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Lately Gypsy has developed a somewhat annoying habit. When we are at the dog park, she has taken to chasing after other dogs and nipping their hocks, backs and grabbing their tails. It's usually when another dog is running past her, she LOVES chasing and up till just recently, everything was fine as she'd just chase the other dogs around. Now however, she'll focus in on one dog and as it's running she'll go after it's tail, legs, back... anything she can get her teeth on really.

 

I know they're just dogs and they're just playing, but this to me seems like she's being rude and not respecting the other dogs. Also I know she'd never actually hurt another dog, but I'm sure to other owners it looks like she's about to devour their precious little beagles. Even a lab owner commented today that she bit her dog's tail, so I had to explain it's something I'm working on with her (or trying to) and it's just playing to Gypsy. I don't want her to do it to some dog that doesn't *appreciate* this type of play and goes after her for it.

 

She will leave the other dog and come to me as soon as I call her, even in mid-chase/bite. I have tried a firm "NO" and "QUIT", but unless I actually call her, it doesn't really have an effect on her. It's either chase-and-bite or run straight to me. And unless the dogs are playing within a few feet of where I'm walking (which is rare) I can't use my body language to stop her.

 

When she's at home, she plays with Milford (rottie x) like this and worse. She'll bite his hocks or tail when he's standing still to get him to play, which I discourage whenever I see it but it's hard since she spends time outside with Millie when I am not there to constantly supervise and correct her. He's just her big buddy though, and bitey face is their favourite game so he finds the nips as an invitation to start playing. She'll also run around the back yard hanging onto his tail.. which is an interesting sight but I'd really prefer if she'd stop the tail/hock grabbing altogether.

 

If there are any suggestions on how I can control this behaviour a bit better, I'd love to hear them.

 

Thanks in advance,

Lisa

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The one on one play with the rottieX sounds acceptable.

 

The dog park stuff is not. For things like this I like to use Jean Donaldson's 3 strikes game. Basically you warn verbally (my #1 warning for example would be "watch it", and #2 warning is "you're gonna blow it") and the strike 3 equals "Too bad!" and being body blocked from the fun and/or removed from the park for a time out. With a smart dog this takes only a few reps and they get the pattern very clearly.

 

You can also make it even simpler....that is how does she respond to "NO" when she's doing these things?

 

Also I do *not* encourage the use of dog parks for primary exercise. Perhaps a long brisk walk before the park play time would be in order - and keep the mischief at bay!

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Lisa, thanks for bringing this up. My dog does this as well. I have only been correcting it when the 'victim' dog becomes uncomfortable (some seem to think it is a part of some fun zoomie game). If they tell her off and she ignores them, I give her a quick verbal warning. If she ignores me, she goes on a leash for a time-out and fun is over. I guess I always felt that letting the other dog deal with it first gave Mollie (an older puppy now) a chance to learn doggie language. Lenajo, would you correct it no matter what the other dog's response is??? Just curious...

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When she's chasing and I say "NO", most of the time it's a complete blow off. Occasionally it will have the desired effect and she'll look at me and then either come over to me (where I praise her) or else go play with another dog - a reward in itself. I give her a couple seconds to see if she's going to listen, and if not I'll call her off the other dog. Usually I'll make her heel offleash with me for a bit right afterwards - work on turning and stopping for a couple minutes - and then once she's focused on me again, I'll release her to go play and she'll play nice again for a while.. Until another dog goes tearing past and she decides it'd be fun to go bite it's tail. :rolleyes: Then we do it over again.

 

Would it be better if, when she blows me off we just leave the dog park? I don't want her to associate coming when she's called with leaving early, but I also don't want her to realize she can get away with whatever she wants and she'll get to play again anyways.

 

Her primary exercise is walking/jogging with me and playing fetch in the back yard (big back yard :D). The dog park is just for her to get a chance to really run around and play with other dogs, which she loves.

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You have any older, wiser dogs that can correct her for you? I tend to think behavior like this is pretty hard for us humans to catch in time to correct efficiently. Another dog telling her off for her behavior would likely make a far greater and more long lasting impression. Maggie has been used in just this manner with unruly pups and it only takes one or two corrections from her to stop behavior that the owner had been working on for weeks.

 

That said, Maggie and Z play this way all the time and I have no problem with it - they both enjoy themselves and I haven't seen any negative effects elsewhere in other activities.

 

Why not have her drag a long line in the park if you're going to be doing the three strikes game? That way you have control and don't risk messing up a good recall.

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I don't personally know anyone with well-socialized dogs that would be able to tell her off... Unfortunately most of my friends are not "dog people".

 

She did get told off once... by a beagle. It barkscreamhowled at her like you can't even imagine and chased her off with her tail between her legs. I thought finally she might ease up on the tail grabbing but next time we went she was at it again. And another time a Weimaraner *tried* correcting her (Gypsy finds bird dogs' cropped tails irresistable, especially Weims & GSP's) but she actually thought it was playing and the other dog got so mad that it chased her through the bushes - Gypsy's favourite game. :rolleyes: Wanna bring Maggie over here for a while? Just a couple of days! :D

 

I wouldn't mind if it was just Millie she did it to, but he's also leaving next weekend (sis is moving out) so it's gotta stop.

 

The long line is a hassle, especially when she's running through groups of people and gets the rope tangled in their legs - theres always a group of them just standing around talking and the dogs inevitably wind up running right through the middle of them. Plus she loves running through the bushes & trees at full speed and I'd be scared of the rope getting snagged and her hurting herself. When she does the chase-and-bite, it's almost always after a dog chasing a ball or a stick or else one that's running really fast.. which quickly eliminates any chance I'd have to grab the rope if it were dragging, or else give her enough length of rope if I was holding it to catch up with the other dog and actually bite it so I can correct her.

 

I'm not trying to pick holes in these suggestions, they are good but Gypsy is a very stubborn dog when she wants to be and I'm just trying to logically figure out the best method to try next... hopefully it will be the last thing I'll have to try!

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I'm not trying to pick holes in these suggestions, they are good but Gypsy is a very stubborn dog when she wants to be and I'm just trying to logically figure out the best method to try next... hopefully it will be the last thing I'll have to try!

 

 

The long line is a hassle? Seems to me if she gets hurt biting another dog the vet bill will be more of a hassle. Dog parks are one of my least favorite places.....

 

The behavior you are describing is NOT play. It will escalate and one party will get hurt. This behavior is not quasi "prey drive", it's rude.

 

Does she know how to carry a toy in her mouth? You can teach her that she must always have a toy in her mouth (can't bite with a mouth full). I don't play into the 3 strikes your out in cases like this - one time and you're done. She needs to learn to redirect her energy when some moving object runs past her. Be it grab a toy, run to you, lay down, anything. Shoot, throw a shaker can at her "right as she thinks about doing this" and detract her from this behavior.

 

I can tell you if she did this to one of my dogs there would be a blood bath - not only from them but me too! It doesn't sound like she is "stubborn" to me, sounds as though no parameters and rules have been set for her. It's not someone else's dogs responsibility or job to correct her, it's yours.

 

Sorry to sound so harsh but if what you are describing is what I am picturing then the next object of her teeth can be a child running.

 

Karen

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Does she know how to carry a toy in her mouth? You can teach her that she must always have a toy in her mouth (can't bite with a mouth full).

 

That's not a bad idea. I do this with Speedy when I'm using a broom or the vacuum cleaner. If he has nothing in his mouth, he tries to grab at them. It's definitely an impulse thing but since I have other issues that take much higher priority with him, I manage it instead of train. My solution has been either to shut him up while cleaning, or to make sure he has a ball in his mouth. If he has a ball, he capers around with the ball instead of trying to bite the broom or vacuum.

 

When he is loose with other dogs, I used to always make sure he had a ball in his mouth. In his case it was for confidence, but it kept him out of any trouble with the others. These days he can negotiate just fine without anything in his mouth, but for a long time it helped a lot.

 

Other than that, I think that trying to find a dog that will "tell her off" for it would be the best approach.

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Other than that, I think that trying to find a dog that will "tell her off" for it would be the best approach.

 

 

Yep, I have one that must have a toy in mouth to vacuum.....one time it was the remote, I do look now though :rolleyes:

 

The above comment really doesn't sit well with me. Why is it someone else's responsibility to teach a dog that does not belonging to them? Or why is it their dogs responsibility to do it? It's owners responsibility, not mine not my dogs (not speaking literally). If this happens with the "wrong" dog, Gypsy will not only get "told off" it could well lead to medical costs - human and canine.

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I think the "find a dog that will "tell her off"" comment is given with the idea that the other dog's owner would be in on the situation. Like if I was located near Lisa and said I'd be happy to bring Mags over so Gypsy can learn her manners, rather than just hoping the dog gets corrected at the park - working with a known quantity (i.e. Maggie has tremendous bite inhibition, but is very dramatic) vs. an unknown (other dogs at the park).

 

I think the shake can suggestion might work, but it might also scare the other dog(s) into running more, thus compounding the problem (plus if someone threw a shake can at a dog chasing my dog and their aim wasn't good and the can either hit or scared *my* dog, I'd be pretty ticked). If it were me and longlines weren't useable in this situation, Gypsy woudl be leashed at the park and we'd be actively working on impulse control whenever we were there and she'd be exercised elsewhere until her responses on leash (and on a long line held at all times eventually) were acceptable and strongly reinforced. The toy suggestion might be a great idea in combo with active impulse control work.

 

I've heard "Control Unleashed" is great for exercises on impluse control, too.

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I think the "find a dog that will "tell her off"" comment is given with the idea that the other dog's owner would be in on the situation.

 

But this too could be just situational with that particular dog, no?

 

I think the shake can suggestion might work, but it might also scare the other dog(s) into running more, thus compounding the problem (plus if someone threw a shake can at a dog chasing my dog and their aim wasn't good and the can either hit or scared *my* dog, I'd be pretty ticked).

 

Yes, timing would have to be "impeccable" that's why I said "as she starts to think of it".

 

I've heard "Control Unleashed" is great for exercises on impulse control, too.

 

Yep, imo something should be done, as much as I despise dog parks - this behavior needs to be addressed, corrected and stopped, regardless of the location that it is occurring in.

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Within an established pack (and that is no a dog park in 99% of the circumstances) it is usually acceptable to let one dog-savvy dog discipline another within certain boundaries. In the dog park/non-pack situation it is not fair or appropriate......

 

#1 because you have no idea how dog savvy the other dog is (he may have zero bite inhibition) and one or both dogs could end up hurt.

 

#2 you are creating stress and defensive attitudes in the other dog (setting him up to expect to have have to fight for his personal space)

 

#3 you are setting up an attitude in your dog that she *only* has to control her behavior with strange dogs when the another dog seriously aggressively objects. I.e. you are making her into a bully.

 

To clarify because Journey has a good point.... I've seen 3 strikes work great, but you have to remember that you don't have to let her get up to the point of damaging another dog to "strike out". You can apply the warning to the beginning of the out of control chasing for example, then the second warning immediately if she doesn't head the first, and the 3rd you are already there with a "TOO BAD" and *whatever you need to do to get her away from the other dog* I don't like the long line in that environment either, but I wouldn't hesitate to go charging in between her and the other dog and body block her right out of there. I'd block her out with aggressive body language and I'd bless her out verbally in a tone that she notices for sure. Some rescue groups/trainers have even promoted a bb filled capped pvc pipe to bang on the ground to exacerbate the point.

 

Regardless of how you choose to pressure her, I wouldn't let it up until I saw her turn tail - then I'd walk away and let her cautiously work her way up to playing again. Remember, you have to *appear* angry, not be angry. One of you has to be in control. And you have to release the pressure on her the minute she gives and forgive immediately.

 

I did suggest taking her out of the park, and if that's what works for you then it is an option. I have seen it work. Personally I prefer to deal with problems face on - but you have to adjust this to you and your dog.

 

Is there a less active time in the park where you can warn people what you want to do? Then they can train their dogs at the same time if they choose - they can feed treats, pull out toys, etc...and their dogs learn the "weird" person has nothing to do with them. I know I love stuff like that as proofing for my dogs.

 

If you continue letting this happen, and she grabs a tail at enough speed and at the right angle, she will either break the other dogs tail or pull it off (or deglove it - getting only the skin and the tail/muscle will be left). And if she did that to my dog, both of you would have to run far and fast to get away <laughing, but serious>

 

I hate dog parks. Does she really need to play there? What good is it really doing?

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The above comment really doesn't sit well with me. Why is it someone else's responsibility to teach a dog that does not belonging to them? Or why is it their dogs responsibility to do it? It's owners responsibility, not mine not my dogs (not speaking literally). If this happens with the "wrong" dog, Gypsy will not only get "told off" it could well lead to medical costs - human and canine.

 

It's not someone else's responsibility, but that doesn't mean that someone can't be found who will be willing to work with someone with a dog that needs some work. KWIM?

 

Personally, I have used my dog, Maddie, for that purpose on several occasions to assist others with inappropriate dogs. She has a very good way with inappropriate dogs. She isn't phased by them and is an excellent candidate for such work. I would never use Speedy or Sammie for such a task, and Dean remains to be seen.

 

So, I don't mean just put Gypsy in with any old dog. I would definitely recommend trying to find a dog that would be good for a situation like this.

 

The fact of the matter is, there are somethings that only another dog can teach a dog sometimes. That's not to say that intervention by a human can't be effective, but if my dog were having issues with being inappropriate with other dogs - and I have been in this situation myself - I would seek to set up situations with other dogs. Not because it is the responsibility of the other dog's owners, but because I hold the position that such an approach would be most effective. I've used this approach with success.

 

When it comes to risk, I personally see it as much more risky to be at a dog park than to have my dog socialize with a carefully chosen dog! That's not to say there is no risk - there is always risk when dogs are loose together, but a dog park is definitely risky unless you happen to be there with the same dogs every time and know them fairly well.

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Thank you all for the information you have provided me with. It is a lot to take into account and I am going to keep working on stopping this behaviour. Perhaps the dog park isn't an ideal situation to let her play with other dogs, but like I said before I don't have "dog people" friends, so they either don't have dogs or else they're not trained in the slightest.

 

The toy idea is a good one. Gypsy is without a doubt a food-motivated dog, but she does have favourite toys (her Cuz and a tug rope) that she loves playing with at home. She also is much more interested in other dogs than her toys, so I'll try working on getting her to carry something around.

 

Karen, I really don't think you sounded harsh. Although I do work with her on a constant basis and there are rules and she knows it, this is one thing that slipped by as at first I saw nothing wrong with it. Then when I realized how bad it had become, she had made it a habit. Yes, it's my fault and I am trying to correct it, it's just a bit tricky running after two dogs in a foot of snow with all my winter gear on trying to get between them so I can correct her, which is why it might be a better option to try and find a dog that won't allow this type of "play".

 

If you continue letting this happen, and she grabs a tail at enough speed and at the right angle, she will either break the other dogs tail or pull it off (or deglove it - getting only the skin and the tail/muscle will be left).

 

That made my insides hurt just thinking about it. This behaviour is stopping. Period. I'll try the 3 strikes method and the toy idea, and let you guys know how we're doing.

 

Thanks again,

Lisa

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It's not someone else's responsibility, but that doesn't mean that someone can't be found who will be willing to work with someone with a dog that needs some work. KWIM?

 

Personally, I have used my dog, Maddie, for that purpose on several occasions to assist others with inappropriate dogs. She has a very good way with inappropriate dogs. She isn't phased by them and is an excellent candidate for such work. I would never use Speedy or Sammie for such a task, and Dean remains to be seen.

 

 

Yes, but I will have to agree to disagree with ya on this one :rolleyes:

 

I won't place one of my dogs in this type of situation, not their job, not their responsibility. Now, I have a 13 yo that handles the crew at home just fine, that's between her and them, they all live together. But I just wouldn't place any of mine in this type situation - too much risk on all and it could break the trust they have in me.

 

There still needs to be lesson taught, mental control, alternative behaviors. Part of what I am reading about Gypsy says that she will blow off her owner, that is not an option in my book. If the behavior can be re-directed - with owner intervention, the bond will strengthen then between them. Trust and respect need improvement in this case is my opinion.

 

AFWIW, I really despise dog parks...can't say it enough!

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I used to use my older dogs as RB describes, because I felt it wasn't hurting them and they appeared to be unphased. Time has taught me differently, and I know now it did hurt them and cost them in their potential to be the maximum of a content, happy, dogs who knew, expected, their world to be safe and unstressed. They wanted to be led, not have to lead and control every strange dog they were introduced too in a casual encounter.

 

I've spent the rest of their lives, and countless following generations, teaching that they don't have to deal with unpleseant or strange dogs, that "I've got it", and they can relax and just trust me.

 

They can "be dogs" in a known pack of friends, and at home.

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Yes, but I will have to agree to disagree with ya on this one :rolleyes:

 

I won't place one of my dogs in this type of situation, not their job, not their responsibility. Now, I have a 13 yo that handles the crew at home just fine, that's between her and them, they all live together. But I just wouldn't place any of mine in this type situation - too much risk on all and it could break the trust they have in me.

 

There still needs to be lesson taught, mental control, alternative behaviors. Part of what I am reading about Gypsy says that she will blow off her owner, that is not an option in my book. If the behavior can be re-directed - with owner intervention, the bond will strengthen then between them. Trust and respect need improvement in this case is my opinion.

 

AFWIW, I really despise dog parks...can't say it enough!

 

I'm happy to agree to disagree. If you, as a dog owner, are not comfortable with the idea, then it is bet to use another technique. But this is a valid technique to consider when it comes to a situation like this. Whether or not it is the right one for this particular dog is something that her owner would have to decide.

 

I agree that mental control, alternative behaviors, and so forth need to be taught. The methods that I would choose to teach it are probably very different from the ones that most people here would use since I don't use correction-based training, but there absolutely needs to be additional training.

 

I'm not suggesting to introduce set-up social situations with other dogs as a substitute for training, but as a part of the whole process.

 

Still, for myself, a component of a training process that involves dog-dog behavior, getting other dogs involved in a context that will allow my dog to learn from other dogs would most certainly be included.

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I used to use my older dogs as RB describes, because I felt it wasn't hurting them and they appeared to be unphased. Time has taught me differently, and I know now it did hurt them and cost them in their potential to be the maximum of a content, happy, dogs who knew, expected, their world to be safe and unstressed. They wanted to be led, not have to lead and control every strange dog they were introduced too in a casual encounter.

 

Since I haven't described the exact context in which my dog has worked with dogs who need to learn how to be more appropriate, I can't say that the experience that your dogs had was the same as what Maddie has experienced throughout her life.

 

She is 7 years old now and I've never known a more content, happy, or unstressed dog. That in spite of the condition she was in when we adopted her when she was about a year and a half old.

 

Just to be clear, I did not make her have to lead and control every strange dog that she was introduced to in a casual encounter! There have been times when she has chosen not to interact with certain dogs, and I have always respected that and removed her from those situations. On the other hand, she has very apparently enjoyed interaction with other dogs to whom she (whether purposefully or not) taught appropriate play skills to.

 

If I gave them impression that I was going around constantly thrusting her into situations that would cause her stress, I gave the wrong impression. There have been some selected and carefully set up interactions between her and dogs who have needed to learn to be appropriate and the results have been very good. She has always known that I am there and will take control of the situation if need be.

 

I don't recommend this for every dog, however.

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Kristine and I have similar views on the dog-dog interaction front I think. :rolleyes:

 

Maggie actually likes those dogs she was used to "correct" obnoxious behavior with way more than other dogs she meets. There's something about the goofy ones that Maggie does well with and it almost seems beneficial to her to realize she can control the action (she has had weird fear/anxiety related issues with some other dogs in the past, but has done better since I allowed her to practice this appropriate interaction with dogs that listen to her).

 

I allow Z to correct dogs that bully her, too, because I'm not always going to be in the position to pull her out of an overwhelming situation (eg full on chases and body slams at the park that have her on the run w/ tail tucked and 5 huge dogs on her tail). I've only seen increased confidence in play after allowing this, though I do break up interactions that are too rough if I can, before she feels the need to tell the other dog off.

 

All that said, it really does depend on the individual dog being used and the personality of the dog being corrected. I choose the situations I put Maggie in VERY carefully and step in if anything looks amiss.

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I allow Z to correct dogs that bully her, too, because I'm not always going to be in the position to pull her out of an overwhelming situation (eg full on chases and body slams at the park that have her on the run w/ tail tucked and 5 huge dogs on her tail).

 

Why on earth would you *ever* let your dog get into that situation period! Its bad enough for a dog when that happens by accident... but to deliberately put them in a situation where that is even a good possibilty? or let yourself get out of position to protect her? What on earth is that teaching? (let me answer that: it teaches the dog not to trust the situations that you put her in)

 

This seems to be a circular argument.

 

Journey and I have had enough dogs to know how we've dealt with rough players, but more than anything we don't want out dogs in that situation because it creates the possibilty for injury, not to mention teaches the dogs to act in ways we don't want them to practice.

 

Hence, we can't understand the dog park fascination.

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Why on earth would you *ever* let your dog get into that situation period! Its bad enough for a dog when that happens by accident... but to deliberately put them in a situation where that is even a good possibilty? or let yourself get out of position to protect her? What on earth is that teaching? (let me answer that: it teaches the dog not to trust the situations that you put her in)

 

Umm I don't purposely put her in that situation! Dogs run faster than people and thus it can happen in any large group of dogs in just a few minutes. I admit to taking her to the dog park, and if this happened everytime we went I wouldn't go, but this happened once in the 5 visits we've had. We're working on her coming to me if she gets overwhelmed in the slightest and she does that reliably - harder to come to mom, even if she moving toward you, when you're 60 feet away (covered in about 3 seconds flat when Z is running). When I'm close to her (the vast majority of the time I'm no more than 30 ft away) I step in and break up play that is escalating.

 

If I had more friends with safe yards and friendly dogs, I'd spend more time in those situations, but right now that's not very available and I have to get Z out around dogs other than Maggie somehow.

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Why on earth would you *ever* let your dog get into that situation period!

 

I don't know about anyone else, but I find if very beneficial to have my dogs interact with other dogs beyond those in my own pack. Maybe going to an off-leash dog camp for 3 years and seeing the benefits that being off leash among 40 or so other dogs has produced in all four of my dogs - especially the one with a fearful temperament - has showed me that large scale dog-dog interaction has given my dogs something that I cannot. I do a lot with my dogs - and I can honestly say that no one particular thing (among all of the pieces that fit together) has helped my fearful dog be more comfortable in his own skin than those experiences have.

 

While I'm not a fan of dog parks, although I understand the need for them in urban areas and for those who don't have a safe place for their dogs to play, I am very much in favor of dogs having social interaction beyond their own pack.

 

This is a personal preference - not everyone feels this way, and that's fine.

 

But when I work with a dog that has behavior issues of any kind, I have found that one of the most significant pieces of information I get about the dog comes from observing his or her interaction with other dogs. And sometimes good socialization with other dogs can go a long way to providing a dog with "issues" a chance to learn things that can best be learned from other dogs.

 

So, to me it makes sense for those of us who have dogs that don't mind (even enjoy!) interacting with inappropriate dogs to help out others who have dogs that need some good appropriate interaction, in carefully chosen situations. It's not something that everyone would want to do, but I personally enjoy being able to have Maddie make a bit of a difference in the lives of other dogs, and their owners, in this way from time to time.

 

Also, back when Speedy was the dog with "issues", people with appropriate dogs went out of their way to assist me by allowing their dogs to socialize with him. It's good to be able to pay that forward.

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Gypsy84, not trying to hijack your thread, I read your post and see your plan :rolleyes:

 

RB and Erin,

 

What Gypsy was doing was not "play" I think that is important to clarify. When you allow your dogs to make decisions as to "correcting" behavior of a strange dog you are setting them up to get in trouble, be it an injury, a bad experience, whatever, it is not their responsibility. You are also placing them in charge of the situation whereas you should be in charge. Just because it's worked in the past doesn't mean the "next time" something won't go wrong. You cannot predict how another dog will react to their "correction". I don't want people thinking that it's OK for someone else's dog to reprimand theirs or vice verse - it's not. It's up to the owner of said dog. As was said, this behavior got out of control and was not always there, up to Gypsy84 to now reel her back in, not another dog.

 

I don't understand the concept you both seem to be advocating. As was said before it allows and/or teaches one dog to be a "bully" though it may not happen all the time and the temperament may be stable it still effects them. Do they really need the "hassle" of having to take care of the brats? No, they don't and they shouldn't be thrust into a situation by the person they "trust". And yes, when it is all said and done - the power they hold makes them "feel" good - but the winner of a dog fight also "feels good" (that's why when in doubt in my house they all get in trouble) and struts like a peacock. I am the leader, not a "chosen" one at any given moment. It's up to me to keep my dogs safe and secure, if it's the least bit questionable they are removed from the situation. It's not a valid training technique to set up dogs to fail, that's lack of leadership and training.

 

Getting dogs out to socialize doesn't have to be in a chaotic "uncontrolled" environment; trails, PetSmart and places like that are much better then the free for all at dog parks. Personally, I don't want my dogs to interact with others, they hang with me, learn their manners and learn to disregard other dogs when we're out and about. If I allow them to run with others, they mind their manners and respect me when I say times up.

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There are tons of other situations that offer far more to a dog's future behavior and life quality than a dog park.

 

Sometimes as primates, we got caught up in our need to play as adults, when canines, as adults, typically only play within their own pack. You can expand that pack beyond family borders, but an inconsistant, out of control (ime 99% of what goes into dog parks) group of strange adult dogs is not a normal situation to play in. Instead you get gang behaviors (reminiscent of any species containing unsupervised numbers of adolescents and young adults), social jostling, and dogs either have to fight/flee to avoid being bullied.

 

Exposure to a bad behavior teaches a dog nothing we want him to know. Play, in the dog park atmosphere, teaches infinate varieties of that.

 

I can count the times on one hand that I let now 1 year old Rose play with dogs outside of our familys' and my close friends dogs. And even those family incidences of play were limited to only a small part of her life. My attitude is that I wasn't raising public property; I was raising a dog for me who as an adult would enter situations as a trained and confident working dog, a family pet, and a friend.... She has seen umpteen varities of canine behavior, but because I was always in control of the situation she has no reason to negatively view the potential of any of it. Hence she approaches new things with a good attitude, the one I wanted her to have.

 

Regarding bad experiences as confidence builders are a scary thing. You are truly playing with fire, because you are counting on those chips away at the block of confidence your dog has inately to shape, not damage. The bad thing is once the damage is done, it's often not repairable. Will it take one chip...or 10?

 

Do we go to dog parks and huge play groups because our dogs need it? or do we?

 

Thought provoking I hope.

 

Still hate dog parks LOL

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I hate dog parks too.

 

I have never had Border Collies and a yard at the same time. (Well, I've never had a yard, so...) My dogs have always exercised in public areas. We go there so that they can play with me, and so that they can play with each other, not so they can be subjected to a random scrum of dogs. That's Solo's idea of hell. And Fly, well, she's fine with other dogs, totally normal behaviorally, but she doesn't like being tackled by strange Labs and pit mixes any more than Solo does, she just handles it better. Even in Philadelphia, which had much less open space than San Francisco, I always managed to exercise and train my dogs without throwing them into the middle of a playgroup full of strangers and bullies.

 

If I were you I would work with Gypsy in another area of the park until she was more focused on ME than the other dogs. Then when you choose to socialize with other people and dogs, you will be able to control her. Right now she's running around and self-rewarding and learning that you are irrelevant. That's not a good thing.

 

Solo and his first best dog buddy "broke up" over the behavior you describe. Friends of mine have a Pit/Lab mix named Audrey, a stout, handsome, brick shithouse of a lass, and Audrey and Solo used to love each other. I mean LOVE each other -- they slept together, and chewed each other's cheeks tenderly, and were just plain adorable together. But one day, while Solo was doing agility, Audrey got really excited and started chasing him and biting his ass. Solo was startled, and jumped, and spun around to say "WTF?" and then Audrey was startled, and reacted with her pit bull instincts, and started throwing down. And it might have been a very, very ugly fight if we hadn't been able to get them separated right away. Although Audrey forgot about the fight immediately and would want to love on Solo when she saw him, Solo never forgot, and would never go near Audrey again, because he was afraid of her. Audrey would be puzzled, and hurt, and it was very sad.

 

That was years ago, and to this day, if you mention Solo's name around Audrey, she gets excited and starts looking for him, and it's very sad that they can't be friends anymore, especially since Solo has hardly any friends. But that's life.

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