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Hi everyone :D

For anyone who owns and breeds border collies in a home environment, would you be able to help me answer my question?

If you have several BCs living together in a home environment, (lets say with a large property, a fenced yard for them connected to the house, and one or two constructed kennels, and one of your bitches goes on heat, how would you go about keeping her from being gang raped by all the guys? Is it best to lock the boys up in the kennel (when they arent exercising etc) to keep them from her or to lock the single bitch in the kennel when the boys arent restrained until its time for one of the lucky guys? I've been thinking its best to just keep the bitch in the kennel but if the boys are free will they destroy it trying to get to her? (by kennels i mean fenced things with a shelter and small amount of yard) Does anyone have any suggestions about what they've done about this with past experiences?

Also, what are the pro's and con's of having two bitches in whelp at a similar time to each other (within a week or so)?

Thanks guys :rolleyes:

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Dogs can mate through chainlink and motivated males can climb/dig much more effectively than you might guess - if I were you, I'd be keeping at least 2 barriers between the bitch and the males (i.e. crate and door, kennel and solid fence, etc.). Of course I'd also be getting my bitch spayed asap, too.

 

Have you read the "read this first" section of the Board? Since you're considering breeding it would be a very advisable read.

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No clue. My dogs are fixed. Why? I'm confused. Do you plan to breed them professionally?? Or are you trying to avoid breeding? Spaying & neutering is easier..if you ask me.

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Hi Lorellan, welcome to the Boards.

 

Please read this, with special attention to the paragraph beginning "For the good of the breed, border collies should be bred only for working ability." Moreover, unless you have a lot of experience with border collies and a very good, specific reason for breeding, producing puppies is not good either for the breed or for the many individual dogs in rescues and shelters who need the homes that your puppies would take up.

 

Keep your bitch in heat apart from your males to avoid breeding ("rape" is not an issue in dogs). It doesn't matter how you do it as long as you do it. You can have males in the kennel when the female is out, and vice versa, as long as the kennel is impenetrable. The boys will not destroy her kennel if you do not let them.

 

The cons to having two bitches in whelp at the same time are (1) puppies require a lot of time and effort during their formative weeks if they are to be raised right, and twice as many pups means twice as much of that time and effort, and (2) you will have produced twice as many pups. I cannot think of a pro.

 

If you spay your bitches, you will not have to deal with any of these problems.

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One thing I would add to the already great advice, is that if one of them needs to be locked up, I would pick the bitch unless you have enough kennels so that each boy has his own. Even boys who get along just fine at all times will become idiots when a bitch in heat is about. If they are enclosed together there is more opportunity for them to get pretty snarky with each other. JMO Otherwise, ditto the rest.

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From what the op wrote, I cannot make the judgement if he/she is or is not a backyard breeder. What I will say, is that if the dogs are to be bred, there should be some tutelage going on, which would be better served in a private situation, or at least in a breeder's setting. Bitches in heat will allow males to breed them anywhere, any how, depending on the female. So, your best options are to keep your bitches in different areas of the house. Do not let her out of your sight, ever. Watch your males for heightened aggression to eachother, especially if they are experienced. Vigilance is key, and deciding if your bitches are "all that and a bag of chips" is as important as anything else. Puppies are LOADS of work, and you really should have homes lined up for them before they are born.

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I've been thinking its best to just keep the bitch in the kennel but if the boys are free will they destroy it trying to get to her? (by kennels i mean fenced things with a shelter and small amount of yard)

 

I don't know about destroying it, but I've known dogs and bitches to breed through fences, dig under fences, and climb over fences when love is in the air.

 

But please, please don't breed her unless both she and the sire haven proven their superior working abilities and you have people on the waiting list for pups. I spend a whole lot of time in shelters pulling border collies who were produced for the pet market. There is no need to produce any more - we already have way more than enough.

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I don't know about destroying it, but I've known dogs and bitches to breed through fences, dig under fences, and climb over fences when love is in the air.

 

But please, please don't breed her unless both she and the sire haven proven their superior working abilities and you have people on the waiting list for pups. I spend a whole lot of time in shelters pulling border collies who were produced for the pet market. There is no need to produce any more - we already have way more than enough.

 

Thanks for all the information guys :rolleyes:

How I said that probably came out wrong: I'm not a backyard breeder, I simply meant by 'home environment' is that i don't see the point in owning and breeding dogs if you have them all locked up in kennels constantly, so I woud prefer to rear them in the household and property most of the time (until bitches come on heat of course) and keep them as my much loved workers and companions around me. Of course as for me the working drive is paramount, I'll be breeding with some aspect of work in mind (farm work, agility, flyball and obedience etc.) as I live in a rural community where that is what BCs are bred for.

Thanks again, eveyone :D

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Of course as for me the working drive is paramount, I'll be breeding with some aspect of work in mind (farm work, agility, flyball and obedience etc.) as I live in a rural community where that is what BCs are bred for.

Thanks again, eveyone :rolleyes:

 

So you are an experienced stockdog handler then? You know how to train and critically evaluate a working dog?

 

BCs aren't bred for agility or flyball or obedience, BTW. Or at least, they shouldn't be. Most of those things aren't inherited.

 

RDM

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Having re-read your posts, it seems to me you don't actually have dogs at the present time but are perhaps considering how to set up a breeding operation in the future.

 

If you'd like to breed border collies one day, I'd suggest starting by attending stockdog trials and watching the dogs work. If you'll go the USBCHA web page you'll find a list of trials and can pick one in your area. Talk to the open handlers, when they've finished their runs, and learn all you can about the breed. Then you'd want to find yourself a dog and a trainer to work with and learn to work stock with your dog.

 

Then, as RDM said, after you've had years of experience learning to handle, train and evaluate working stockdogs, you'll be in a position to judge which dogs should (and should not) be bred from. You will want to build a reputation that will make people interested in pups from your dogs, so you'll have people on a waiting list for pups before you breed.

 

Agility and flyball and obedience and all that are perfectly fine activities to engage in with dogs. Border collies excel at them because the traits that make a good stockdog also make a good sport dog. But those activities aren't what I mean when I talk about working border collies.

 

I may be misreading your posts, but I'm writing in the belief that you are a person with interest in but no experience with border collies. If that's not the case, maybe you could provide us with more information.

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I'm not a backyard breeder, I simply meant by 'home environment' is that i don't see the point in owning and breeding dogs if you have them all locked up in kennels constantly, so I woud prefer to rear them in the household and property most of the time (until bitches come on heat of course)

 

This sounds to me like you are not even sure what the term backyard breeder means. It is not someone who breeds dogs in their backyard rather than keeping them locked up in kennels all the time (this is what we call a puppy mill by the way). It is someone who breeds dogs as a hobby with no real goal other than "making money" (really, if done properly, there is no money in breeding) and without proper reasons, such as breeding exemplary specimens of the breed that will further the purpose for which the breed was created (in the case of border collies, herding).

 

That said, everyone else's advice is great, especially the last post by painted_ponies. We all love these dogs. Hopefully you do as well and if you do undertake any breeding, it will be for the right reasons and done in the right way. My 2-year-old purebred BC rescue who spent a month sitting in the pound after being bounced around to different homes hopes the same.

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I understand exactly what a backyard breeder is, and I never want to become one. Sure, BCs weren't bred with Agility and Flyball etc in mind, but why on earth is there a dispute about this? I have owned BCs throughout my life, and though I will never stop learning I am not by any means an inexperienced handler, but simply asking some questions on breeding as all my BCs have been desexed ones. I think working in BCs is paramount, but I don't think it should be 'all' the BC is. I know many people with fantastic BCs who either do light work or none and are fantastic Agility/Flyball/Obedience dogs, and their handlers/owners would never go back after owning one. Neither would I. My dream is to one day breed wonderful BCs who can work but aren't so driven to stock that their instincts can't be channeled to other places. They ARE working dogs, but that's not all they are and I don't see the harm in producing the occasional, healthy, problem-free BC from an infusion of showing and working lines for the people working cattle and sheep and also the active athletic people and families so interested in the outdoors where I live.

My first BC, a purebred rescue named Tobie, was not interested in the slightest in stock (he got offended when the cows next door stared at him) but that didn't make him any less a BC. He channeled that instead into the tennis ball, and would have gone far (and done his active mind good) in Agility/Flyball had he not tragically been poisoned just before his 2nd birthday by the annual heart worm injection (which contains moxydectin; some BCs are slightly allergic, some are killed by it, and some aren't affected at all). He remains the best dog I ever owned, but I fear he would have been put down sooner or later anyway as he was an incurable snapper (attempts to stop this even by professional behaviourists failed and we decided it was probably inherited) with some, yet loved others. I'm not sure he was quite right in the head but I remain adamant that he changed my life for the best and I am certain I will one day breed fantastic dogs like him, but with the certainty of the pups and their parents past, and that I will treat them in the best way possible (something that obviously didn't happen to Tobie in the first 9 months of his life).

 

Number one: don't just assume, THEN ask questions, do the opposite.

Number two: NEVER use the annual heartworm injection on your dog, it might kill them. Use monthly tablets instead.

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Hi

I think you missunderstand what people are saying

Its not that BC's should only work stock - plenty people on here have dogs that will never work stock

Some fantastic agility, flyball and the rest - but will never work a sheep

 

What they are saying that BC's should only be BRED if they are really good stock dogs

Then in that litter you will get a mix of dogs - many who will be good at sports and some with no interest in stock

 

But if you dont breed for the working ability then v quickly that ability will be lost

 

It is explained far better elswhere on the boards

 

I am really sorry your Tobie was taken away from you so young

 

Just think tho - there are millions of Tobies sitting in rescues - and for every pup you breed one will have to be put to sleep because there are more dogs in the world than people who want to own a dog

 

Glad you are hear asking questions and doing recearch before you start breeding anyway

 

But as someone once said (think it was on here)

'while there are dogs dying in shelters - dont breed your dog'

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Lorellan,

 

Please don't take this wrong, but you may be getting off on the wrong foot here. Why not introduce yourself first, before venturing strong and controversial opinions like some of the statements in your last post? Without more information about your background with border collies, people are liable to make assumptions about you based on what you've written, and you may be offended by some of those assumptions.

 

I had not heard about this problem with moxidectin before your post, so I did a google search on it. The search led me almost immediately to a website with a memorial for a dog named "Tobie" that sounds like your dog (memorial website here). I don't know if that actually was your dog, but it seems like a reasonable assumption given what you've written so far.

 

On the memorial page, the author writes "In June 2005 we bought him from the pound ...He was our first and only dog..."

 

In your post above, you wrote "I have owned BCs throughout my life..."

 

Those two statements could not possibly have been written by the same person, as your writing style is far too sophisticated for a 2 year-old :rolleyes:

 

You just joined these boards four days ago and already you've come out swinging ("...why on earth is there a dispute about this?"). There's nothing wrong with the questions you've asked -- ones just like them have certainly been debated on these boards before -- but the responses you get will probably be more focused if you offer a bit more information about your background with the breed.

 

It seems to work best for everyone that way. Just my 2 cents.

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Um.

 

Well, first: Welcome to the Boards.

 

In the spirit of "don't assume and THEN ask questions, do the opposite".... Maybe I missed your response to the question, but did you in fact read the Sticky posted by Eileen at the top of each forum? I'm asking, rather than assuming either way. It's important to the rest of the discussion, though, which is why I'm asking.

 

However, either way (read it/didn't).... you might want to pay particular attention to points two and three in that sticky. To paraphrase those points: No one here considers that DOING dog sports with your BC is bad or wrong or makes your dog less of a BC or you less of a BC owner... just that BREEDING for dog sports is bad for the BC as a whole, and should not be done for any reason. If one breeds a BC for stockwork, the resulting athleticism, drive and workability of the breed should be readily adapted to other activities (although I grant you that some BCs would be too intense for the some "pet" homes.) I'm not sure what you mean exactly by the statement: "My dream is to one day breed wonderful BCs that can work but aren't so driven to stock that their instincts can't be channeled other places. They ARE working dogs, but that's not all they are and I don't see the harm in producing the occasional, healthy, problem-free BC from an infusion of showing and working lines for the people working cattle and sheep and also the active atheltic people and families so interested in the outdoors where I live." Since I'm not sure what you mean by that, I'm asking (rather than assuming): One: Do you mean by "showing lines" those BCs that are bred for show venues such as AKC, and by "working lines" do you mean dogs bred specifically for stockwork, such as ABCA lines? And two: Do you mean that your intention is to one day produce BCs that are bred from ABCA and AKC lines (crossing the two), with the intention of producing pups for both working stockmen AND pet/sports homes?

 

To address your question "Why on earth should there be a dispute about this?": I may be mistaken about this, but my impression from those who depend on their dogs for their livelihood is that they'd look very much askance at any dog of AKC lines, simply because stockworking ability is quickly lost from lines that are bred for anything EXCEPT work - and AKC show dogs are bred for appearance in the ring, at least in part, and sometimes in full, without equal (or maybe ANY) regard for stockworking ability. Hence, if your goal is to produce working stockdogs AND dogs for sports etc, it's my contention that your best bet would be to select ONLY sound, proven stock dogs as your breeding pool, and go from there. I won't say EVERY pup from that kind of breeding will work stock, but your odds are much higher - and as you point out, there are other jobs and activities available for those who are not going to be working dogs (either through lack of ability or because of going to a non-working home). As many of us who have dogs from working parents will attest, they can certainly be put to other tasks with good success. Thus you'd accomplish BOTH your goals (dogs to work stock AND dogs for other purposes) by breeding from working dogs only. If you breed from dogs who are NOT proven workers (either all non-working parents, or one parent working, the other non-working), you're likely to accomplish only one of your goals at best, which would be dogs for "other" purposes than working stock. Moreover, that would contribute to the loss of the valuable genetics that allow a BC to do what they have been bred to do for hundreds of years, and would begin to undo the meticulous work of generations: the careful, judicious selection of the genetics that created the premier working stockdog in all the world.

 

It is no exaggeration to say that the traits that make a BC a working dog are genetically complex, and that it takes constant selection pressure towards those traits in order to maintain them. As soon as that selection pressure is relaxed, parts of the "array" begin to be lost. That can be seen in as little as two generations - perhaps as little as a single generation, depending on the parents selected. Once those genetics are lost, where are we to go to replace them? It's not like we can go to Stockdog-Genetics-R-Us and get a replacement set. We can only keep them by careful breeding and maintainance of those traits in living dogs. For this reason, those who are the champions of the breed - and may their names be blessed for all time - ADAMANTLY oppose breeding for any other purpose than the ability to work stock. Whether or not every pup so produced WILL work stock is not the point. The point is that to breed for any other purpose will destroy what the BC is, and the dog that we know and love as the BC - the dog that is so much more than just a stockdog - will be gone forever.

 

I hope that makes sense as to why there's dispute about this. It sounds like your dreams of breeding are some way off at the moment, so there's plenty of time for you to educate yourself about the why's and wherefore's of breeding only from proven working stock. It sounds so far as if you're a reasoning, thoughtful adult. I hope that your apparent intelligence brings you to see the value of protecting the gentics that make your BCs the dog you love, the breed that you'd never go back from. Please don't turn your back on the wellbeing of the breed by producing puppies that, as dear as they might be individually, represent the erosion of what makes the BC what it is.

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Hi again everyone :rolleyes:

Thanks again so much for your comments, they mean a great deal to me and as I said before I have much to learn. To the person who found what is definately the memorial to our dog, remember that I did state earlier Tobie was our first dog, since him we have owned others :D

I, like everyone else here have a great love of the breed (even for years before I owned my first one) and would do nothing to harm it. In breeding (indeed a far off goal) I would say the working aspect is something of the BC I love, and though I have been more exposed to Agility and Obedience, I would definately love to give herding and trials a try one day.

I'm sorry if I did take offense to some things but I considered I had given enough information to prevent assumption, but that doesn't matter.

My point was that I was trying to find some information about breeding as I am trying to learn as much as possible and don't have any access at the moment to experienced breeders to ask them personally, and I thought I might give it a go here.

But with this may I (change the topic randomly) STRESS the point that moxydectin can be very dangerous and I warn anyone against it, I'm sure everyone has experienced the pain of losing a pet, but it is much worse if you feel guilty of the crime (I wish we had researched the drug first), and I wouldn't like anyone to feel like we did. (To who found the website, I might post a topic with a special link so people can access it and learn, thanks for finding it in the first place :D )

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Lorellan,

 

Welcome to the boards. I have some questions for you too.

 

You live in a rural community, but do you have livestock yourself? Do you work your dogs on sheep and/or cattle? How long have you been working them? Have you trialed them in ISDS style trials?

 

These are some important questions if you're thinking of breeding your dogs. I live on a farm myself & work my dogs regularly and have trialed them, but I don't breed them. As a foster home for rescue, I see too many Border Collies to believe that there is a need for them to be bred without some serious thought & commitment.

 

Laura

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First of all, I'm getting the impression that you are in the UK? We don't have the annual moxidectin shot here. There is a monthly spot-on treatment but no annual shot - we had a six month one but that was withdrawn from the market after some questions arose as to its safety.

 

Second, I'd like to emphasize again that you would benefit greatly from learning a bit more about the working side of the Border Collie/sheepdog. If you really are this passionate, invest some time in what you propose to do. Do not breed unless it is your goal to produce the best possible pups. If your standard includes working, it must be not just some vague idea of moving stock around, but being useful at some particular type of stockwork, and preferably proving competance in ISDS trials.

 

You can only get a notion of what this side of the breed is about, by both attending trials, and also visiting commercial farms. Not on TV, nor just talking to these folks on the phone, nor reading books, nor even attending just a couple big trials.

 

Once you have your footing in the working community, you will find that your basic breeding questions will also start to be answered, plus many questions you have not thought to bring up.

 

Finally, touching on your comment about crossing show and working lines to produce a hybrid that can "do anything." Please recall that before there were show lines, it was the dog bred for work only that could "do anything." These dogs were not bred to go, go, go. They were bred to be intense in work, yes, but also have a great deal of patience when taught right, impulse control, wise dogs who were companions as well as working partners to their masters. That balance of personality is still vital to the work we do.

 

If you breed a dog without regard to the work, you will lose that balance. You may end up with a dog with the intensity of the working side, but without the impulse control (the show side does not have this built in as lowered drive does not require it). You may end up with a dog that is highly sensitive to pressure, yet doesn't have enough desire to please to guide his instincts to run or snap at what bothers him.

 

A working dog must have balance - not the kind that involves control of stock, but a balance of the somewhat extreme traits that make him a useful working partner. You can't watch a dog playing with a tennis ball or jumping an agility hurdle and assess whether his pressure sensitivity is appropriately balanced by impulse control.

 

If you don't have sufficient interest in all this, that's fine. Just don't breed. If you keep males and females together, sterilize one or the other or both. Enjoy your dogs for their abilities and as companions, and leave the breeding to someone else.

 

Good luck and welcome!

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First of all, I'm getting the impression that you are in the UK?

 

I have a feeling Australian as in Lorellan's profile the time setting would put him/her in Adelaide/Darwin time zone. I was also under the impression that agility and obedience people in the Uk prefered ISDS or working sheepdogs from clinics I have done with good UK obedience trainers.

 

Things are slightly different here than in most other countries with BCs (hangs my head in shame). Our ANKC is a closed registry and only recognises other FEI registries and none of the working ones. There is also probably a far greater divide with the show borders and the working ones because of this closed registry. We also have ANKC breeders who breed very good performance dogs but never show or breed just to a show standard. Too my knowledge there are only about 4 dual registered ISDS or ABCA/ANKC dual registered entire dogs in the country and not that many more bitches. There are a few more ISDS only registered dogs but not many.

 

Our working registry for BCs is the ASDWA where you can register dogs of known and unknown pedigrees for trialling. Kelpies have the WKC and we also have Koolies. We also don't have ISDS style trials at the moment though moves are being made to start them, but we do have 3 sheep trials, yard trials and cattle trials under our own rules that were developed for Aus conditions. We do have very good working bred BCs and some brilliant stockmen and dog trainers.

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Number one: don't just assume, THEN ask questions, do the opposite.

 

Hi again, Lorellan,

 

What do you understand the term "backyard breeder" to mean? I don't know if it's used in Australia at all, or if so, whether its meaning there is the same as here in the US.

 

How old are you? If you feel like you've owned border collies throughout your life, but got your first one in June 2005, you must be fairly young. We have a number of young members on the Boards, so don't be concerned that you won't be taken seriously if you are young.

 

Also, you might want to tell us a little bit about what your experience has been with dogs in general, and with border collies in particular, so we won't make any unwarranted assumptions.

 

I think that most dog-lovers start out thinking they will breed dogs, just because, well, because they love them and want to know and experience everything about them. But the more you learn, the more you come to realize that that may not be the right goal, for a variety of reasons. Sometimes it's hard to let go of that dream, but it's at least good to keep an open mind on the subject while you're learning.

 

ETA: Thanks, Janba, for that informative post. I know that the situation regarding show and working dogs is very different in Australia than what it is here, and I accept that it's no longer really relevant to talk about preserving working ability in the ANKA Border Collie.

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All the posts about properly breeding BCs & why have been a balm to my soul today. The advanced obediance class I take Georgia to is run by someone who loves the AKC. Also, 90% if the dogs in the class are AKC registered. I live in a very remote area so there really isn't much to choose from in the way of classes. I take Georgia to learn, of course. But also for the socialization. Last night the instructor went on and on and ON about the AKC and points off for this and points off for that (Georgia will never be in an AKC competetion). Well, I blew my top. I think she intentionally pushed my buttons because it's never been a secret that I don't like the AKC & why.

 

I can't remember where I saw it but the phrase "Until there are none, rescue one" says it all for me.

 

Thank you.

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I can't remember where I saw it but the phrase "Until there are none, rescue one" says it all for me.
Finally, touching on your comment about crossing show and working lines to produce a hybrid that can "do anything." Please recall that before there were show lines, it was the dog bred for work only that could "do anything." These dogs were not bred to go, go, go. They were bred to be intense in work, yes, but also have a great deal of patience when taught right, impulse control, wise dogs who were companions as well as working partners to their masters. That balance of personality is still vital to the work we do.

 

If you breed a dog without regard to the work, you will lose that balance. You may end up with a dog with the intensity of the working side, but without the impulse control (the show side does not have this built in as lowered drive does not require it). You may end up with a dog that is highly sensitive to pressure, yet doesn't have enough desire to please to guide his instincts to run or snap at what bothers him.

Maybe I'm just wired different than the general public (my friends would say "duh!"), but where Border Collies are concerned I'd rather have a rescue. There are some breeds I would want a really young puppy, but a BC? No way. I want someone who knows the breed inside and out to judge the dog's temperament and make sure I don't end up with one that needs to be herding sheep to be happy. And I would suspect that trying to temperament test an 8 week old puppy would take years and years of experience to be able to place that pup in just the right home.

I know people here are more focused on the needs of the breed (quite right, too), but I will add that from a companion pet owner's viewpoint....having a dog that needs to 'go, go, go' can be stressful for the owner, too.

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Maybe I'm just wired different than the general public (my friends would say "duh!"), but where Border Collies are concerned I'd rather have a rescue. There are some breeds I would want a really young puppy, but a BC? No way. I want someone who knows the breed inside and out to judge the dog's temperament and make sure I don't end up with one that needs to be herding sheep to be happy. And I would suspect that trying to temperament test an 8 week old puppy would take years and years of experience to be able to place that pup in just the right home.

I know people here are more focused on the needs of the breed (quite right, too), but I will add that from a companion pet owner's viewpoint....having a dog that needs to 'go, go, go' can be stressful for the owner, too.

 

You know, my better working dog, Violet, is the easier of my two to live with. :D She's a funny little dog. I tell people she has a secret identity - at home, she is Shrinking Violet, a quiet, pleasant little girl who you hardly realize is around. But when she sees sheep, she transforms into UltraViolet, she-whom-sheep-must-obey. :rolleyes:

 

I think that's because the good working dogs have an off-switch. You can't constantly charge around like a maniac and expect to control your stock. But I've heard that the sport-bred dogs have lost the off-switch and are often the "go-go-go" types.

 

Which is why the OP is advised against trying to use sport lines in her future breeding program.

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You know, my better working dog, Violet, is the easier of my two to live with. :D She's a funny little dog. I tell people she has a secret identity - at home, she is Shrinking Violet, a quiet, pleasant little girl who you hardly realize is around. But when she sees sheep, she transforms into UltraViolet, she-whom-sheep-must-obey. :rolleyes:

 

 

Manse is the exact same way. I home, I hardly ever see her. She's usually sleeping under the bed or in a crate in my truck, but when it comes time to work sheep, she's there and ready to go! If I can't find her outside, all I have to do is shout "walk up" and she appears out of nowhere thinking that we're going to work sheep.

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