kelpiegirl Posted January 9, 2008 Report Share Posted January 9, 2008 So, since I was NOT ABLE To work sheep this weekend due to freakin' snow, I was home and watched a many times over repeat of breed all about it on german shepherds. The first part was an interview with Ulf Kinsel and his GSD's. Nice looking, GSD's- very fit, and well, not american bred Anyway, two things that were said, that I never noticed pre-sheepherding myself. The first was that stock stick that he uses. The narrator said that the purpose of that stick is to use it to remind the dog to be good, if not, you throw it at the dog, and then, when you work the dog on sheep, and the dog sees the stick, he will behave . Then, the part about gripping came up, where Ulf was interviewed, and he said that yes, sometimes the dog has to grip, which was fine, but then he went on to say, that since that's the case, we file their teeth down, so that they can't hold on.. :D Of all the things that could be said, neither of these things would have been top on my list to talk about..... OY VEY. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dixie_Girl Posted January 9, 2008 Report Share Posted January 9, 2008 Well, good grief! I guess next they will cure biting dogs by removing all their "biting" teeth and just leave the molars for chewing! I don't get the throwing the stick at the dog. For one thing, things happen mighty fast, sheep can and do, get in the way, and jeeze, even a major league pitcher couldn't hit a dog that was on the move! Kinda strange, to say the least. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurae Posted January 9, 2008 Report Share Posted January 9, 2008 Throwing stock sticks is a widespread practice. I understand why people do it, but I have a very hard time with anyone throwing anything at my dog. When I was new to working stock, my former trainer threw Sophie's leash at her to keep her off the stock. He didn't mean to hit her, but the leash clip strick her in the face, and she went into an immediate seizure right there on the field. It was as awful as it sounds. Since then, I've tried to be vigilant about what I will allow people to do to Taz. When I tell the story to anyone working with us, people are always aghast, but when Taz was younger, one subsequent trainer and one big hat clinician still threw a stock stick at him. Or rather in his general direction. It's pervasive Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelpiegirl Posted January 9, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 9, 2008 It's not that it is done (the throwing), it is that this person states that the reason for the stick is for throwing. Sticks were derived from crooks, which aided the shepherd in grabbing sheep. So, instead of saying that the stick was there to remind the dog to be good, or it would feel the stick, he could have said, what I just said. It is a very broad/general audience, and it just strikes me as a bad thing to go touting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurae Posted January 9, 2008 Report Share Posted January 9, 2008 Oh, yeah. Agreed. I was just venting, I guess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1sheepdoggal Posted January 9, 2008 Report Share Posted January 9, 2008 I worked with a trainer once who threw his stick at one of my dogs, hit him dead square in the face, and bloodied his nose and mouth. Needless to say, the dog left the field, (I didnt blame him) left the stock, which he had never done, and wouldnt come back on the field with the trainer. After that, it was very difficult to get this dog to work with or for anyone but me. Trust for strangers was completly shattered. Anymore, I too am very cautious about who handles my dogs. As for the GSD's, they arent a true "herding dog," as we think of one. Moreover in thier native country, they are used as what would be described as a living fence. Sheep are turned out in a patch of grass, and the dog is required to patrol the given area, keeping sheep in and predators out. The shepherds have a lead ewe, that the other sheep follow, and that sheep is taught to follow the shepherd, (person, not the dog) and the dog just follows with the herd when moved from one place to another. They are also required to protect the shepherd, from those that would do him/her harm, so alot of them are also trained to some degree in personal protection. Though I have seen a few that can do a pretty decent job accually doing stock work, I agree, that the European dogs do have alot more grip in them. Though filing down the teeth, I just cant imagine. Sometimes I think the Germans have some pretty misguided and harsh ideas about working dogs. There are a few good DVD"s out, you can find them through Leerburg.com that have a DVD on HGH Championships, interesting to watch, and several others with Karl Fuller and Lynn Leach. The one by Leach, is very interesting, as it has 19 different breeds of dogs, Strong eyed dogs such as the BC and loose eyed dogs such as the rottie, and cattle dogs. Pretty good DVD. This isnt a DVD about the tending styles. This pertains to the training of dogs to gather and move sheep. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenajo Posted January 9, 2008 Report Share Posted January 9, 2008 Ulf is as far from good herding to a true German shepherd (the human version) as some of these "other breed specialists" trainers are from Johnny Wilson. Â don't believe everything you hear, and definately not everything you see on TV! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jenfitzh20 Posted January 9, 2008 Report Share Posted January 9, 2008 "we file their teeth down, so that they can't hold on.." Â We have gotten a few rescue BCs in that have had this done. Theres a distinct difference between worn teeth from chewing on chains (or whatever) and teeth that have been filed or cut down. Â Â Jennifer MKBCR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1sheepdoggal Posted January 9, 2008 Report Share Posted January 9, 2008 Ulf is as far from good herding to a true German shepherd (the human version) as some of these "other breed specialists" trainers are from Johnny Wilson  My feelings exactly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bcnewe2 Posted January 9, 2008 Report Share Posted January 9, 2008 We have gotten a few rescue BCs in that have had this done. There’s a distinct difference between worn teeth from chewing on chains (or whatever) and teeth that have been filed or cut down.  Can you expound on that? I have 2 senior dogs (one owned by my daughter) who were avid frisbee and ball fetchers in their youth. They both now have canines that look like they have been filed down to more than flat. I know they never had their teeth filed but people have asked why we chose to file their teeth. So how do you tell the difference? I also find it a bit hard to believe that somebody who would give up a dog to rescue, not a person who is trying to do what's best for their dog where their own circumstances have made owning a dog no longer possible, but the average Joe who decides he no longer wants his dog so gives it up, not the type person who would have bothered to file teeth for some unknown behavior.  Have you had rescue turn ins that tell you they've filed the teeth?  I've seen the breed all about it with the GSD. I was astounded that the trainer said they do that. I couldn't imagine what type dog would be a good working dog that had to have it's teeth filed. I chalked it off to just one more wanna be stockdog trainer.  Just curious Kristen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenajo Posted January 9, 2008 Report Share Posted January 9, 2008 Filing a dogs teeth down would be incredibly painful, and unless you could find a vet unethical enough to do it under anesthesia, or someone could manage to hold the dog in some version of the WWE Texas Headlock while another person managed to do it without getting bitten or cutting the dogs tongue off....... it's very unlikely that it has been done. Â Most dogs just wear their teeth down. Bad diet, bad play styles (relentless chewing or sandy tennis balls), and bad genetics are usually a combination of culprits. Â Intesting consideration is that lead poisoning causes very weak teeth that wear away. And lots of cheap tennis balls are made in China.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ItsADogsLyfe Posted January 9, 2008 Report Share Posted January 9, 2008 Most dogs just wear their teeth down. Bad diet, bad play styles (relentless chewing or sandy tennis balls), and bad genetics are usually a combination of culprits. Â My Reign has worn his teeth down. In fact they were worn almost totally down by the time he was 2 years old. He doesn't really chew on stuff per se, but he does like to catch frisbees. He doesn't play with tennis balls and the only other toys he really likes are soccer or basketballs which he rolls around the yard with his nose. His diet is good so I tend to think its genetics and catching the frisbee that has done it. And I don't even play with him with it that often! But they do look filed. I had a GSD that was from imported parents. All working (schutzhund) bred. He was about 6 or 7 when I started working Border Collies. One day he jumped the fence into the area I was working the sheep in with two very young, green Border Collies none of which I had great control over yet. I worried he would bite the sheep, but instead he worked them very nicely. When they got on the fence he went between the fence and sheep and pushed them off with his nose and shoulder, not his teeth. I never really worked him much on sheep, but the few times I put him in he showed quite a bit of natural ability. He was a very game dog and had a lot of presence about him. I can't imagine having a work dog that required filing the teeth so they didn't hurt the stock. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1sheepdoggal Posted January 9, 2008 Report Share Posted January 9, 2008 Filing a dogs teeth down would be incredibly painful, and unless you could find a vet unethical enough to do it under anesthesia, or someone could manage to hold the dog in some version of the WWE Texas Headlock while another person managed to do it without getting bitten or cutting the dogs tongue off....... it's very unlikely that it has been done  I found one. Ever heard of declawing a dog? Where the vet pulls the whole nail from the dogs foot? ( owners reason...dog dug up the yard)Pretty painful, and the recovery period pretty long. I briefly worked for a vet, (grooming in the clinic) that did a lot of unethical things. Pulling canines from pet Bob cats and racoons that folks owned but didnt have the proper paper work to have, fixing fractured legs on deer, without letting fish and game know he had the animal in his care. All kinds of unethical things, that led me to leave his establishment at a quick pace, as soon as I started to see these things. Had I not been so young, I would have reported him, but didnt know at the time, what corse of action to take, only that I didnt agree with what he was doing, and had to get away from there. The dog that he declawed, was there for a month that I knew of, and still there, hardly able to stand when I left. I hated him for that, you should have seen that poor springer spaniel! Talk about unethical! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jenfitzh20 Posted January 9, 2008 Report Share Posted January 9, 2008 I have a male that was a tennis ball chewer (no more). His cannines are stubs, I know all about worn teeth. Â We got a dog in couple of years ago, he was around a year old. Of course we can't prove anything but the way the teeth were, it was very even and clean, no rounding, just straight across, not the first time I've seen it but usually it was on an older dog so I just wrote it off as wear. Even our vet didn't think it was just wear from chewing. Didn't look like any other worn teeth I've ever seen and I've seen a lot. Â We've gotten dogs in rescue that someone has tried to train as a stockdogs. Give them a command, usually you have to play around to find out what commands they use, and they actually do it...consistently. Just because a dog is in rescue doesn't mean its never had any training, just means that someone no longer had use for it or the dog didn't "cut it". These dogs generally come from the Ozarks. Â Can't convince me that someone can't/wouldn't do something to a dog that would seem impossible or too painful. They can and do. Â Jennifer MKBCR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenajo Posted January 9, 2008 Report Share Posted January 9, 2008 They might "do the impossible" occassionally, and you might find a vet who's crazy as well...but these are typically rarities. Most often, the dog just chewed his teeth down...and equally, most vets are decent people who genuinely like animals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz P Posted January 9, 2008 Report Share Posted January 9, 2008 All 4 of my 9 yr old BC's canines have been half their usual size, worn off straight across like they were cut or filed, since he was 8 months old and decided that chewing on our brick fireplace would be fun. I have other BCs with teeth broken during play that look like they might have been filed off. I have heard of people filing teeth but think in the majority of cases BCs manage to break their teeth all on their own. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted January 9, 2008 Report Share Posted January 9, 2008 Grinding the canine teeth down is done by some vets in very rare circumstances, but they don't just file them and leave them. Its done sort of like a root canal with the teeth drilled and filled. When its done, its usually with a dog that has a history of biting and the owners have chosen it as a last resort in order to keep the pet in their home. (Lawsuits and loss of homeowners insurance are big factors in leading owners to choose this option). If the teeth 'look' ground, its probably from natural wear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GOOSEDOGS Posted January 9, 2008 Report Share Posted January 9, 2008 I met an Irish guy that said his father owned a farm and if the dogs got to rough, he filed or snapped their canines!! I can't imagine how that hurt and the exposed nerve must have been hell. Joan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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