How do you train?

[Bo Peep]

I am not really a clicker fan- I'm old. I'm old school. Bailey HATES the clicker, or maybe loves it, don't know. But she jumps and this is NOT good. A treat is her reward or maybe a "good girl". In the "olden days" before BC's were even allowed in ACK I put my dogs in ILP and also WTH is the other one? and put obedience titles on them. Even Aussies were in the misc. class- sorry, showing my age here. LOL.

Now obedience and positioning isn't that important. A sit when I stop, even when it's sloppy is ok with me. I just want a nicely well trained dog. A recall is most important for their safety. I DO use on certain dogs, depending on their temperament, a choke, flat, or prong. Usher requires a prong. He has been my greatest challenge. I don't know if it's because he's male, or because he is very prey driven or because I'm an idiot.

My greatest rewards have been with females. I guess I am more in tune to them or we are at a bitchiness equality.

I think I might have a gift for training service dogs. I did well with Bailey- it saddens me to see her leave, yet when I talk to my friend, I feel great about it. Usher has done well by me- took awhile.

Just wanted to get all your intake on how you train. I've had some BC's that got WAY too excited with praise or goodies. High voices would make them go crazy. So, share your techniques with me.

[RaisingRiver]

I train with treats and a yes. I'm too lazy to get out a clicker (though I have several). I eventually fade the treats and only good dogs and yeses. I also use yes as that's what I want. A monotone No means that's not the behavior I'm looking for while Ah-Ah means the typical 'No, bad dog, don't do that'.

 

I train for manners and safety, all the basics. I don't train for leash walking since I find it tedious and my dogs aren't on leash very often. In fact, probably because of that, I specifically train for off leash behaviors. People always ask if I'm a dog trainer (because of my dogs' nice manners and calm demeanor), and I guess I could be if I liked ugly dogs and obnoxious people who refused to be trained themselves.

 

I'm not opposed to reprimanding my dogs w/ vocals and physical towering. But I generally try not to let them get into trouble in the first place.

 

I would say that 'set them up for success' is my motto - and I try to stick to it.

[Bo Peep]

Your training methods are quite like mine. I DO train for leash walking, living in a development I have to have a leash. Though it is usually at my side- no pulling or anything- just attached. When we walk to the park 2 doors down I don't use a leash but a simple "here" command as they are soooo excited to get to the park.

If they lunge ahead of me on leash I just raise my leg to let them give me "my space" and that settles that problem. No correction- just a simple "give me my space" and they respect it. I'm easy. LOL. Thanks for your response.

[JaderBug]

Training is a new thing for me- I've had several BCs in the past, but they've never been anything more than buddies and farm dogs (they weren't working dogs), so they never really learned much outside of sit, don't jump up, and get out of my space, never any leash training either. Despite minimal training, they have always been very well mannered and well behaved dogs. We've never needed anything more than that. I never knew there were so many dog training resources before either (sounds silly, I know, but when you're in middle school, it's not something that dawns on you) and it never really crossed my dad's mind either.

 

Before I got Jade, I was online and reading lots of different books about different training tactics. I bought several books, a DVD, looked at many internet resources, and got Jade into a local puppy class. Jade is extremely food-motivated, she will do anything for a dog biscuit, rawhide, piece of meat, ice cube, anything, so I tend to train with treats, but I am trying to get away from it. I'm still working towards a solid recall with her, she does really well when she has a treat to come to, but otherwise not so much. I mostly use a lot of positive reinforcement, and try to be as patient with her as possible. Also still struggling with heel- she does well when there's a treat there, but as soon as its in her mouth, it's like “Ooo what else can I investigate????”

 

One thing I've been struggling with is trying to convince the boyfriend that there are many other training methods than his. He grew up with German Shepherds, and I know nothing about training a GSD (I don't know if it's any different) but he seems to believe that the only way to train a dog is to be intimidating with a heavy hand and a choke chain and no food rewards- he's very stubborn about it. His dogs at home are well trained and well behaved, but I don’t think it works for Jade (or any Border Collie!) I've used a choke on Jade, but I'm getting away from it because I don't like how she acts when she's on it- she gets very timid and almost afraid. She's much better off the choke.

[Ms.DaisyDuke]

I use a clicker most of the time, especially for things that Daisy doens't seem to get right away. If I am having difficulties (like with our shake a paw fiasco) I break out the clicker. I guess mostly for silly pet tricks. Obedience, like leash walking and general manners, no clicker and no treats because she will trick me for a treat, just verbal praise and a "bah" for no, she seems to respond to my body language and tone of voice better with those things. I use a flat collar on her because she is EXTREMELY sensitive to corrections. I guess it depends on what she is learning, what method I will use and if I pick the wrong method, I usually know within one session and can start over with the other method.

[Tranquilis]

Not that I can call my self a trainer, but when I work with dogs, I usually use praise and physical affection - A quick ear scritch or chin rub - along with treats. But much heavier on the praise and affection than anything else. In walking with a dog, if it starts to pull, I *stop* until it returns to my side, then praise and label the behavior ("Good close!" or "Good Heel!"), and start moving again. I don't generally need, or use, leash pops, but then I don't do a lot of leash work anyway - Mostly just moving dogs back and forth at the Farm.

 

Likewise, I haven't had need to do much obedience work, either - I'm mostly reenforcing what others have already done. In cases where I need to stop a behavior immediately, I use a loud, sharp, dominant voice to get attention, then give direction in a normal voice once they're listening to me. Sometimes I have to 'loom,' but rarely. I'm big enough that that's not usually needed.

[RaisingRiver]

Not that I can call my self a trainer, but when I work with dogs, I usually use praise and physical affection - A quick ear scritch or chin rub - along with treats. But much heavier on the praise and affection than anything else.

 

I don't know if it's a BC thing or not, but River doesn't like me to praise her when she's training or actually doing a task (agility/frisbee/etc). If I try to pet her or ruff her fur she backs away with an incredulous look. Even if we are working a sit/down/stay. However, once I give the 'all done' I can pet her anyway I want to.

[Tranquilis]

I don't know if it's a BC thing or not, but River doesn't like me to praise her when she's training or actually doing a task (agility/frisbee/etc).

*shrug*

Different dogs, different tools.

 

I suppose that's the core of it anyway - Use what works best with your dog - but don't expect the next dog to respond the same exact way.

[dogsofmenace]

I use positive reinforcement and negative punishment to train, but very very very rarely positive punishment. I love the clicker and positive reinforcement training, especially with BC's since they can be sensitive. I shape (with the clicker) just about any behavior I want. To me its really fun to see that BC brain really thinking about what to do and being put into good use. Seeing the moment a behavior finally clicks in their brain is so rewarding. The best thing about it is that the dog truly learns to want to work for you and please you because they enjoy it, not because you make them do it. An operant dog is one that really loves experimenting to find out what makes you happy. Its so funny to give them and object and see all the crazy things they try and do with it to earn that click!

 

The one thing you really have to have when clicker training is patience. Sure, a lot of things you can teach really quickly using corrections or forcing them into it. Sometimes when a clicker session is going painfully slow I'm tempted. But I don't want a dog that waits to be told what to do; I want a dog that is constantly trying to figure out what I want.

[Root Beer]

I don't know if it's a BC thing or not, but River doesn't like me to praise her when she's training or actually doing a task (agility/frisbee/etc). If I try to pet her or ruff her fur she backs away with an incredulous look. Even if we are working a sit/down/stay.

 

Speedy and Dean are like that, too. Dean is a very affectionate dog who loves to be petted and loved, but not when he is in the middle of something!

[dogsofmenace]

I don't know if it's a BC thing or not, but River doesn't like me to praise her when she's training or actually doing a task (agility/frisbee/etc). If I try to pet her or ruff her fur she backs away with an incredulous look. Even if we are working a sit/down/stay. However, once I give the 'all done' I can pet her anyway I want to.

 

She's saying, hey mom, I'm working here! Stop embarrassing me!

[ziggzmom]

I am not really a clicker fan- I'm old. I'm old school. Bailey HATES the clicker, or maybe loves it, don't know. But she jumps and this is NOT good. A treat is her reward or maybe a "good girl". In the "olden days" before BC's were even allowed in ACK I put my dogs in ILP and also WTH is the other one? and put obedience titles on them. Even Aussies were in the misc. class- sorry, showing my age here. LOL.

Now obedience and positioning isn't that important. A sit when I stop, even when it's sloppy is ok with me. I just want a nicely well trained dog. A recall is most important for their safety. I DO use on certain dogs, depending on their temperament, a choke, flat, or prong. Usher requires a prong. He has been my greatest challenge. I don't know if it's because he's male, or because he is very prey driven or because I'm an idiot.

My greatest rewards have been with females. I guess I am more in tune to them or we are at a bitchiness equality.

I think I might have a gift for training service dogs. I did well with Bailey- it saddens me to see her leave, yet when I talk to my friend, I feel great about it. Usher has done well by me- took awhile.

Just wanted to get all your intake on how you train. I've had some BC's that got WAY too excited with praise or goodies. High voices would make them go crazy. So, share your techniques with me.

 

 

 

This is a great topic! I love to learn about different training methods.....I guess I'm old too-LOL! I started out using the collar correction and no cookies type of training. My methods have changed over the years, and continue to change. I compete in obedience and want my dogs to be precise, but not at the expense of their attitude. My training sessions are really fast paced and short. Lots of hands on, lots of playing and using play to teach control, making things black and white for the dog. It's really fun and challanging to try to get that balance=)

 

What a wonderful gift to your friend! I'm sure Bailey will be a great helper and friend for her....

 

Happy Training~

 

Janet

[Root Beer]

I'm not really jumping in here to "debate". This is my personal training style which I use with my own dogs and with those who sign up for my classes to learn how to train their dogs.

 

I train almost exclusively with positive reinforcement training. Very occasionally - particularly with a new dog who simply needs to learn some home manners - I use negative punishment (restricting the dog's access to what he or she wants to decrease the probability of an unwanted behavior occurring again). I use that very sparingly, and I never use negative punishment in training sports and activities like Agility, Freestyle, Rally, etc.

 

I do train mostly with food, although with Dean I incorporate a lot of toy rewards because he is highly toy motivated and keeps his wits about him enough to learn with toys in the mix, and for me a clicker is indispensible. I train pretty much every new behavior using a clicker, but I am not a shaping-only clicker trainer. I utilize luring, targeting, capturing, molding (where appropriate), and shaping. When I train a new behavior, I don't name it until the dog can carry it out with minimal fluency.

 

When training a new behavior, the click/treat tells the dog that he is correct or on the right track. I don't use a no reward marker or corrections of any kind. If the dog is not offering what I want, I simply don't click/treat and re-cue the behavior or try another training strategy. I've found that the dogs understand this framework and often give me non-verbal feedback when they need more information.

 

I approach behavior modification and training obedience, sports, tricks a bit differently, although I do use the clicker for both.

 

With behavior modification, I use the clicker to condition a new emotional response to triggers. I have found the clicker to be a very powerful communication tool with my dogs when it comes to fear and over-excitement. I taught Dean to lie quietly and watch other dogs do Agility in his right mind - he originally went crazy when other dogs were in motion - using just a clicker, treats, and a mat. No punishment at all. I am very much into behavior modification without use of punishment. I find it an absolutely fascinating process and I love the results.

 

For obedience, sports, tricks, I am not using the clicker to influence my dog's state of mind so much as I am teaching correct responses to cues. I use a very straightforward approach. For shaping I set up a situation and click/treat as the dog gets closer to offering what I'm looking for, when the dog gets the correct behavior - c/t, c/t, c/t, put it on hand cue, name it, move to variable reinforcement, fade clicker, cue behavior in sequences with other behaviors, and then practice periodically for fluency.

 

For luring, it's similar - lure behavior, c/t, lure, c/t, when dog is ready move to lure with no food, c/t, lure with no food, c/t, when dog is ready fade lure into hand signal, c/t, hand signal, c/t, when hand signal is minimal and behavior is fluent, add verbal cue, move to variable reinforcement, fade clicker, cue behavior in sequences with other behaviors, and then practice periodically for fluency.

 

Targeting, capturing, and molding would all be similar processes.

 

I don't use a leash to train anything. I have a leash on a dog for safety and it serves as a method of keeping the dog safe, but when I train behaviors, I am completely hands-off. When I train heeling, the leash is slack. One of the things that I learned along the way in Rally is that "the leash is just a decoration". Now, when I am on a walk with my dog and there are cars on the road, the leash is much more than a decoration - it is a safety device. But when teaching Rally, Freestyle, Agility, I consider the leash a decoration. I do away with it as quickly as possible.

 

Lest anyone get the impression that training in this fashion means never telling the dog "no" or allowing whatever the dogs want at all times, I want to be clear that this is not the case. I don't use reprimands, corrections, or punishment to deal with behavioral issues nor to train my dog to respond correctly to cues. In day to day life, my dogs have rules and boundaries to live within and they are not allowed to do whatever they want at all times. They are animals and they aren't perfectly behaved at all times, but they aren't making the household decisions, either! That role belongs to the humans and they understand that.

[Bo Peep]

These are great and interesting answers. I wanted to start Bailey out on a flat collar, that simply wasn't an option for me. When I rescued her from the pound, she was 66 pounds, due to her low thyroid and that is 1/2 my weight. She had never been on a leash before and her pulling me down the street with my bad balance just wasn't an option. She respect the choke. She walks wonderfully on it, yet when I take it off I have the same old dog back. So I'm questioning my methods. Usher, on the other hand, I just use the prong for training and he doesn't need many corrections, but loves praise and a treat here and there.

It's kind of like playing the slots. If you get a treat or win a little at the machines, you keep playing. That's how someone explained it to me and it made sense. If you keep losing, you eventually walk away.

[RalphySD]

I use a prong collar with Ralphie but it is not to keep him from pulling.(he is also my service dog) It is for communication purposes.I have never made a correction using that collar,just verbal corrections. He works with a slack leash that is usually either wrapped around my body or just resting on a wheelchair arm or scooter handle. When I am holding the leash I can feel any change in the weight of the leash so if Ralph was not right at my side I would feel it before I would see it. Also ralph can easily feel through his collar any changes. Now having said that I only continue to use it because he wore it during his training and he associates it with working like his harness. Service dogs know when they are dressed for work things are different and Ralphie is not happy without the WHOLE uniform which is weird but it doesn't bother me except that people like to comment to me on how cruel I am to such a well behaved dog by using the prong collar.

 

Like at lot of others here I use whatever method that I think will work for what I want to teach but I use the clicker most. Ralphie is different from the other dogs I have had in that he likes me to show him what I want instead of trying to shape it he has no patience for that at all. My yorkie loves shaping with the clicker and even at 15 years old and deaf he always wants to be a part of training if the clicker is involved which I dont understand because he is deaf now,how would he hear the click?. He has only been deaf for a couple of years and is finally adjusted to it. Thanks God that we did agility and he learned a lot of hand signals.

 

 

Anne

These are great and interesting answers. I wanted to start Bailey out on a flat collar, that simply wasn't an option for me. When I rescued her from the pound, she was 66 pounds, due to her low thyroid and that is 1/2 my weight. She had never been on a leash before and her pulling me down the street with my bad balance just wasn't an option. She respect the choke. She walks wonderfully on it, yet when I take it off I have the same old dog back. So I'm questioning my methods. Usher, on the other hand, I just use the prong for training and he doesn't need many corrections, but loves praise and a treat here and there.

It's kind of like playing the slots. If you get a treat or win a little at the machines, you keep playing. That's how someone explained it to me and it made sense. If you keep losing, you eventually walk away.

[haleigh]

I've gotten lots of criticism from trainers, friends, family or even random people in the pet store how I train Joy. I never really had a set 'style' of training before.

 

She has had some heavy corrections on a prong collar up until recent times, which was a horrible thing for me to do, in hind sight. It has most likely contributed to her behavioral problems and reactivity she has now. Despite the prong, she was praised and rewarded more then corrected. Mostly I used yes for a marker, and lots of treats. when she turned a year, I realized how much potential she has, and how she wasn't living up to it. I felt like she could have accomplished a lot more for her age, and my training techniques were holding her back.

 

Joy has used the prong on and off up until earlier this year. Now, I try to keep physical corrections to a minimum- the only time she gets a pop is when she is getting reactive to the point she is trying to bite me, or if she is biting to the point of drawing blood (but that hasn't been the case in months, thank God!). Usually a small pop when she's on her martingale is enough to get her attention back on me so I can help her get out of that 'situation'.

 

I use the clicker a lot when training precision-based behaviors like formal recalls, finishes, heeling...etc. for everything else I just use a verbal marker. I utilize Joy's play drive as often as possible, and tug more then treat during playing. This gets her so happy and motivated during training, I've had people stop me training her on the street asking how I get her so happy during training.

 

I don't use a leash to train anything. I have a leash on a dog for safety and it serves as a method of keeping the dog safe, but when I train behaviors, I am completely hands-off. When I train heeling, the leash is slack. One of the things that I learned along the way in Rally is that "the leash is just a decoration". Now, when I am on a walk with my dog and there are cars on the road, the leash is much more than a decoration - it is a safety device. But when teaching Rally, Freestyle, Agility, I consider the leash a decoration. I do away with it as quickly as possible.

 

This is exactly how I've been regarding the leash lately. This is also because of me getting heavy-handed on the corrections with Joy as a younger dog. She starting avoiding me and the leash when I called her for training or a walk. I have stopped all aversion to me during training, but its still not 100% gone. Joy can perform the exact same way off leash as on, so I haven't found the need for it lately, unless we're outside.

[mbc1963]

Interesting topic! I was just thinking about this!

 

Walking down the street today, Buddy and I ran into some teenagers playing shirtless rollerblade street basketball - which apparently involves a lot of yelling, bouncing, stomping, and loud noises. Buddy was pretty blase about the whole thing - so different from how he was 3 years ago, when that would have sent him into shaking, cringing, fear. In fact, Buddy's reaction was pretty much the same as the reaction of all my previous dogs would have been.

 

So, I was thinking about puppies and rescue dogs I had as a kid, young adult, and up to now, with this specific dog who sent me running to read every book written about training. Seems as though the outcome with each dog has been pretty much the same: a well-mannered dog who knew the commands needed to walk through the suburban world without getting into too much trouble.

 

I guess what I'm figuring out is that dogs absorb a whole lot about us from our home culture - maybe more than they learn from specific "training methods." Since all my dogs have been raised in pretty much the same home culture, they've all ended up having pretty similar behaviors, even though they started out as wildly different personalities. What I accept and don't accept come from inside me, and the dogs figure it out, and behave accordingly.

 

My mother, the "won't touch a dog" lady in our house, used to always say: "All the dogs end up fitting in with the family." Seems more likely that the truth is, "The family ends up with the dog it creates."

 

Mary

[bexie]

I discovered clicker training and it is working great for me and Molly. I use a front-lead harness to keep her from pulling--it turns her back to me if she starts to pull and makes it easy to get her to focus to me when necessary.

[border_collie_crazy]

I dont use a "methode" I do what works for that dog for that individual thing I am teaching. Happy hardly needs any "training" she just does what I ask, usually from picking up from watching other dogs, but if I do any actual training with her, I use play training, UNLESS its something that is nessasry to her safety, then I screw the postive and teach her that whatever is NEVER acceptable. Misty LOVES Clicker training, its works like a charm for her and she thinks its the greatest thing ever. Electra is mixed, for some things Clicker training works best, for others old school methods work better, for others combining the 2 works best. Rusty needs physical training, positive training not only doesnt work on him, its makes his behaviour worse. alpha rolls, scruffs, corrections, these are what work best on Rusty. I do use treats for his agility training though, treats are great when he wants to do what you are offering them for lol

[MaggieDog]

I am a dog trainer by trade and I teach positive reinforcement training classes. We do use negative punishment in class, but I avoid all suggestions of positive punishment unless the behavior we're trying to stop is life threatening - most of my clients are not patient enough to use strict +R/-P in those situations.

 

Currently I teach obedience and offer private one-on-one lessons for behavioral issues. My basic classes are divided by age: Puppy Preschool (8 to 16wks), Super Puppy (17wks to 10months), and Canine Manners (6 months and up). Puppy Preschool is lure/reward and classical conditioning based, mostly because the puppy owners I see have so much else going on that teaching them clicker isn't going to be as successful (in terms of follow through and them seeing the relevance). All the rest of my classes are clicker based, though we do sometimes use lure/reward to get a behavior to click.

 

In classes the vast majority of my students use a regular 6' leash and either a flat collar or front lead harness. Since January (when my classes started), 3 dogs have used a head halter and one has used a prong. The prong is used *very* sparingly and only after other tools have failed - for the dog we used it on in class it was the best tool because she had major issues with the restriction of the harness and halter. She used it for 3 weeks and then was weaned to a flat collar.

 

For my own personal dogs I use the clicker for new skills, especially those requiring precision, plain praise and rewards for maintaining behavior, and verbal corrections for misbehavior I want to stop. Occasionally I do get a little harsher than I'd like due to emotions, but I'm working on that. I was much more physical and aggressive myself when I was using traditional methods, so I try to avoid those as much as possible.

 

My favorite rewards are "life rewards" like access to off leash time, chasing critters, going to "say hi" to people or dogs, etc. I do use food and toys a lot when teaching new things since they are easier to deliver. My girls are both walked on martingales due to the safety factor (we walk by busy roads), but are fine on a flat collar. We work on leash skills because I live in an apartment and both girls are in training as therapy animals and thus leashes are a huge part of their lives.

[JohnLloydJones]

I am not really a clicker fan- I'm old. I'm old school.

Uh, I know what you mean. I did try using a clicker, but it just didn't "click" for me. Maybe I'm too slow or clumsy? Maybe it was because I always had my hands full (leash, treats + clicker) and couldn't coordinate properly? I keep having guilty feelings and tell myself that I should try again. On the other hand, Senneca and I have reached the point where she just "knows" that she did right. She reads my body language so well that I really have to struggle not to give her negative responses that can shut her down. I have never known such a sensitive dog.

[sluj]

I can't manage clicker + treat + hand signal, so I just use a marker word (usually "good!" in a chirpy voice). For tricks, it's all positive; getting it wrong just means she has to try again. For important commands, I will use mild adversives if she blows me off - such as if she refuses to come, I go pick her up and deposit her where I want her. It's unpleasant for her, but in no way painful (to my back however....). I use a martingale collar on her because I know she can slip out of a buckle collar. I did use a chain for the same reason, but didn't notice any difference in switching to the martingale. I can't say that I've cured her of pulling, but we've worked out an accommodation: if we run the first and last blocks, then she'll walk loose lead for the rest of the walk

[bexie]

I put my clicker under my toe much of the time so I have hands free as needed. ;-)