Question: about bitches on heat

[OffTopic]

Which is why the OP is advised against trying to use sport lines in her future breeding program.

That's the idea I was trying to convey (poorly) from the viewpoint of someone who doesn't work these dogs. If they're bred for work, they can also be great companion pets because they have the "off switch" impulse control Becca was talking about.

 

You know, I wonder sometimes about all these people who want the sport dogs....agility/flyball/etc.. Are they really thinking enough ahead in regards to the longevity of the dog? BCs can live 12-15 years. That's a long commitment. What happens when this person has a lifestyle change (got older, had kids, whatever) and they have a go-go dog and the person no longer has the time or energy or inclination to do agility or flyball anymore?

Nevermind. Don't answer that.

That right there is enough to make me never want to breed dogs. I couldn't bear the thought of one of MY puppies ending up being euthanized or dumped in a shelter or stuck on a chain in the yard.

[MrSnappy]

What happens when this person has a lifestyle change (got older, had kids, whatever) and they have a go-go dog and the person no longer has the time or energy or inclination to do agility or flyball anymore?

 

They end up in rescue. Or the shelter. That's why we pull dogs who show us they know how to use the agility equipment in our backyards. It's very sad.

 

RDM

[painted_ponies]

They end up in rescue. Or the shelter. That's why we pull dogs who show us they know how to use the agility equipment in our backyards. It's very sad.

 

RDM

 

Wow. That is incredibly sad.

[Shetlander]

You know, I wonder sometimes about all these people who want the sport dogs....agility/flyball/etc.. Are they really thinking enough ahead in regards to the longevity of the dog? BCs can live 12-15 years. That's a long commitment. What happens when this person has a lifestyle change (got older, had kids, whatever) and they have a go-go dog and the person no longer has the time or energy or inclination to do agility or flyball anymore?

Nevermind. Don't answer that.

 

I think the majority of sports people see their dogs as pets and companions first. At least the ones I know do. I'm sure there are some people who look at their dogs as primarily for agility, but even a few people I know who successfully compete at the National level are very faithful and caring when it comes to their dogs, including those that don't "cut it" as top notch competitors.

 

As far as sports-bred dogs being go-go all the time, I sometimes wonder how much of it is the breeding and how much is the environment. Some sports people seem to want to spend hours a day training and exercising their dogs. Is it always the dog who lacks an off switch and has over the top drive or can it be the owner? Many BC's are very "game" and ready to go at a moments notice but still all very capable of kicking back and hanging out. However, if they're never taught how or expected to settle except out of exhaustion, then you get that go-go stereotype of a sports bred BC.

[OffTopic]

I think the majority of sports people see their dogs as pets and companions first. At least the ones I know do. I'm sure there are some people who look at their dogs as primarily for agility, but even a few people I know who successfully compete at the National level are very faithful and caring when it comes to their dogs, including those that don't "cut it" as top notch competitors.

Yeah, sorry, I guess I painted agility people with a broader brush than I should have. But I still wonder if that competitive edge isn't creeping in, even with people who know the breed's working roots and love the dogs as companions.

You know.....those super competitive people who want a smaller, faster, higher jumping, almost-bionic go, go, go dog. Therefore creating more and more sport breeders as demand for those super dogs increases.

Breeders who are likely to have a few "extra" pups they couldn't sell to serious sports people.

 

Soooo, those dogs will go to the casual sports person, the people I was really talking about. The people who see the frisbee dog in the park, or the agility trials on TV and think they just HAVE to have one. The people who think that if they just had a dog like that, they'd get more exercise/meet cool chicks/meet cool guys.

The people who will swear to the breeder that they know exactly what they're getting (a frisbee dog!) and they'll take great care of that cute little fuzzy-wuzzy puppy and make smoochie noises all the way home.

These will be the people who who find out that the frisbee dog doesn't automatically know how to do those cool tricks and besides, it's really a lot of trouble to go to the park every day.

Or who just can't understand why the dog keeps chewing the bedspread/pillows/remote control/cell phone/headphones/i-pod (last straw, dammit!).

And they will take the dog to the shelter or dump it out in the country (where it has a fighting chance, right? Because it needs to be on a farm and some farmer will see this border collie and think "where have you been all my life, little doggie? <sarcasm>).

 

Now, before someone jumps on this, I do actually realize that not all casual sports people will do that. Really I do. And there are some great dog owners out there who just have a BC as a pet. You know.....like me.

But some people will flat give up on a dog and that's why I could never be a breeder.

It would scare me to death that one of the puppies that I cared for and watched grow from a slimy little blind slug to a cute fuzzy-wuzzy, wriggly little puppy would end up in a home like that.

I couldn't live with that possibility. Or the guilt.

 

And I think the OP needs to think about that part of the breeding process, if he/she hasn't already.

[Root Beer]

As far as sports-bred dogs being go-go all the time, I sometimes wonder how much of it is the breeding and how much is the environment. Some sports people seem to want to spend hours a day training and exercising their dogs. Is it always the dog who lacks an off switch and has over the top drive or can it be the owner? Many BC's are very "game" and ready to go at a moments notice but still all very capable of kicking back and hanging out. However, if they're never taught how or expected to settle except out of exhaustion, then you get that go-go stereotype of a sports bred BC.

 

I guess it can be the owner, but sometimes it is the dog. Speedy has a very poor off-switch. No amount of training seems to be able to change the fact that his brain is wired this way. I've been able to help him improve, and as he gets older, it gets a bit better, but he will always be a dog that I have to manage somewhat around things that can overstimulate him in a nanosecond. There is the possibility that whatever overall mental problems he has are a factor in this, but there is definitely something "lacking" in his mental capacity that makes this something that really isn't completely "fix-able". I suspect that his breeding is at least a portion of the cause for this.

 

I used to blame myself for Speedy's lack of off-switch, but after six years of diligent training with him, it is pretty evident that a large part of the reason for it is his own out of whack brain chemistry.

 

Dean has an off-switch. He has had to be taught how to use it in different situations, but it's there. He has learned how to control himself in situations that would scramble Speedy's brain even after six years in less than a year of training. Dean is "game" and ready to go at a moments notice. He can go "over the top" if I get him really riled up with play. But he can snap right out of that "go-go" mode in a way that Speedy simply can't. It is pretty evident to me that Dean's breeding is a big reason for this.

 

I can't say if Dean's breeding was "good" or "bad" because he's a rescue and I don't know who his breeder was, exactly. But the original owners told the rescue that his parents were actively working (on sheep) Border Collies. The difference in the way that each of them manages their drive is stunning.

[SnickerKitten]

"He remains the best dog I ever owned, but I fear he would have been put down sooner or later anyway as he was an incurable snapper (attempts to stop this even by professional behaviourists failed and we decided it was probably inherited) with some, yet loved others. I'm not sure he was quite right in the head but I remain adamant that he changed my life for the best and I am certain I will one day breed fantastic dogs like him"

 

The above is an excellent reason for breeding to be left to those with experience- years and years and years of experience. If the snapping behavior was inherited then that dog and the dogs that were bred to produce him should never be bred. I know you loved him and he was very special to you but there is no way that a dog that snaps at people would ever be considered "fantastic" by any breeder that I'd want to consider getting a dog from.

 

Oftentimes it is the dog with the most serious issues that comes along and changes our lives or us for the better, but that is no reason to try to breed dogs that have issues.

 

Also, breeding BCs to be the fabulous working dogs that they are produces plenty of BCs that aren't quite cut out for herding but are then able to excel at other jobs, sports, etc. Breeding without aiming toward the best working BCs just weakens the breed as a whole. Instead of getting some BCs that are excellent stock dogs, some BCs that are great at sports, and some that are great as companions you would then be producing some that are great at sports, some that are great as companions, dwindling off to all that are ok as companions and the BC as the breed we know and love is gone.

 

I can tell you that I adore my Stormy. I've never had a dog that meant more to me, heck, when I was gone with the Red Cross for several weeks it was Stormy that I was pining for and not the rest of my family (husband and kids- not that I don't adore them as well but I wasn't desperate to have them with me for that time period as I was with Stormy) but if he weren't neutered I would still NEVER in a million years consider breeding him.

 

Lori

[Shetlander]

Yeah, sorry, I guess I painted agility people with a broader brush than I should have. But I still wonder if that competitive edge isn't creeping in, even with people who know the breed's working roots and love the dogs as companions.

You know.....those super competitive people who want a smaller, faster, higher jumping, almost-bionic go, go, go dog. Therefore creating more and more sport breeders as demand for those super dogs increases.

 

Oh, I know there are tons of sports breeders out there turning out dogs that will not fit into the average family or casual owner's lifestyle. And unfortunately, there are always jerks who don't really care about their dogs in any sport or activity -- obedience, agility and I imagine even sheepdog trialing. I certainly don't know every sports competitor out there, but I do think the majority love their dogs and are committed to them for life.

[Shetlander]

I used to blame myself for Speedy's lack of off-switch, but after six years of diligent training with him, it is pretty evident that a large part of the reason for it is his own out of whack brain chemistry.

 

I didn't mean to imply that any dog lacking an off switch was due to the owner liking it that way or not teaching one, though I do think that happens fairly often. In my book, temperament (genetics/brain chemistry) trumps all. You can ruin a dog. You can build on a dog's strengths often to a great extent, but you still have the basic clay you're working from. Or as I said of my genetically shy dog, "he'll always be who he is." He made tremendous strides, built much confidence, gained many admirers for his inherent dignity, and became my favorite dog ever, but underneath he still battled fears and uncertainty. That wasn't going to change and I needed to accept it.

[Michelle K]

You know, I wonder sometimes about all these people who want the sport dogs....agility/flyball/etc.. Are they really thinking enough ahead in regards to the longevity of the dog? BCs can live 12-15 years. That's a long commitment. What happens when this person has a lifestyle change (got older, had kids, whatever) and they have a go-go dog and the person no longer has the time or energy or inclination to do agility or flyball anymore?

Nevermind. Don't answer that.

 

I've been following this thread and I think there has been some excellent points made throughout. One thing I wanted to say, based on my situation personally, is in regards to what you said. When I took in Nykie (who was an impulse buy and ended up needing a home), I had always loved the BC and wanted one, but had never lived with a purebred. I agreed to take her due to the fact that I love the herding dogs, and Presley (one of my Shelties) didn't turn out to be an agility dog, like I'd hoped. She suffered from severe car sickness and would shut down when she was out of her comfort zone, which I'm still trying to overcome, but I'm trying a new approach and we'll see how it works. Now, before I go any further, let me point out that even though I had agility in mind for Nykie, at the time, I was taking into consideration how she would blend with our family and the fact that she may not do well in it, because when you get a puppy you never know whether or not they'll mature into the dog that you hope they will. Like with Dreamer, he's a great dog and an excellent therapy dog, but he does not have the desire to do anything energetic. He hated agility to the point of planting himself and refusing to do anything after only a few obstacles. He doesn't get motivated for playing ball outside or anything. About the length of his energy is a short walk, but that's a perfect example of what is happening to these breeds. Dreamer is from show lines. Presley and Rain are from working lines, and it's obvious, because they have a lot more motivation and energy. I can honestly say that I have learned so much over the course of the past year alone about the AKC. I am really broken-hearted over what is happening to the BC as well as my Shelties. Prior to getting Dream and Pres, I knew that I didn't like what I was seeing with some of the breeds (especially the BC) that were being shown, but I didn't realize just how it was until after. It's awful. Back to the agility, though, Nykie has been introduced to it and she will go through additional training this Spring. We'll see how she does. I'm also hoping to introduce her to stock, if things work out the way I hope. You mentioned lifestyle changes, and that's a good point. For us, I'm already married and have a 16 month old daughter, so my life will definitely have a number of changes, but I know that I have always loved dogs and no matter what life throws my way, I work through it. I refuse to be one of these people that you see ads for all of the time that say something to the extent of "Great dog needs new home"....because of "new baby", "moving", "spouse won't allow to keep", etc. I guess this comes from doing rescue. When you see so many in the shelters, rescues, and classified ads, you are more particular about the dogs you bring home. I just wish that more people took the time to think things through and do the homework needed before getting a BC or any dog. By the way, this is in no way pointed at the OP, I was just commenting on what I quoted.

[OffTopic]

I refuse to be one of these people that you see ads for all of the time that say something to the extent of "Great dog needs new home"....because of "new baby", "moving", "spouse won't allow to keep", etc. I guess this comes from doing rescue.

Don't those just break your heart? I can sort of understand the baby one and the spouse one (only sort of), but I just don't get the moving one. What state are these people moving to that doesn't allow dogs? And if it's because they're moving into an apartment that doesn't allow dogs, why didn't they find one that did?

I'm with you.....once a dog is mine, that dog is mine. Period.

 

Anyway, I really think I should make it clear that I don't hate or look down on agility people.

I realize that some of what I posted might be insulting to people on this board who do agility with their dogs that really was not my intention. It's just the people who get into it for the wrong reasons and give up on their dogs when it's no longer fun that irk me. And the whole backyard breeding/sports breeding thing.

I personally think agility is cool and if Finn turns out to show an aptitude for it, I might consider it for him. But only for fun and exercise, not for competition. He's got a long way to go obedience-wise before that's a even a consideration.

[dogsofmenace]

What state are these people moving to that doesn't allow dogs? And if it's because they're moving into an apartment that doesn't allow dogs, why didn't they find one that did?

I'm with you.....once a dog is mine, that dog is mine. Period.

 

Those make me so mad. My mom used to evaluate owner surrenders for rescue. These people were moving to Oregon or wherever and thats why they were giving up their dog. At that point my mom reached her breaking point and said to the people "You know, I think they allow dogs in Oregon." They didn't respond to that. Hmm.

 

Regarding the topic at hand here: Although people may think that breeding is cool or shows how much you love the breed, it really isn't a good thing to do unless you have good, proven working dogs. Breeding good pet border collies isn't breeding border collies. Its breeding labs or goldens that looks like border collies. And if you want a dog that acts exactly like a lab, why don't you just get a lab instead? Rescue is such a better option! For every dog that someone breeds, theres a rescue that has to die because of it.

 

Also, a think a breeder should have a lot of experience with a type of dog before they even consider to breed. Judging by Tobie's memorial site (by the way, I'm so sorry for what happened to him :[) it seems like you only have a couple of years of BC experience. I think you should stick with the breed a lot longer and then consider breeding, but only if you know border collies inside and out and what goes into a good working dog.

[Root Beer]

I didn't mean to imply that any dog lacking an off switch was due to the owner liking it that way or not teaching one, though I do think that happens fairly often.

 

I definitely didn't take it that way.

[Michelle K]

Sorry, I'm not trying to hijack the thread!

 

Don't those just break your heart? I can sort of understand the baby one and the spouse one (only sort of), but I just don't get the moving one. What state are these people moving to that doesn't allow dogs? And if it's because they're moving into an apartment that doesn't allow dogs, why didn't they find one that did?

I'm with you.....once a dog is mine, that dog is mine. Period.

 

Anyway, I really think I should make it clear that I don't hate or look down on agility people.

I realize that some of what I posted might be insulting to people on this board who do agility with their dogs that really was not my intention. It's just the people who get into it for the wrong reasons and give up on their dogs when it's no longer fun that irk me. And the whole backyard breeding/sports breeding thing.

I personally think agility is cool and if Finn turns out to show an aptitude for it, I might consider it for him. But only for fun and exercise, not for competition. He's got a long way to go obedience-wise before that's a even a consideration.

 

Yes, it does. The thing with me about the baby situation is that in most cases where there's a will there's a way. Koty, my Schnauzer, will be 8yrs old in March. He's been with me since he was 6wks old. He went through lots of socialization, an obedience class, and earned his Canine Good Citizen certificate, but he absolutely hated kids due to way too many bad experience of children trying to grab him, screaming in his face, etc. He would lunge and go into a horrible barking fit anytime a child came into sight. He snapped at several that would try to come up to him. Of course, those were children ignoring my warnings. I actually had to pick him up and turn my back on a child one time, because she kept trying to touch him and he was growling at her. I had told her 3 times that he did not like children and that he may bite. Naturally, no parents were anywhere around. And people wonder why so many kids get bit! Anyway, when I found out that I was pregnant in January of 2006, I was very nervous about Koty. I knew that he hated children, but I loved him too much to just give him up. I went out and bought a lifesize baby doll that cried, laughed, snored, drank a bottle, etc. The first night that I brought the doll home and it cried, Koty grabbed the doll out of my hands and literally slung (sp??) it across the room. I was very worried at that point. After a few months of working with Koty and the doll, he started accepting it. We set up the nursery about a month ahead of time, plus I got into the habit of rubbing my hands and arms down with baby wipes. I even wiped them on him, Dream, and Pres to get them used to the smell. When our daughter was born, my husband took home several blankets that she had been wrapped in. He gave them to the dogs to sleep with, so they were accustomed to her scent before she came home. Koty is extremely protective of her, and if she cries and we don't go right that minute, he will find us. I feel that if someone truly loves their dog, then they will make the effort to make it work out. We did. I've heard so many rescues, shelter workers, breeders, etc. that say that herding dogs and small children do not mix. Some have even put a limitation of saying that they will not let pups go to homes with children under the age of 6 or older. I think that it needs to be on a case by case issue, because we live with 4 herding dogs and they are all great with our daughter. We have gone to extreme lengths to teach them how to behave around her and we're even teaching her how to treat them.

 

Oh, I knew what you meant. I agree with you completely. It's like if Dream and Pres had gone to one of the types of homes that you're talking about, they would have been bounced on somewhere else. Rain is a rescue. She was on her way to being dumped in the shelter just because her owner said he couldn't get her housebroken. The dog has not had an accident in the house since she's been here. Go figure! There are so many horrible backyard breeders in my area. Too many around here breeding mixed breeds and selling for high prices. Then you have those trying to create the "Miniature Australian Shepherd" or "Pocket Size Shelties". It's horrible. I am a full supporter of rescues and shelters, but I, also, support the truly good responsible breeders....the ones who are breeding to better the breed or for what the breed was meant to do, such as our BC breeders trying to preserve the true working BC. I hope the OP of this thread can read into the passion behind everyone's posts and really do a good job on learning more about breeding and making the right decisions.