I guess I don't fully understand this ABCA vs AKC thing

[Cool Dave]

I understand the desire to maintain the BC as a working breed but what does that have to do with the AKC? Why can't/ won't the ABCA just create a sort of 2 tier registration type thing- first tier is as it is now, basically confirming the pedigree, but having a second 'tier' that confirms that the tier one dog is worthy as breeeding for working purposes? (the dog has basically proven an ability to herd before acquiring tier 2 status). I imagine this has been thought of, but what are the implications and why hasn't it been done?

 

For the record, I had NO plans to breed my Jonah, but I now sort of think it my responsibility to provide him some testing/ training for herding just to find out if he might have some exceptional ability/ potential for it.

[stockdogranch]

Well, I'll take a quick stab at it...

 

1. The AKC promotes breeding for a "breed standard," which means a particular "look." Certain height, ears that do whatever, etc., etc. Traditionally (as in for centuries, across the pond), true working dogs have only been bred if they are proven to work to a very high level (and nobody gave a rat's patoot what they looked like). So, any time you breed for anything OTHER THAN working ability, you are breeding AWAY from that working ability. So, in a nutshell, AKC breeds pretty, but potentially (and increasingly) pretty dumb, work-wise. So anything that you or we (the general you or general we) do to support the AKC in any way supports this system and leads down that path toward no longer having the true border collie--the dog bred to work stock (who, incidentally, is good at a great many other things because of the selective breeding for STOCKWORK (which is an extremely complex set of traits)).

 

2. The ABCA are not the working/breeding police. They are merely a registry devoted to maintaining the integrity of the breed as a working stockdog. If you have an ABCA registered dog, and the breeder sends in the proper paperwork, signed, verifying that the bitch was bred to a particular ABCA stud dog, you can register your pups from that litter. The only time the ABCA has anything more to say on the matter is if you also dual register the dog with AKC (which AKC happily does, as their books are open to any BC that is ABCA registered). If you show that dog in the show ring (conformation), and you put a conformation Championship title on it, the ABCA will then de-register that dog and any of its offspring. The biggest issue, related to your system, is that the ABCA has no way of keeping track of what dogs might be "worthy" or not--dogs who are trialled to a high level (USBCHA trials--the trials that really test a dog's ability here in the US) are not awarded "titles" for their accomplishments. There are also a great number of fine working dogs who never see a trial field--they are worked on a daily basis on the farm or ranch; many of these dogs could be "worthy," but are not widely known. So the ABCA would really have no way of doing the kind of two-tiered system you suggest.

 

A

[Eileen Stein]

If you do get into it, you'll find there's a lot more to herding ability than most people realize. Aptitude tests or instinct tests are pretty useless for predicting the true potential of the dog. I don't know any real working dog person who puts much credence in them. A complex array of traits and talents are necessary for a border collie to become a useful stockdog, and most of them cannot be assessed until the dog has been trained to a pretty high level.

 

The border collie became what it is because it was bred by people whose sole purpose was creating good useful working dogs, because they needed good useful working dogs. The more it comes to be the case that dogs are bred by people who really don't care about this goal, but instead adopt a sort of check-off list (dog shows sustained interest in sheep for five minutes, dog will circle to the left and right, dog can be called off, etc.) of items that supposedly signify breedworthiness, the more the breed as a whole will lose that inherent complex of abilities that makes it so valuable in the management of livestock.

 

What this has to do with the AKC is that the AKC sets and rewards different criteria of excellence than working ability, and therefore encourages the breeding of dogs without regard to working ability. This would obviously be detrimental regardless of whether the ABCA had a two-tiered registry or not.

 

The ABCA has considered a two-tiered system, but does not think it's feasible or would be effective. Aside from the obvious problem and expense of providing knowledgeable, consistent assessors nationwide to evaluate the thousands of dogs for whom people would seek the cachet of tier 2 status, systems like these tend to deteriorate under the inevitable pressure to pass more dogs, pass my dog, pass the assessor's friend's dog, make it easier, etc., from people who don't keep livestock and really don't value the breed's working ability all that much. Also, there are many good breeders who simply wouldn't jump through the hoops to get tier 2 status. They're traditionalists who are not title-oriented -- their only goal is producing good working dogs, they know how to do it and know how to judge the results, and don't feel the need for a registry's seal of approval. If the registry would not permit them to breed (i.e., would not register the offspring of) dogs unless they had been designated tier 2, these people would just register somewhere else or not register at all. This would mean a lot of good dogs would be lost to the registry. All in all, it seems better to keep these dogs in the registry, where their lineage can be recorded and traced, since that is the main purpose of having a registry.

 

People who need high quality working dogs know how hard it is to keep these complex traits balanced in the dogs they produce, and they strive to produce the very best. Sometimes it takes a while for people new to border collies to understand and appreciate how the things they love about the breed are related to the purposeful breeding of the dogs for livestock work. Some will never see it. But I think the more interested somebody is in the dogs, the more likely they are to come to appreciate it over time.

[Tranquilis]

I understand the desire to maintain the BC as a working breed but what does that have to do with the AKC? Why can't/ won't the ABCA just create a sort of 2 tier registration type thing- first tier is as it is now, basically confirming the pedigree, but having a second 'tier' that confirms that the tier one dog is worthy as breeeding for working purposes? (the dog has basically proven an ability to herd before acquiring tier 2 status). I imagine this has been thought of, but what are the implications and why hasn't it been done?

To put it simply:

 

When you establish two differing tiers, you very quickly split one breed into two different breeds. That is the very nature of breeding - People breed to the standard. If one standard is "Comes from BC lineage, working ability not required," you *very* quickly get dogs that cannot work stock. This is EXACTLY what the AKC has done, and is EXACTLY what they are accomplishing. Oh, some of their BCs still have some spark left, but it's rapidly being extinguished. The other standard, of course, is "BCs that can, and do, work stock." That standard produces working BCs. This is what the ABCA has done, and has accomplished.

 

If one accepts that a BC that cannot work in its own right is no longer upholding the breed standard, then there is exactly ZERO reason to breed that dog further - It's failed the standard. So, a two-tier system would very quickly split the ABCA dogs into BCs, and non-BCs. And that is, essentially, the status quo as it already exists between the AKC and the ABCA.

 

Add to that the AKCs constitutional inability to "play nice" when it comes to controling the heritage and destiny of the various breeds, and you've got an advisarial situation. The AKC utterly and completely fails to understand or accept the core of what makes a BC a BC, and therefor most be always be held at arms-length.

[Cool Dave]

Well thank you all for the time and consideration in your responses! I understand much better the situation but it also seems to me the ABCA could do more towards preservation of the breed, though now it all seems a bit unfeasible to me. One reason I don't think they are doing enough for the breed is from the impression I have that even ABCA only breeders can breed for the same reasons that one that also patronizes the AKC. With respect to ABCA, it's basically an 'honor' system then, right? I mean, if I wanted to try and make money, I could just get a female ABCA registered, breed her with Jonah, even though neither would be any good at working, and thus have done harm to the goal of promoting the BC as a working dog.

[Bo Peep]

Well, my simple 2 cents is I saw it happen first hand with Aussies. I'm old.

They started bringing them into the ring and you bred for pretty. You'd take one pretty Aussie, no matter if s/he worked or not and bred it to another pretty Aussie and soon, you had a bunch of Aussie's that didn't know what to do with cattle or sheep. Thus, when wanting a working Aussie, you really had to look for a special place to find them.

 

This has now happened to the border collie. The ABCA really doesn't have much control over "who works well" and who doesn't. They simply don't have the time. When purchasing a border collie that you want to work. Mine isn't working at this moment, but I WANT that option! That is why this board is so important and you want to keep in mind who's trialing, who is doing well, who is breeding or studding out there dogs.

 

I, myself, thought I was pretty good at this border collie stuff. I had a male with excellent breeding that was trialing and a female that was also bred well and trialing and I bred them. The pups were great. I kept one from each litter. Yet, now I know I was a BYB- both of my dogs, even though their parents were excelling in Open, were still in Novice-mostly due to me- I WILL NEVER BREED AGAIN OR OFFER UP A STUD DOG- even if he wins the nationals. He'll be neutered at a year. I did all the eyes and hips and the temperament of my pups were excellent, yet I was told when I had to sell a pup, that when they bred it to another dog it was very destructive. AGAIN. not my breeding- not my fault- but I have to point out that when you consider breeding PLEASE leave it to the experts.

 

The one thing that differs with me, and I'm sure I'll get blasted for this. I love to do things with my dogs. I am very limited to what is going on around my area. I ordered the papers to PAL- used to be ILP my dog Usher- I received these papers mid -Feb. I have the paperwork ready, but I haven't sent it in yet. I feel I'm betraying the breed by taking my dog into an obedience ring and showing off his stuff. I love rally, again, the AKC thing is with us. I was told I could "dual register" this was something I DID NOT want to do. I would rather neuter and contribute my lousy $30. and "play". So, we ALL have a lot to say about the controversy and we have to make up our own minds.

 

I don't feel I'm an "awful" person to want to do things with my dogs. We do NOT have other venues here, I'm sorry to say. I try and keep my opinions to myself, LOL- ok, I stay out of arguments. But for the love of the border collie, we always try and steer people away from buying and/or promoting AKC dogs.

That's my opinion.

Take it with a grain of salt.

Dianne

[bexie]

Most of life is an honor system. Yes, people can misbreed within ABCA. But that's possible within pretty much any breeding association. You have to look at the history of the parents before you buy--not just rely on it having an ABCA registration.

 

The difference is that ABCA doesn't give rewards or set quality on the APPEARANCE of a dog. They only record herding titles. And if you go and show AKC, you are likely to lose the ABCA registration. AKC claims to be the better organization and puts on a show of including herding titles. But the herding people here have no respect for AKC herding events--the general impression is that you can take just about any dog and pass AKC herding events, say a golden retriever or something. Those events don't require instinct, just moving around as commanded.

 

The AKC deliberately undermines the maintenance of a breed as a working breed by encouraging appearance-based judgment (conformation classes) and making "fake" herding titles.

 

If you look into the history of a lot of breeds, you will find that many have been damaged by AKC conformation breeding. Whether they have lost their original abilities, like many retrieving and hunting breeds, or whether they simply vary insanely in appearance based on the fads of AKC judges. When you breed for appearance above all else, you lose the things that make breeds what they are, especially when the quality of appearance is often influenced by fad, popularity, or some silly whim.

 

How many breeds have gotten increased HD rates because pretty dogs were better than healthy and capable dogs? It may be that AKC is trying to change that now with HD tests, but I still believe that many problems of that sort have been caused by the AKC conformation mentality. If it looks pretty, they don't care if it can work properly, be active, or live a long and healthy life.

 

I'd rather have an unregistered BC from working parents (which I have) than have a dog with AKC papers. (or the Danish Kennel Club because it's about the same)

[DTrain]

Cool Dave, let me try to explain the difference on the ground. Regarding your second post, it is basically an honor system but the honor is in producing the best working dogs possible. Any breeder of true working BC's makes money by producing dogs who work a very high levels. I have such a dog from a breeder who is well know world-wide for producing top working dogs. We moved from the west to the east several months ago. I was invited to join a group of herding dog people who were as they said, training their dogs for trials. I was told they got together weekly with a professional trainer and worked their dogs. It turns out that there was not one BC in the group. Their work with their beautiful Aussies amounted to following stock around a pen, they were training their dogs for AKC events. Oddly enough not one of these Aussies of a once working breed could even qualify by AKC standards on the working side. These people were force training their dogs in an attempt to qualify. They asked me to demonstrate what my dog could do so I showed them his work. They of course had no interest in his extensive work skills. I left the group but I did leave with first hand knowledge of what AKC is all about and how they have contributed to the decline of the Aussie in a working environment. There is nothing wrong with what they were doing but this is easily the direction the border collie could take and in some cases is. I am one of those people who are firmly committed to the true working border collie. If my dog ever contributes to breeding it will be because of his outstanding work skills, I will have it no other way.

[juliepoudrier]

Well thank you all for the time and consideration in your responses! I understand much better the situation but it also seems to me the ABCA could do more towards preservation of the breed, though now it all seems a bit unfeasible to me. One reason I don't think they are doing enough for the breed is from the impression I have that even ABCA only breeders can breed for the same reasons that one that also patronizes the AKC. With respect to ABCA, it's basically an 'honor' system then, right? I mean, if I wanted to try and make money, I could just get a female ABCA registered, breed her with Jonah, even though neither would be any good at working, and thus have done harm to the goal of promoting the BC as a working dog.

Yep, you're right, and it's being done all the time. But unless breeders wanted to pay really huge fees to give the ABCA the funds it would need to actually become a testing registry (not necessarily a good thing, per Eileen's example), then all we have to rely on is honor and education. That's why we constantly tell folks to buy working bred dogs, even if they have no thoughts about ever having anything to do with livestock--working bred dogs are what caught people's attention for agility, flyball, etc. Now unfortunately people are breeding their ABCA-registered dogs for sports, for color, for nothing in particular, and there's really no way to stop them. We have to keep trying to educate folks about how misguided breeding practices will be what ruins the breed. Unfortunately, that sort of breeding within our own ranks (ABCA) is probably more detrimental than anything AKC breeders can do to the breed (since that split has pretty much already occurred).

 

J.

[Tranquilis]

With respect to ABCA, it's basically an 'honor' system then, right? I mean, if I wanted to try and make money, I could just get a female ABCA registered, breed her with Jonah, even though neither would be any good at working, and thus have done harm to the goal of promoting the BC as a working dog.

Correct.

The same is true within the AKC, of course, as well - This is how puppy mills get away with producing scads of 'papered' wrecks. The difference lies in the recognition mechanism. If you want a top-recognized (and therefore valuable) AKC dog, it has to be 'pretty.' Period. OTOH, if you want a top-recognized ABCA BC, you need to prove working ability. Even if the dogs themselves are ugly as hell, top working-line BCs go for good money. And really, good function has a beauty all it's own - What might scare a 'barbie' BC fancier looks right to a trial competitor.

 

There will *always* be those looking to make a quick buck - that's human nature. But, so long as there are measurable top-level standards, there will *always* be people looking to hit, or exceed, that mark - That is *also* human nauture. In the end, the motivation and results tend towards whichever standard the registry upholds - working ability, or looks.

[Pearse]

With respect to ABCA, it's basically an 'honor' system then, right? I mean, if I wanted to try and make money, I could just get a female ABCA registered, breed her with Jonah, even though neither would be any good at working, and thus have done harm to the goal of promoting the BC as a working dog.

 

 

You could and many do.

 

However, if I was looking for a pup to work stock with, while I might look at the pedigree you got from the ABCA (or AKC) to see which dogs were in the lineage, I'm more likely to inquire (or ask to see a demonstration of) the working ability of the parents. If your dog can't work stock, I'm not likely to buy a pup from you.

 

Most people who want real working dogs go to get them from people they know have good working dogs or on the recommendation of someone they trust to know good working dogs. There aren't many people who can truly look at a pedigree of two dogs and go "yep, that would be a good cross". More often, they look at a good dog or bitch and think of a mate based on complementary traits or style.

 

People mistake registries as "guardians of the breed" and subsequently put too much stock in having a registered purebred dog. A registration proves absolutely nothing other than the fact that you know who the dogs' parents, grandparents, great-grandparents, and great-great-grandparents are. It will not tell you whether the dog is any kind of a stockdog or a basket-case biscuit eater.

 

The reason working stockdog people dislike the AKC has nothing to do with it being a registry. It has to do with the fact that the AKC promotes the breeding of stockdogs based on an entirely arbitrary set of physical characteristics that has absolutely nothing to do with the dogs' ability to work and then perpetuates the myth that "if it looks like a stockdog it works like a stockdog".

 

The ABCA promotes the idea of breeding to a working standard, and supports that goal through its educational efforts and by supporting the USBCHA. On the registry side, it takes a more neutral stance registering any purebred Border Collie that does not have an AKC conformation title, plus offering a "registration on merit" program for dogs whose lineage is unknown but who work like a Border Collie and therefore are deserving of being called a Border Collie.

[Cool Dave]

Well my gosh, after dwelling on things I think I have it have it down pretty well! Thank you all! Although, and I don't the actual history, but it seems to me to not be the AKC at any fault here, it's those that had (continually?) petitioned the AKC for bc recognition and those (some/all) that participate in AKC conformance events. You know, before I got Jonah I went to the ABCA website and did some reading, I said what? If an ABCA bc attains AKC ch status his ABCA registry is revoked? Well now I understand the 'reasoning' behind that but also believe it should go further: Basically ANY ABCA dog that is only used for conformance competition in the AKC will have it's ABCA registration revoked.

 

Regarding breeding Jonah, not to worry, I have NO desire to breed him. In mentioning breeding him, I had only considered I would stud him out ONLY in the event (Hollywood dream here) Jonah basically showed he was this 'herder au natural extraordinaire'. My intent at this moment is to get Sassy and Jonah into herding as a monthly or bi-monthly activity in the event they are interested and take well to it.

[Tranquilis]

...it seems to me to not be the AKC at any fault here, it's those that had (continually?) petitioned the AKC for bc recognition and those (some/all) that participate in AKC conformance events.

Yeah, you've pretty much got it.

 

You can't really blame the coyotes for eating your stock - that's what coyotes do. So, you defend your stock, and try to hold the coyote at arms length.

 

Likewise, the AKC did what the AKC does - They are, after all, a business, and have to make money. The chance to expand into BC turf was just another opportunity, which they seized.

 

OTOH, I can, and do, fault the WAY they do that when they engulf existing breed clubs - they've done so in underhanded and decietful ways in the past, but their core motivation is plain for all to see.

[Eileen Stein]

I don't the actual history, but it seems to me to not be the AKC at any fault here, it's those that had (continually?) petitioned the AKC for bc recognition

 

You mean all two of them? Only a small handful of border collie owners, literally, petitioned for recognition. AKC actively recruited people to petition, and threatened ILP obedience people that they would not be allowed to show in obedience any more unless they agreed to full recognition. That pressure was effective enough that a number of top obedience people, who had signed public petitions urging the AKC NOT to recognize the border collie, then turned around and went along with recognition, because they put their showing privileges ahead of the welfare of the breed. Don't know whether you've read this or not -- it was written ten years or so ago, and probably needs to be updated, but it's a good account of how recognition came about. For a more detailed account, look for Donald McCaig's book The Dog Wars, available from Outrun Press.

 

and those (some/all) that participate in AKC conformance events.

 

I agree that those people deserve blame, but it seems to me that the entity that solicits, facilitates and rewards a bad act is at least as blameworthy as those who perform it, and would never have performed it otherwise.

 

You know, before I got Jonah I went to the ABCA website and did some reading, I said what? If an ABCA bc attains AKC ch status his ABCA registry is revoked? Well now I understand the 'reasoning' behind that but also believe it should go further: Basically ANY ABCA dog that is only used for conformance competition in the AKC will have it's ABCA registration revoked.

 

It would be virtually impossible for the ABCA to identify dogs that are merely shown in AKC conformation, whereas they CAN identify the dogs who become champions, because those titles are published.

 

Regarding breeding Jonah, not to worry, I have NO desire to breed him. In mentioning breeding him, I had only considered I would stud him out ONLY in the event (Hollywood dream here) Jonah basically showed he was this 'herder au natural extraordinaire'. My intent at this moment is to get Sassy and Jonah into herding as a monthly or bi-monthly activity in the event they are interested and take well to it.

 

I think this is a very common dream of someone who has gotten a border collie that they love. Nothing wrong with that. The only thing wrong would be breeding without developing and training your dog (and yourself) to the point where you could determine whether your dog actually was a herder extraordinaire, because you just felt sure he would be. And it doesn't sound like you're going to do that.

[Cool Dave]

I think this is a very common dream of someone who has gotten a border collie that they love. Nothing wrong with that. The only thing wrong would be breeding without developing and training your dog (and yourself) to the point where you could determine whether your dog actually was a herder extraordinaire, because you just felt sure he would be. And it doesn't sound like you're going to do that.

 

 

Well it's not any dream that I have, it's merely a 'what if' and I went and had him fixed before finding out- exceptional genes that someone in the herding community could have used are now gone. The only reason this even came across my mind is from reading part of the ABCA mission statement.

 

You're right, I'm not going to do that, and I'm also not going to be the one to make the decision. It's going to be who ever I take him to for training. By extraordinaire, I mean within a few lessons the trainer is basically overwhelmed to the point they believe he should be bred. Yes, EXTREMELY doubtful, and I don't care one way or the other. As far as I'm concerend, he IS just another bc with nothing special other than being MY bc!

 

Now Sassy on the other hand! (I had her spayed at 1 year) ...

[Laurae]

By extraordinaire, I mean within a few lessons the trainer is basically overwhelmed to the point they believe he should be bred.

 

I don't think this ever really happens, Dave...

[DTrain]

I will leave breeding to the very top breeders in the world ( who breed herding dogs ) and rely on the fact they know what they are doing and they have a passion and the knowledge to bring the breed further along to be even better. I have a young dog who was bred from some of the best stock available today. I have his father. I made up my mind to have him fixed. As it turns out he is coming along fine with his herding training but he is showing some traits that are not good. It is not always a given that all the dogs in a great line will be great dogs. I see other BC's who have been bred down and I am afraid this is happening more frequently. I see ads in papers in rural communities for BC pups, I see them at flea markets etc. I have been asked to breed the young dogs father numerous times by people who just merely want to produce BC's. These people assume that his traits will be passed along and they will have perfect dogs. I of course refuse. I have a fear that the BC will be bred in the same direction as the Aussie. I firmly support ABCA's stand. If you did consider breeding your dog because he turns out to be an extraordinary worked consider his lines and his history, consult with a top breeder and consider the direction you are taking his line in.

[Daviid]

You mean all two of them? Only a small handful of border collie owners, literally, petitioned for recognition. AKC actively recruited people to petition, and threatened ILP obedience people that they would not be allowed to show in obedience any more unless they agreed to full recognition. That pressure was effective enough that a number of top obedience people, who had signed public petitions urging the AKC NOT to recognize the border collie, then turned around and went along with recognition, because they put their showing privileges ahead of the welfare of the breed.

 

My wife was an active participant in obedience trials back then, I was dragged along. ( in the late 70's till 95) *She has 2 OTCH & several UD's & TD* border collies - not to brag, but to show she was out there.

 

I saw it much different, the obedience border collie people were strongly against any kind of full recognition, at the expense of not ever being able to participate in any performance events. I knew alot of the border community, they sent petitions, gave money to lawyers to fight the AKC, relentlessly handed out flyer's to AKC obedience board members, judges, AKC reps., letters, full page adds. They did not "sell out" the breed, but fought to keep them out of the AKC, even though they knew they would no longer be able to enjoy the sport they loved. They did put the breed they loved first.

 

I spoke to an AKC board member the day after they were fully recognized, ( he was there that day) their were only a handful of people wanting full recognition. There was no discussion at the board meeting about border collies, only the words "They're In ".

 

David

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

Daviid, I suspect Eileen's point was that the few people that wanted or rather went along with the AKC's plans, were from the obedience community.

 

xceptional genes that someone in the herding community could have used are now gone.

 

This is a totally understandable reaction to the idea of neutering/spaying one's dog. There's a finality to it that our sense of the dog's short life, cries out against. What if this is a once in a lifetime dog - and I'm preventing him or her from passing on those amazing and unique genes?

 

But, the fact is, that although every dog is truly unique (particularly among working bred Border Collies), each working bred Border Collie shares a wonderful heritage of consistent temperament and personality along a continuum. Stay in the breed long enough, get involved in the working world, and you'll start seeing patterns that will make you realize that although your dog may be wonderful, he is not in any way irreplaceable. If we, God forbid, ended up without breeding access to every National Champion and Supreme Champion for the next ten years, the Border Collie breed would still look very much the same, and possess the same potential.

 

That's because of a principle that AKC people find it very hard to wrap their heads around. No one dog makes the breed. We aren't taking any particular dog as an "ideal" - but rather breeding dogs that are personally useful to us, in addition to being capable of competence in Open trials.

 

Breeding for function recombines the genetics over and over, so that the genes to make your dog again are out there somewhere, and will emerge again. You'll hear the talk at a trial, when the young ones come out. "The way he takes those flanks reminds me of X." "That's a Henderson's Sweep line dog if I ever saw one."

 

What the AKC does is the exact opposite of what working breeders need - so there needs to be as much distance as possible between the two gene pools. The AKC is currently attempting to increase their share - and the more share they get, the fewer will be available to us, no matter how the dogs are bred.

 

I saw a really nice dog at a clinic a couple of months ago. He's half bred to British conformation/performance lines, half ISDS imported, then AKC/ABCA dual registered. This dog of course could only be AKC registered. He had enough talent (he was about at the pronovice level and could easily step up to Ranch/Western PN within a few lessons), that the clinician had lots of very nice things to say about him. And he really was a super dog. Clean flanks, good feel for stock, a nice level head but plenty of oomph for the big field, none of the physical and mental limitations you usually see with conformation dogs.

 

Is it the ABCA's fault that this dog is not available to us? Hardly. Will the breed suffer for lack of this dog? I doubt it. I know the lines behind the working side and the dog favors those lines very strongly. I've seen his sire (the BKC dog) work and there's no similarity at all.

[Journey]

Daviid, I suspect Eileen's point was that the few people that wanted or rather went along with the AKC's plans, were from the obedience community.

 

Um, no actually it was a few conformation people, 3 to be exact (one of the major ones now lives in Lenajo's back yard ), that had either imported dogs from Australia or who returned to the states from the UK that petitioned the AKC for recognition. However, the AKC broke all their own rules when sucking the Border Collie into their vacuum.

[Eileen Stein]

I saw it much different, the obedience border collie people were strongly against any kind of full recognition, at the expense of not ever being able to participate in any performance events. I knew alot of the border community, they sent petitions, gave money to lawyers to fight the AKC, relentlessly handed out flyer's to AKC obedience board members, judges, AKC reps., letters, full page adds. They did not "sell out" the breed, but fought to keep them out of the AKC, even though they knew they would no longer be able to enjoy the sport they loved. They did put the breed they loved first.

 

Absolutely, there were many such people, and I admire them greatly. They DID put the interests of the breed above their own. Many of those people still will not register or show with the AKC and never will, even though it means giving up something they were good at and greatly enjoyed. Some of them are on the Board of the USBCC, which sponsors this site. My hat is off to them.

 

What I meant to say was this: There were no more than a handful of border collie owners who sought AKC recognition originally. The obedience community was solidly opposed. To divide and conquer, the AKC threatened that they would no longer permit border collies to be shown in obedience on ILPs -- either the breed would have to be fully recognized and judged in conformation or they would be totally excluded. At that point, and because of that pressure, several prestigious obedience competitors (still a minority of the obedience community, certainly, but "names" who could give rise to a claim of legitimacy) defected and joined the BCSA, even though they had previously signed published letters opposing AKC recognition. The reason they gave? "We have no choice now. The AKC has left us no choice." Of course they did have a choice, but to some people's way of thinking there is no life possible outside of the AKC.

[Cool Dave]

The AKC is currently attempting to increase their share - and the more share they get, the fewer will be available to us, no matter how the dogs are bred.

 

 

Maybe I don't fully understand what you are trying to say, and maybe the breed won't suffer, but apparentlly by your own statement it appears the ones that NEED the breed that will suffer? With that being said, might it not be beneficial that the ABCA reinstate registration for such dogs as you mention (one that demonstrates high ability and promise)? Seems obvious to me that any purebred BC, regardless of registry, regardless of the political views of owners and breeders, regardless of the choices made by such owners and breeders, if that bc happens to also show the traits that the ABCA and it's members desire (the ability to work), then that bc should be recognized as a legitimate ABCA registered dog, acceptable for breeding purposes?

 

HYPOTHETICAL situation:

 

Take me for instance, getting into herding as a hobby. I buy Jonah and am given information to register him with AKC if I desire. I've never been here, knowing nothing of the ABCA/ AKC conflict, and go online and register Jonah with the AKC. A few years pass by, the hobby has turned into my 2nd career, and Jonah is excelling beyond what anyone has ever seen before (ok, he's just doing a damn good job!).

 

So as I'm understanding, since Jonah is dual registered, he's actually not because once I registered with AKC he's no longer recognized by the ABCA?

 

I don't want to tire people out on this matter (if they aren't already) and I am perfectly satisfied with the understanding you all have so graciously provided, but I'd like to ask one more question assuming teh answer was no (to no longer recognized by ABCA):

 

Do you think that is right?

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

Dual registration doesn't cut him out of the ABCA. It's finishing a conformation title that does it.

 

You'd have to change your hypothetical situation to this: Jonah is a top working dog, drawing many eyes amongst those for whom this is not their first barbecue.

 

You also put him out in the breed ring, and he jumps through all the hoops necessary to get his breed championship.

 

Now Jonah is no longer available to those of us who don't want to go to AKC, because Jonah's ABCA registration will be revoked.

 

I would propose that if the first is true, a more likely scenario will be that poor Jonah will pick away at trying to achieve that championship for many years, before you give up in disgust. Before that, I hope. The reason is that the American conformation Border Collie (Australiasian line or show/sport hybrid lines) has already evolved to the point that there is a "type" that judges look for and reward consistently, regardless of the standard. And that type excludes most working line dogs.

 

Your high performance dog will probably have a loose back end and flexible back, for ease of turning. A deep chest with slightly turned out toes often lends agility and stamina. A 90 degree angulation on the knee allows for double extended running and leaping in and out of steep gullies or meeting a stubborn ewe in midair to turn her.

 

The coat should be moderate and somewhat coarse, to smooth, particularly in an area with foxtails (I found one on Gus the other day! Migrated on some hay shipped in, I imagine).

 

Earset, color, head shape, foot shape, tail set, markings, eye color - none of these matter. In fact, none of the above features actually matter - they are just more likely to describe your winning trial/fulltime working dog.

 

You'll note that none of this reflects the typical AKC conformation dog "ideal."

 

That's not to say that Jonah would NEVER win, but that win would be won dearly over many entries, and the achievement would have to be repeated so much - well, and meanwhile when would he train for his trial career?

 

The temptation then becomes - next time around, not so much with the herding stuff, and get a "real" conformation dog. And maybe I can breed my supercool herding dog to her, and get something I can show and work, too.

 

But her working abilities are, well, abyssmal. Their puppies, some are okay, one or two show Jonah's potential, and the rest take after mom. But boy are they pretty! YOu get lots of accomplishments on your "achievement" and the puppies all get their titles quickly - and they get herding instinct tests and even titles too!

 

Can you see the temptation there? You can big a little fish in a big pond, or a big fish in a little pond.

 

On the other side, the big problem with trying to train a show dog to the Open level is simply time and resources. 100% of such people, quit before their dogs reach the top, and instead settle for saying "He could have if I had more time" or "Such and Such a clinician said he had terrific potential."

[CCecil]

If you want to see one example of a breed that the AKC has absolutely ruined, take a look at the German Shepherd Dog. The next time an AKC-sponsored dog show is on television look at the gait and lack of power the current US GSDs have in their back hips and compare that to old movies/TV shows from the 1950s with GSDs. Totally different dog. Additionally, if you ever take an AKC GSD into a field of stock, I guarantee you they will have absolutely no idea what to do--the natural instinct has been breed out by the AKC. Remember, GSDs are herding dogs.

 

I've had 2 AKC GSDs in the past, both of which had numerous health issues related to structural deficiencies. My current GSD is imported from Belgium. She has tremendous power, drive, and has the natural herding instincts intact.

 

Likewise, my last Border Collie (Jersi) was ABCA and my current one (Jinx) as well. Jersi was lower-drive but had very strong eye. Jinx is high-drive and power, with moderate eye. When the breeder told me about his dogs, based on instinct, power and drive, he mentioned offhand that the pups were black/white. My response was "I don't care what they look like." I think this is the type of mindset you need to preserve the breed and the purpose.

 

Basically, the AKC runs beauty pageants. Dogs are supposed to be bred to purpose first, not appearance.

[Debbie Meier]

You know it's kinda interesting to see where things are going, one person I know that raises AKC border collies actually thought it was funny when she recieved notice that her dog was getting his ABCA papers revolked after he earned his confirmation title, she also sends people looking for working dogs to other breeders admitting that her dogs are show dogs not working dogs, although she is still trying to get his herding titles. So far, all but one AKC registered border collie I have seen, granted not that many, a couple/few dozen, have shown little ability to control or feel stock, they can chase just fine.

 

IMO, if a fluke of nature came out of these show lines that showed great working ability I would not want it in my program, to big of chance that he/she would throw what he came from (the show dogs he is out of) rather then what he is.

 

Deb