Barkbark barking

[pammyd]

Right I have had Ben at obidence classes since he was 3 months old and foundation agility since he was 5 months old

 

After lots of looking round and pleading emails I have finally found a OK sounding agility club that will take Ben Jan (all the others were at least waiting list till 2009!)

 

But I really want to break Ben of his bugging little habbit

 

In the house he is fine - will give a couple of barks when someone comes to the door, if my phone rings or when I am getting ready to take him out - all OK - not bugging at all - I can sleep, watch tv or surf the web and he just chills out

 

But in classes its a different matter

When we started the woman said just to ignore the barking dogs and they would get better - all the other dogs in the class did - not Ben he BARKS the full time

 

He is so excited - but really good when its his turn to do stuff - and does things I think no chance (like last week someone else held him and I had to leave the room and ask him to sit where he couldnt see me - no problem, today recal STOP sit - never practised and hedid that too)

 

On the rare occasion when he shuts up at agility he has watched the dogs and seems to have learnt from them - but that is v rare

 

I have tried ignoring him

fussing him when he is good

Distracting him and making him do stuff and then rewarding that (which works when I focus 100% on him - but I would like to listen to what we are supposed to be doing and have a chilled out pup at my feet!!)

I have taken kongs and chews but he can still bark with his mouth full and it only works for a min or so

 

For a while every time he barked I got him to lie down - but now he barks, lies down and then barks again with no commands from me (I did think that he didnt know that he was barking but this makes me think that he does)

 

As far as I can tell he isnt barking because he wants anything - just cos he cant help it - he dosent care if you pay attention or ignore him - he is not barking at me or anything else - just at the room in general

 

Trainer suggests training disks? not sure - I know its not punishment but it kinda feels like it too me

 

Any ideas?? I dont want him kicked out of this club cos its the only one!!!

[Rosanne]

When my dogs bark, I yell at them. It's worked so far.

 

Also if he is excitement barking removing him from the situation until he stops barking should help. Once he shuts up, bring him back. He barks take him away again. He should begin to get the idea.

 

Barking is a pet peeve of mine and I won't tolerate it from my own dogs. Then again if they've learned it, it can be a very difficult habit to break. I get after them as little pups so they have it set in their mind by the time they're grown that it's NOT OK.

 

Corrections will NOT hurt a dog! Many people don't ever correct their dog, and then when they finally do yell at it, the dog can't handle the stress and shuts down. If you start corrections early and teach the dog what they mean, they will learn that a "No" is not the end of the world. You wouldn't ignore a shouting carrying on little child would you?

[pammyd]

Oh dont get me wrong I am not against corrections! When needed I have told Ben off - he is v soft and only needs told once then remembers not to do things (like eat my books)

 

I was more wanting to teach him that quiet is the right thing to do - my BF yells at him when he barks and he just barks back 'fun humans are barking' kinda thing

 

Have tried taking him out - he just keeps barking! and is even more excited when we come back in

 

I make big fuss of him when he is quiet for a moment but that does not last long

Ignoring him does not work cos he dosent want my attention

Even holding his jaws shut he does not get the idea (either gently saying shhhh or more angry grrrrr!)

 

The mad thing is the instructor was asking if he was bad in the house - nope vv quiet - the neighbours didnt know I had a dog

And that makes it really difficult to teach a speak command cos in a controlled situation it is hard to make him speak (and most of the time I live on my own so getting someone to knock on the door wouldnt happen often enough to get him to bark)

 

Also I have tried lots of excersise before class, none and a wee bit - he is a bit worse with no exercise but the difference is minimal (dont think it is possible to tire out the wee guy - 4 hour walks THEN he gets the zoomies!)(note I dont walk him 4 hours every day - I am not mad!!)

 

And also I have noticed that if I spend a lot of time in the beginning of class getting him to focus and do sits and stuff then towards the end of the class his concentration is shot and he cant even do a basic stay

 

Its frustaiting because in all other things he really is a perfect dog - so much better than I ever expected - even the vet commented that he is old beyond his years

[Shetlander]

I would strongly suggest Susan Garrett's book Shaping Success and another book (blanking on the author) Control Unleashed. Shaping Success was Quinn's puppy rearing bible and has lots of great info on working with a dog when he is in high drive. I haven't read Control Unleashed but have heard great things about it.

 

I think you're on the right track with trying to distract him and moving away from the excitement. My guess would be that you're moving too fast back towards the class and that's why he goes ape. You really need to break things down into small steps and make sure you're successful (at least 80%) at each one before moving to the next.

 

I don't remember how old Ben is, but he still may have some maturing to do before he can focus on you for the entire time of a class. I would really work on alternate behaviors away from class, then if you need to work out in the parking lot for a couple of classes work those behaviors there.

 

What rewards are you using for Ben when he is doing alternate behaviors? Are you giving him the highest possible reinforcers? When I first started taking Quinn to class in a barn I had to up the value of the treats I used. The previously great ones meant nothing to him compared to all the fabulous smells he could go investigate. I also had him skip dinner so he was extra hungry for the extra good treats (he ate dinner on the ride home).

[Lenajo]

If he's soft, it's too your advantage. I'd scare the daylights out of one of mine if he went on and on like that. I just can't stand the noise, period, and I won't tolerate it.

 

If that's not your way, then something like a yogurt muzzle helps. Get an empty yogurt cup, stick some peanut butter in the end, and pop it on his nose. a head halter like the "halti" which can shut the mouth is helpful as well.

 

I've also been known to carry a water pistol loaded with listerine mouth wash. An open yapping mouth is apt to get rinsed. Makes for fresh breath, and quiet dogs.

 

A big question here is why he is barking. Is what you are asking fair? Some dogs do better in private lessons until you get some control of them.

[pammyd]

Thanks guys

Ben is almost 9 months old

haha i like the idea of the mouthwash haha might try that - been trying to be a bit firmer with him but he was pretty good in the last class

I think that was because there was less dogs there

He is just barking when we are sitting listning or waiting our turn - when he is actually getting to do stuff he focuses great and is one of the best in the class (the trainer was well impressed wed night when I sent him from one end of the room, round a cone and back to me!)

 

Treats are as high reward as I can get - supermarket here do meat offcuts sso its a big mixed bag of all types of cooked meat (so he does not know what he is getting next) also have some regular treats and some kibble (which is going to be higher value to him now he is on raw)

 

Guess I will just keep on - I keep forgetting that he is still young and 1 hour is a long time for a little guy (and the agility is outside so the barking will be less distracting - and its max 6 dogs so hopefully he will be less compelled to make himself heard)

[Alaska]

Have tried taking him out - he just keeps barking!

You're missing the point. You having to take him far enough away that he stops barking.

 

Control Unleashed is really worth reading. At the core of that program is the idea of the dog needing to be below threshold in order to learn. You need to start by getting Ben below threshold, which means getting him far enough from the action that it's no longer stimulating him. From that distance, you can work on building up his tolerance so he can get closer and closer without flipping over into barking frenzy, but this does not happen overnight.

 

At 9 months, I would be giving Ben a break from participating in agility class and just work on the self control stuff for a bit. Ask the people who run the class if you and Ben can work on this nearby (without actually taking the class). He can join the class when he has learned to control his excitement. This is exactly what Susan Garrett describes doing with her dog in Shaping Success, and I agree that would be an excellent book for you to read. I go back to both of these books periodically (while most of the rest get read once and sit on the shelf for ever after).

 

A single private lesson might be a good investment. I have a dog who gets worked up very quickly doing agility. Recently, I asked an instructor to work with him so I could see how she reacted when he went over threshold (barkybarkybarkybark). Watching what she did and how he responded to it (puzzled silence) put me on the right track with him. I wouldn't have learned near as much if she'd just watched and made comments as I demonstrated all the strategies I'd come up with that didn't work to to get him calmed back down.

 

BTW, I have to say I'm a little surprised at the posts that suggest yelling at a young dog (or child), who is making a racket. I will yell at a dog if I need to interrupt something bad that is about to occur (dog running into the street or about to grab a steak off the counter) -- i.e. I sometimes use yelling as a management tool -- but I don't find it to be a very powerful training tool.

 

Postscript: I'd like to offer one bit of unsolicited advice, and that is to spend less time marvelling over how much better your dog does than the other dogs in his class, and instead put more emphasis on setting and measuring progress towards your own goals. If you've got a talented dog, you want to see how far the two of you can get, not just focus on outshining the rest of the class. That's my 2 cents anyway.

[Rosanne]

I don't yell at my dogs constantly. Please don't get that impression. I just see far too many people so obsessed with finding the "positive" way to get their dogs to be quiet. . . .

Barking is a self-reincorcing behavior. The dog barks, he likes it, so he barks some more. As Lenajo said, this is something I simply won't tolerate in my own dogs. I also don't tolerate it when I teach; if a dog barks like that I ask that they be left in the car when it's not their turn.

My dogs are allowed to bark only if they are alarm barking AT something/someone. No recreational barking or mindless excitement barking. This does matter - the field where I train has had neighbors complain about barking dogs and the township will be upset if he starts complaining to them. I'm sure this is true in more than my one circumstance. Barking dogs are nuisances to others, not just their owners.

 

The way I correct my dogs goes like this (I would definitely invest in a head halter, by the way, for a barky dog)

Dog barks. I say something quiet like "hey" and pull gently on the head halter to turn the dog's head towards me.

If the dog quiets down and looks at me - even if it's only because I'm holding the halter, I praise and/or give treat.

If the dog continues to bark, I will growl "Hey" a bit meaner, and walk backwards firmly.

If the dog quiest down as above, I praise as above.

If the dog continues to bark and act out, I growl, glare (use body language! act mad!), and firmly walk the hell away until the dog settles. When they do, it's praise, treat, and take a few steps closer, until you find the "line" of distance where your dog can stay quiet.

 

You have to make barking something he doesn't want to do. You'll probably need to combine associating negative consequences (verbal correction + walking away) for barking and positive ones for shutting up.

That said, some dogs just have hard time focusing in a class when they are starting out. It might be a good idea to get a few privates to get started, then try again in the class once the dog gets the idea they are there to work with you, not watch.

I also don't tend to let my dogs watch other dogs at all (except when walking past rings at trials, etc).

 

 

ETA: At 9 months my dogs barely know Sit, Down and Stay, so don't rush anything. . .

And I absolutely do believe in correcting dogs who being selfish and inconsiderate by screaming till my ears fall off. I'm in charge, after all. I also yell at them for getting into the trash, chewing things they shouldn't, etc.

If dogs don't learn how to take a correction, they are difficult to train, usually becoming either obstinate or softer than they need to be. I take care to teach my dogs that a correction means "Stop doing that right now!" but it also means "try something else and you will be praised"

[pammyd]

You're missing the point. You having to take him far enough away that he stops barking.

 

 

 

Postscript: I'd like to offer one bit of unsolicited advice, and that is to spend less time marvelling over how much better your dog does than the other dogs in his class, and instead put more emphasis on setting and measuring progress towards your own goals. If you've got a talented dog, you want to see how far the two of you can get, not just focus on outshining the rest of the class. That's my 2 cents anyway.

 

Ah sorry I am explaining myself badly - never was much good at english!

At the moment this is his puppy obedience class - its in a wee hall - not the agility yet! - and the puppy agility thing finished a few weeks ago

When I take him out of the room - or do anything at all he shuts up totaly - its only when we are sitting down listning that he is barking

He dosent think that taking him out of the room is a bad thing (he is happy to be just doing anything with me)

It looks like he is saying something like - why want we just play with the other dogs while you people are talking (well I think that something like what he is thinking) so when I take him out - great we are doing something

 

I didnt mean that I am sitting marvelling at how great he is all I ment is that he is not so hyped up that he has no focus - he can do things way better than I expected - when he is working he will ignore the other dogs and focus 99% on the job in hand

I know compared to the collie pup in the class he is not talented - when we swap dogs and get the other dogs to do stuff I can see how switched on these guys are - I am just lucky cos Ben is happy when he is pleasing me - so he works extra hard to try and figure out what it is that I am asking him to do (hence it is my fault that he is barking because I have not figured out how to tell him that I dont want him to bark)

 

Guess santa will have some books for me this year

[Shetlander]

You have to make barking something he doesn't want to do. You'll probably need to combine associating negative consequences (verbal correction + walking away) for barking and positive ones for shutting up.

 

My sheltie was the mother of all recreational barkers (in the backyard -- at classes and shows, she was always perfectly behaved). Positive punishment barely made the slightest dent in her nuisance barking. Positive reinforcement (she is food crazed) and negative punishment (making her come inside) were what totally reformed her into the absolute quietest dog of my current three. I'm embarrassed it took me so long to figure this out and that I wasted so much time yelling at her and even using a no bark collar to no avail. While the time outs were necessary because barking is so self-reinforcing, the most important aspect of her reform was the positive reinforcement. The time outs kept her from finding her own rewards in barking. Tidbits (often just a piece of kibble) made other behaviors (coming to me, staying by my side) much more rewarding and appealing than barking.

[herdcentral]

I have a cattle dog who gets very barky at agility especially when I am running my BC. I take my crate with me and position it where she cant see me or my BC when we are working and pop her in there untill it is her turn. Works well much to the relief of everyones ears! She seems to chill out when she cant see the action!

 

There is also a kelpie in class who is also very barky but she is barking from anxiety and over stimulation and she needs to be worked away from the rest of the class at the moment.

[Alaska]

Good posts all. Roseanne, I especially appreciate your detailed explanation of what you actually do. I was picturing something much less productive, like this:

 

Dog: Bark!

Human: Shut up!

Dog: Bark bark bark!

Human: SHUT UP!

Dog (thinking "Hey, this is fun!"): Bark bark barkety bark bark bark! BARK!

Human: DOGGONE IT I SAID SHUT UP!

etc.

 

So, pammyd, combining what Roseanne said and what herdcentral said, and responding to your clarification, you might think about other ways to "remove" Ben from the room, specifically by returning him to a crate from which he cannot watch other dogs when it is not his turn. When I started this dog sports stuff, I was coming in from the great outdoors where my dog and I were constant companions all the day long and I couldn't see why anyone would stuff their dog in a crate simply because the dog wasn't working. Over time I came to see that getting to zone out in the crate when he's not working can really help a dog. What herdentral described is just one example of this concept. As another example, anxious dogs who worry about what other dogs near them are doing may appreciate being able to retreat to the safety of their crate between runs. One way or another you want to teach Ben not to bark when other dogs are working, and one way is to teach him that when he is not working he goes and rests in his crate (with a sheet or something draped over it so he can't see out).

 

The other point that everybody seems to be making in various ways is that not all barking is the same. Different people have different rules about what kind of barking they accept from their dogs, and they have different ways to get the dog to stop different kinds of barking. There's recreational barking, barking out of excitement, barking from frustration (especially in young, inexperienced dogs), alarm barking, etc. It does help to think a bit about why the dog might be barking in a particular situation, which you are doing, before deciding on how you will teach him to stop. You say you think he might not understand why you aren't playing with the other dogs. Many young dogs need to learn that playing with other dogs is not something that happens at agility. If you return him to his crate when it's not his turn, he learns that agility is about playing with you and what the other dogs are doing is irrelevant, and maaaaaybe the barking will stop on its own.

 

BTW, if Santa is willing to shell out for a DVD, you might think about asking for Susan Garrett's new Crate Games, available here.

[Rosanne]

Good posts all. Roseanne, I especially appreciate your detailed explanation of what you actually do. I was picturing something much less productive, like this:

 

Dog: Bark!

Human: Shut up!

Dog: Bark bark bark!

Human: SHUT UP!

Dog (thinking "Hey, this is fun!"): Bark bark barkety bark bark bark! BARK!

Human: DOGGONE IT I SAID SHUT UP!

etc.

 

I was kind of worried that that was how I had come across. I mention yelling or growling because simply walking away usually isn't enough. The dog needs to know that "Mom" is NOT happy with the behavior, and that's WHY the dog is walking out.

My dogs also would happily walk around with me, but I lean/glare/growl ANd remove them from the situation when they bark and they get the hint.

 

Of course, for all the amazing training the in the world, it should be noted that not even Susan Garrett was able to get Buzz to completely stop barking at trials!

Some dogs are just incorrigible!

[Lenajo]

I was kind of worried that that was how I had come across. I mention yelling or growling because simply walking away usually isn't enough. The dog needs to know that "Mom" is NOT happy with the behavior, and that's WHY the dog is walking out.

My dogs also would happily walk around with me, but I lean/glare/growl ANd remove them from the situation when they bark and they get the hint.

 

Of course, for all the amazing training the in the world, it should be noted that not even Susan Garrett was able to get Buzz to completely stop barking at trials!

Some dogs are just incorrigible!

 

 

And some owners are unwilling to discipline as needed to get the point accross. They excuse this and that, lament that they could "never be that mean".

 

I can't figure out how making a dog be polite suddenly got "mean".

 

Students tell me all the time their dogs can't be quiet (waiting around the sheep lessons, etc.) and I find that the problem is at the human end of the leash, not the dog's.

 

Taking a dog out of the situation can be a helpful training technique but you can't always do that. Sort of like a parent can't always leave the grocery store because Little Johnny is having a blow out. Sometimes you have to correct and move on. Kids...and dogs....do learn from that. Sometimes they learn even more than if you remove them from the situations.

 

It's a grey area as always. If what you are asking the dog is fair (for his age, experience level, and training) then enforcement only enhances. A good smart "HEY" with a pop of the leash can go a long way.

[bc4pack]

Here it is:

 

 

CONTROL UNLEASHED !!!!!!!!!!!!

The book was written for you and your dog.

There is also a CU Yahoo Group.

[Gemmy4ever]

You having a little problem? Well, my dog doesn't bark much, but she's an outside dog and she sometimes barks for attention. (She wants someone to come out and play with her) I just- yell. I say, "No!" very sharply and she stops. It works most of the time. Try it with your dog.

[rainbowbridgecanw8t]

I highly recommend Andrea Dugan's workbook, Holistic Dog Training, The Foundation.

She is coming here to teach a seminar in Feb, and I am SO excited. She helped me work with Frodo's barking, by teaching him eye contact and focus.

If you are interested, she gave me permission to print the book, and we sell it for $20. Proceeds go to Hull's Haven Border Collie Rescue

www.hullshaven.org

[texas girl]

Right I have had Ben at obidence classes since he was 3 months old and foundation agility since he was 5 months old

 

After lots of looking round and pleading emails I have finally found a OK sounding agility club that will take Ben Jan (all the others were at least waiting list till 2009!)

 

But I really want to break Ben of his bugging little habbit

 

In the house he is fine - will give a couple of barks when someone comes to the door, if my phone rings or when I am getting ready to take him out - all OK - not bugging at all - I can sleep, watch tv or surf the web and he just chills out

 

But in classes its a different matter

When we started the woman said just to ignore the barking dogs and they would get better - all the other dogs in the class did - not Ben he BARKS the full time

 

He is so excited - but really good when its his turn to do stuff - and does things I think no chance (like last week someone else held him and I had to leave the room and ask him to sit where he couldnt see me - no problem, today recal STOP sit - never practised and hedid that too)

 

On the rare occasion when he shuts up at agility he has watched the dogs and seems to have learnt from them - but that is v rare

 

I have tried ignoring him

fussing him when he is good

Distracting him and making him do stuff and then rewarding that (which works when I focus 100% on him - but I would like to listen to what we are supposed to be doing and have a chilled out pup at my feet!!)

I have taken kongs and chews but he can still bark with his mouth full and it only works for a min or so

 

For a while every time he barked I got him to lie down - but now he barks, lies down and then barks again with no commands from me (I did think that he didnt know that he was barking but this makes me think that he does)

 

As far as I can tell he isnt barking because he wants anything - just cos he cant help it - he dosent care if you pay attention or ignore him - he is not barking at me or anything else - just at the room in general

 

Trainer suggests training disks? not sure - I know its not punishment but it kinda feels like it too me

 

Any ideas?? I dont want him kicked out of this club cos its the only one!!!

when i had my dog in obedence class for theraphy dog

my dog always barked and barked due to excitement of being around other dogs. the trainer had us use a choke collor for training.

sec dog bark jerk leash and say no when quit releash choke.repeat as often as needed.once dog understands this just a no is all needed

once trained.

as sooon asdogbark

[Bo Peep]

Well, I adopted a barker. I've been trying this on my own way with little success. Buying a book, doesn't work fast enough for me LOL. She barks on 2 occasions- doorbells......even on TV. Won't stop- I finally am teaching her the "leave it" command which she takes quite well. She does have to get that last "woof" in after I call it quits. Then she does the excited bark- tennis ball, playing with Usher and frisbee. That one is a little harder as she is further away. I started taking a step or two or three towards her until she stopped barking with a "NO SPEAK" command. Apparently, she was taught "speak". I'm learning more about her every day. Luckily, neither go outside unsupervised, so no complaints yet. I'm still learning as I have never had a "barker" before.