried that and something good was going on in Ted's head - not sure what yet. We've been working on some super mechanical stuff this week so that was the perfect complement - a little something to defuse the tension naturally and still work on the "obedience" things we are emphasizing at the moment.

 

I had Patrick video it, so later on I'll see whether we got what I was hoping to get.

 

Pearse, there was definitely also a point where Ted was illustrating your point as well with stopping the dog, until the dog gets up with his head in the right place.

[Denise Wall]

Robin and Becca, thanks. I hope it helps. It's really a great exercise and one I have to periodically remind myself to do with all my dogs. It can show a lot of things you thought were a given, aren't.

 

Becca, I look forward to the video.

[Kelliwic Border Collies]

Thanks to both of you for the suggestions, they sound good. One more question which is a small but very very important part of the suggested exercises...how to get them on their feet nicely? Both my dogs leap to their feet, though one of them alternates between popping up and lying there stuck. I am not sure how to find the balance (no pun intended) between NOT popping up, but getting up when asked. In other words, how do I turn "getting up too fast" into "getting up nicely," without having them stick and be worried about getting up at all?

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

Here's a demo of what Pearse was describing (at least I'm pretty sure this is what he was getting at). It starts about in the middle of this at 0:40 where I decide I wasn't getting done what I needed to, where we were working, so we had to move the sheep down the field some.

 

http://www.youtube.com/user/irenafarm

 

And this, I think, is what Denise suggested. This was particularly effective for Ted - note the difference in the first gather (his pace) and the second where things are much more relaxed. These are not really dog broke sheep - I had a heck of a time "breaking" them to settle.

 

[Denise Wall]

Good job Becca. Just make sure you keep the sheep on balance between you two, either by moving yourself, or letting him move. I find it easier to do this for the first time with a fence behind me but you did fine letting them settle in the field.

 

Megan,

 

If your dogs are both showing tension when they get up, the first thing I would examine is how I was asking them up. Are you causing this with your voice tone, speed or volume? Try using their name to ask them up, or cluck like when asking a horse to get up (you're an old horse person I think?) or anything else you find helps them associate a calmer attitude with walking on. Do it first up close so you can watch their response.

 

And don't forget to train opposites. As in, if you make them walk in slow for a while, find a time to ask them to walk/trot in fast at least for a short while. Put a command on that too. Sometimes just asking them to walk in fast a few times will help them slow down when you ask for it.

[Nancy Bovee]

Thanks to both of you for the suggestions, they sound good. One more question which is a small but very very important part of the suggested exercises...how to get them on their feet nicely? Both my dogs leap to their feet, though one of them alternates between popping up and lying there stuck. I am not sure how to find the balance (no pun intended) between NOT popping up, but getting up when asked. In other words, how do I turn "getting up too fast" into "getting up nicely," without having them stick and be worried about getting up at all?

 

 

My Earl is a speed demon. One thing that has helped was using the "Stand" command. I taught him a "Stand" as a move from a sit or down and it has proved so helpful in the fetches and moves around pens and chutes since just his standing is enough to move sheep slightly. Then I can ask him to walk up or flank. Some people use "Stand" as a stop, but I haven't gotten that far yet. But he seems to understand that the "Stand" means "easy" and get ready to be careful. Somehow, "WalkUp" means jump right up and let's get moving!" unless he is driving. I wish I coiuld figure this all out in his head.

 

Nancy

[Lenajo]

evaluate your tone - how are you asking them up? If you "jerk" them up verbally, they are only doing what you ask.

 

If you ask in a nice tone, and get a jerk, I would just growl them back down. "Heeeeeeeeyyyyy". When you get hesitation, you let them walk in as a reward.

 

What I wonder in all this wear debate is....is it really different to the dog, this wear and drive thing? After all, the view is the same, the wearing dog often can't see the handler anymore than the driving dog can. All he's sees is sheep butts, glints of eyes as he tucks them in. He should respond to pressure, and not overrun the stock - rating to pressure being what keeps him on the line he started on.

 

Obviously some dogs need more training on that than others, and I certainly don't have all the answers as to why and how on this....

 

I just that used to think the fetch/drive was different, but I've had some demos that made me doubt. For example we think the dog is fetching to us, but if we send the dog from point A (next to us) and move to point B (say...50 yards left or right) while the dog is gone, the dog will bring the sheep to A.

 

thoughts?

[Nancy Bovee]

My dog most definitely knows where I am. He also knows where sheep are - from great distances. He was so funny the first time he really "got" driving - he went for quite a long ways and then turned to me with a look I've seen in his human equivalent "No worries, mom, I've got the keys" . His entire demeanor is different when driving (moving the sheep himself) and fetching (oh, I have to give them to you who doesn't know how to contain them).

 

nancy

 

 

evaluate your tone - how are you asking them up? If you "jerk" them up verbally, they are only doing what you ask.

 

If you ask in a nice tone, and get a jerk, I would just growl them back down. "Heeeeeeeeyyyyy". When you get hesitation, you let them walk in as a reward.

 

What I wonder in all this wear debate is....is it really different to the dog, this wear and drive thing? After all, the view is the same, the wearing dog often can't see the handler anymore than the driving dog can. All he's sees is sheep butts, glints of eyes as he tucks them in. He should respond to pressure, and not overrun the stock - rating to pressure being what keeps him on the line he started on.

 

Obviously some dogs need more training on that than others, and I certainly don't have all the answers as to why and how on this....

 

I just that used to think the fetch/drive was different, but I've had some demos that made me doubt. For example we think the dog is fetching to us, but if we send the dog from point A (next to us) and move to point B (say...50 yards left or right) while the dog is gone, the dog will bring the sheep to A.

 

thoughts?

[Laurae]

His entire demeanor is different when driving (moving the sheep himself) and fetching (oh, I have to give them to you who doesn't know how to contain them).

 

 

[kelpiegirl]

Nancy

This is EXACTLY what I am talking about, thank you.

J

 

My dog most definitely knows where I am. He also knows where sheep are - from great distances. He was so funny the first time he really "got" driving - he went for quite a long ways and then turned to me with a look I've seen in his human equivalent "No worries, mom, I've got the keys" . His entire demeanor is different when driving (moving the sheep himself) and fetching (oh, I have to give them to you who doesn't know how to contain them).

 

nancy

[Mark Billadeau]

What I wonder in all this wear debate is....is it really different to the dog, this wear and drive thing? After all, the view is the same, the wearing dog often can't see the handler anymore than the driving dog can. All he's sees is sheep butts, glints of eyes as he tucks them in.

 

thoughts?

A dog that is wearing/fetching properly does "see" the handler. If this were not so then the dog would not know where balance point is and it would not bring you the sheep. in other words it would never be capable of a silent gather. If all the dog "sees is sheep butts, glints of eyes as he tucks them in" he is too close to see the whole picture.

 

If you move while the dog is fetching or wearing sheep to you does it adjust the path of the sheep to your new location? How would this be possible if it doesn't see you?

 

Mark

[Wendy V]

Hi folks,

 

Interesting discussion. I'll jump in briefly and say that I have been to many Marc Christopher clinics over the years and feel that he has taught me a lot, particularly in the beginning. His structured, patient approach slowed everything down for my novice brian and I was able to learn to get into better body position with the sheep and the dog to effect the change in behavior I was after. Quite different from the running around, yelling, and throwing things at my dog approach, of which many novice handlers are exposed to, which served only to increase my confusion. I must admit to being a very slow learner regarding stock dog training, and a difficult student as well, so what seemed then to be a lot of bashing about in the rouind pen, now appears, in my more experienced mind, to be a poorly executed form of Jack Knox training. My point is, Marc Christopher's slow, structured, and, yes, mechanical methods are very helpful to a beginning hand with an out-of-control dog. The short-comings of his methods is that it is hard to transition out of the arena and keep the same control over the dog, at least for a beginner. I also doubt that his method alone will take you to Open, since he doesn't compete in that venue. Personally, I liked his teachings better 10 years ago than what he has evolved into now. He has a heavily influenced horse training approach now, which doesn't translate as well as it did before, but that could be my short-coming, as I know nothing about horses.

 

Sorry to ramble. Gotta run,

 

Wendy

[Lenajo]

If you move, then the dog should be able to see you because you are no longer in front of the sheep.

 

Most dogs are quite a bit shorter than the sheep. a comparison would be Mark standing about 25 feet behind adult beef cattle (a normal-ish place to be on dog broken cattle) and see if observing how much you can see on on the other side.

 

Most of my gathers here are in tall grass - the dogs can't see me at all. It's not a place to train, but we are certainly "fetching". The dogs gather to where they are sent from, unless I pop up and say "nope, over here".

 

My ponder is the balance point really us beyond very early training...or is it simple where the dog was sent from?

 

If balance only involves the handler - and not simple controlling the sheep on the direction they were started at (those eye glints, buttviews, etc) then it would imply a dog could never be in balance on a drive. Yet dogs do, and some hold lines beautifully - balancing on the direction of travel started by the handler.

 

Hmmmmm

 

 

A dog that is wearing/fetching properly does "see" the handler. If this were not so then the dog would not know where balance point is and it would not bring you the sheep. in other words it would never be capable of a silent gather. If all the dog "sees is sheep butts, glints of eyes as he tucks them in" he is too close to see the whole picture.

 

If you move while the dog is fetching or wearing sheep to you does it adjust the path of the sheep to your new location? How would this be possible if it doesn't see you?

 

Mark

[Debbie Meier]

Hey, I'm going to try this, been reading, trying to figure out the right way to comment based on what I am seeing and working through myself. Wendy made a comment that Marc's methods can make it hard to transition from arena to the open fields. I'm in the middle of the transition right now, what I found was that if I let the fence dicate how far off the stock the dog can go, vs. making sure that the stock dictates how far the dog should be my dog will be right as far as not getting to close, but wrong as far as getting to far out, but the error is not in the method the error was in me not making sure that the dog understood the right distance was based on the stock not the fence. I guess it's not much different then letting a horse rely on the rail to dicated his path, a horse that has been relying on the rail will struggle when you try to move the horse off the rail, he will try to suck back to it vs. staying between the reins, the horse does not truely understand how to travel without the rail there. When we were working our reining horses we would sometimes go out in big open fields working our small and large circles taking the rail away, a horse that was used to leaning on the rail would over compensate and sometimes tighten his circles up hunting something to lean on, being uncomfortable, or unsecure traveling without something to lean on, the horse may also speed up or run uncontrollably because leaning on the rail also controlled his speed. I also noticed that if I rely on the fence to correct my dog or to make sure he executes a command, when I get out into open spaces I have no control over him because I don't have a fence to drive him into. So I think there is certain amount of realizaton as to how much we rely on fences not just as to how much the dog does. I wonder if the people and dogs that have problems with working tight spaces have the same problems as those having problems in big spaces, the dog it not making the adjustment based on the stock but relying on something else to tell him where he should be.

 

On the dog watching the handler during the fetch deal, there are times working around here where my dogs' outrun takes him out of my sight, recently I discovered after I moved away from the location I originally sent him from without him seeing me move resulting in him and the sheep at my previous location, he would made the adjustment if he saw that I had moved while he was fetching, if he could not see me he just took the sheep to where he last knew I was, it was almost as if he marked where I was and understood that the sheep were to be brought there. This happened the other day when I sent him from one side of the house, I walk around the house to see what was going on, no sheep no dog, walked back around and there was Jake and the sheep where I had been, he was looking around with that, where the heck did she go look. This kinda made we wonder if it would be worth not letting him change his fetch line if or when I move, make him hold his line to where I was vs. letting him adjust it. I guess I have created a situation with my dog where he does not rely on me to balance the sheep and I'm trying to make sure that I don't do things that make him think that relying on me is the right thing to do, or that any contact with sheep should result in the sheep at my feet. It also seems that if I let my dog adjust his fetch to often when I move I have be careful because then I will have problems flanking him off balance, I sometimes will set it up to test him, if it does make it harder to flank him off balance then I can correct him for it freeing him up helping to prevent him from balancing the stock on me, fences or obstacles. I was just thinking about not letting him adjust his fetch line when I move at this point would not be much different then having him fetch to me, step out of the way and then have him drive right on past, It is possible that the end result that you are trying to train is the same that I am already seeing the dog doing, not relying on me to balance the stock.

 

 

Deb

[Mark Billadeau]

Dogs are not in balance on the drive.

 

Some dogs are what I would call line dogs, these hold the sheep on the line that they are traveling (sometimes this will occur with a poor lift with the dog taking the sheep on a line that is not the fetch line). This is not due to balance, IMO this comes from eye. Often young dogs that a good gathering dogs (good balance), will struggle to learn how to drive and how to hold a line on the drive.

 

If there is a dogleg fetch are your dogs balancing to the fetch panels?

If a dog lifts the sheep sideways and does not correct the fetch line, is that good balance?

If a dog on a silent drive (no commands) turns the sheep back to the handler, is that poor balance?

 

Mark

[Debbie Meier]

Dogs are NOT in balance on the drive.

 

Some dogs are what I would call line dogs, these hold the sheep on the line that they are traveling. This is not due to balance, IMO this comes from eye. Often young dogs that a good gathering dogs (good balance), will struggle to learn how to drive and how to hold a line on the drive.

 

Mark

 

Hi Mark, How do you define "Balance"?

 

I don't know what others think, but I look at a dog that is on balance as one that has the sheep under control, regardless of where he is taking them or bringing them. A dog that can hold the sheep on a line, IMO, is keeping them balanced in order to keep them on that line. Just for giggles I opened up my "A Way of Life" book, thumbed back to the glossary and there it states the following: Balance - The distance at which a dog needs to be from his sheep to maintain contact with them and control over them without upsetting or scattering them.

 

I guess that's where my deal with getting a dog to balance the stock on a drive line from the beginning if possible, because a dog with a good sense of balance will have a tough time learning to hold an independent drive line if he thinks that they only way he can control them is to the handler, same would be a dog that thinks holding them on a fence is the only way to control them.

 

Just my thoughts.. there is a trainer in our area that teaches people that balance is when then stock is equal distance between the dog and the handler, I guess a person could look at that as a form of balance or that the dog is not appling to much pressure, but once again dependent on the handler and does not help a dog to drive, but does help to stop the dog from pushing to much when your wearing, I think...

 

 

Deb

[Mark Billadeau]

Balance is being in the right spot around the sheep (counter acting pressure) to bring the sheep to the handler.

Some dogs are naturally really good at finding this spot; these dogs often easily learn how to outrun (almost teaching themselves).

 

Mark

[Debbie Meier]

Dogs are not in balance on the drive.

 

Some dogs are what I would call line dogs, these hold the sheep on the line that they are traveling (sometimes this will occur with a poor lift with the dog taking the sheep on a line that is not the fetch line). This is not due to balance, IMO this comes from eye. Often young dogs that a good gathering dogs (good balance), will struggle to learn how to drive and how to hold a line on the drive.

 

If there is a dogleg fetch are your dogs balancing to the fetch panels?

If a dog lifts the sheep sideways and does not correct the fetch line, is that good balance?

If a dog on a silent drive (no commands) turns the sheep back to the handler, is that poor balance?

 

Mark

 

Just sharing my thoughts on your questions...

 

If there is a dogleg fetch are your dogs balancing to the fetch panels?

 

Personally, if there is a dogleg fetch, I would like my dog to know that when he is fetching to me that he makes the adjustment around the dogleg and brings the sheep to me, but I want him to not be balancing the sheep to me or and object but controlling them himself.

 

If a dog lifts the sheep sideways and does not correct the fetch line, is that good balance?

 

If the dog lifts the sheep sideway he sliced, if the expectation was that he was to be doing and outrun lift and fetch. If you wanted the dog to lift sheep sideways he should have been able to take the sheep on the sideways cross drive, if he rolls and ends up fetching the sheep to me, he switched from balancing them on a drive line to balancing them on a line to me, unless the sheep started hunting the handler then, no he's not balancing at all but following them to the handler.

 

If a dog on a silent drive (no commands) turns the sheep back to the handler, is that poor balance?

 

Why did the sheep turn back to the handler, if the dog did it, once again he stopped balancing to the correct line and switched to a fetch, if the sheep did it, yes it's poor balance because he lost control of his sheep failing to keep them undercontrol and on the predefined line.

 

 

Deb

[Mark Billadeau]

Deb,

 

As you can see my use of the term balance is not the same as yours. My use is specific for the ability/instinct related to gathering not generally for the working attitude around stock.

 

In my previous examples, there were issues (2 faults) with the dog that created a situation and then the dog defaulted to its instinct (gather the sheep).

 

With a dogleg fetch the dog should want to stop at the balance point (the place behind the sheep that would lift them directly to you); this will not be correct for a dogleg fetch. With most dogs you will be fighting their instinct (balance) in order to make the dog leg fetch.

 

In the next case the dog did not stop at the balance point; this could occur even if the dog is off far enough to not disturb the sheep (dogs with a lot of eye, dogs going to the heads, dogs not reading the pressure correctly), the default should be to gather the sheep to you (that's the instinct).

 

Young dogs learning to drive (especially ones with a very strong balance instinct) will often turn the sheep back into a gather because that is their instinct. These dogs often need more instruction to keep them on the drive line.

 

Mark

[stockdogranch]

Not sure about the dog having to literally "see" the handler to adjust to balance. With young dogs, I do lots of "walkabouts," making big loopy S turns and the like so that the dog has to reposition often to come back to balance. I don't say much, only an occasional "watch your sheep" (or calves). I will also do this at night, with no moon. I suppose the dog can hear me walking, or if I think the dog may have lost me, I may occasionally jingle the keys in my pocket briefly to give the dog a hint, but then I am quiet again.

 

 

there is a trainer in our area that teaches people that balance is when then stock is equal distance between the dog and the handler,

 

 

As for defining "balance," I definitely do NOT agree that it has anything to do with any predetermined distance between stock, dog, or handler. There's way too much variation in stock and the amount of presence any given dog has. I was always taught that balance had to do with the dog keeping the stock to the handler, so that if I move my position, the dog should adjust accordingly. So, I agree with Mark that a dog is not in "balance" on a drive (and also that some dogs hold a line on a drive much better than others).

 

I guess that's where my deal with getting a dog to balance the stock on a drive line from the beginning if possible, because a dog with a good sense of balance will have a tough time learning to hold an independent drive line if he thinks that they only way he can control them is to the handler, same would be a dog that thinks holding them on a fence is the only way to control them.

 

I'm not sure what exactly you mean by this, or, specifically, what you mean by "balance" in the first usage ("balance...on a drive line"). Then, the second usage with the dog with a "good sense of balance" having a tough time driving, leaves me very confused. Although I will say that sometimes handlers spend too much time with the dog in balance (as I use the term), before ever introducing any off-balance work (by which I mean the dog is walking straight up to the stock, while you are not in front of the stock, but off to one side, even slightly), so that when you do start to introduce driving, it's a very foreign concept for the dog, and it may have a hard time.

 

Not sure this makes any sense, or is even relevant to this thread, as I admit I kinda skimmed it after being gone for 2 weeks,

 

A

[Debbie Meier]

I should not be typing.....as my foot goes so deep into it...

 

My point with mentioning the other trainer in our area is to acknowledge that different people are training different definitions of the same term. I don't know that any are wrong, some just have a broader scope or maybe some are more specific.

 

I think it's just a difference and how you define balance, that's why I asked Mark his definition. I'm looking at balance as any control point not just in the example of balance to keep the sheep to me. An example would be my dog out there holding the stock in one place under control stopping them from going to a given draw, such as the exhaust, I consider off balance work in that situation as anything telling him that he has to get out of that draw area and reposition so that he can drive the sheep someplace else, he really does not want to get out of the place that he knows he can control the sheep with minumum effort, or he may be willing to only drive them away from that point, but he has to learn that he can counter the draw and keep them balanced (under control) to a different direction. So based on my definition of balance I don't think of having my dog drive the sheep away from a draw as off balance work because he can balance on the draw or from behind, asking him to flank allowing for a path to that draw would be off balance work.

 

Gotta run,

 

Deb