Shaping our BC pups for agility.

[Naps]

Does anyone have any suggestions for shaping our BC pups for agility without compromising their health and well being? We thought about staring with Rally obedience. Do you think this will conflict with distance handling down the road?

 

Thanks,

Naps2003

[MaggieDog]

There are plenty of foundation skills you can start now that relate directly to agility work but do not involve undue stress on a young dog. My little girl is 8mo (came to me at 5.5 mo) and we're working on solid (and fast) sits and downs, reliable recalls off of everything, including prey, manners under heavy distraction, comfort on various surfaces and in different situations, hand targetting, toy motivation, basic clicker skills, eye contact, etc. We're going to start working on barless jumps in the next few weeks hopefully and I need to find someone to help me familiarize her to the tunnel and work on restrained recalls to build up speed. I need to find a ladder to work on hind end awareness soon as well.

 

I personally LOVE the book "Click and Play Agility" and it details some foundation work in there as well. I think Clean Run also had a recent series on agility pups.

 

I won't be putting Z over jumps at heights above her elbow until about 16 months, weaves not before then either. Full size contacts may also be added between 16 and 18 mo - her growth has already slowed down significantly at 8mo.

[Naps]

Thank you I just purchased some agility equipment and training things we also have other dogs older to train as well. We purchased a contact trainer that we can lower to any height, a PVC ladder and a Treat N Train. I really don't want to demotivate a young pup. What do you think about tunnels?

[Shetlander]

Clean Run has a special Puppy Issue with lots of information on foundation training with puppies. I also highly recommend Susan Garrett's Shaping Success. In fact, if there was only one book I could recommend for agility, that would be it. I've read it a few times and it was Quinn's puppy raising bible. I didn't follow everything she did (I taught the contacts 1RTO for instance, don't use a head halter, etc.) but that book is chock full of activities and fun games to teach your dog self-control. She also has a DVD coming out in the next week or so called Crate Games which teach self-control and motivation. I wouldn't recommend her Ruff Love unless you are truly interested in following a very intensive program (I wasn't, so the book was pretty much a waste for me).

 

There are lots of books and DVD's at cleanrun.com. I love their store and hate to think how much I've spent on books, videos, toys, leashes, treats, ahhhhh..... I'm starting to think about how much it must be over the years!

 

Tunnels are fun for puppies, but at this point the most important thing you can be doing is building that relationship with your pup, doing flatwork, teaching self-control, working the basics that will put you in very good stead for the rest of his life.

 

Are you training with anyone? Able to go to a seminar or workshop on motivation, foundation, puppy training? I think it is really important to have the best instructor possible at least to consult with from time to time.

[Naps]

Hi Liz,

 

I just finished printing my clean run receipt! LOL Ok I got the shaping success, Really relaible recalls, Clik stick training tool and Clean Run suscription~ how'd I do?

[Shetlander]

I just finished printing my clean run receipt! LOL Ok I got the shaping success, Really relaible recalls, Clik stick training tool and Clean Run suscription~ how'd I do?

 

That's a start!

[Root Beer]

Studying Rally should not hurt your dog's ability to do agility, unless you end up in a class where the curriculum is correction based.

 

But a dog can learn to heel as one behavior and be sent out as another.

[Naps]

Ok I'll keep that in mind.

 

Kathy

[SoloRiver]

The thing I wonder is, how hard do you really need to try to "shape" a puppy for agility?

 

I mean, isn't this what's so great about Border Collies to begin with? That you basically point them at stuff and they do it? Because they respond so intuitively to the body language cues that are part of good handling? That they want to DO things with you so much that they consider the doing to be its own reward?

 

Solo was over 18 months old when we started agility, and he still took to agility like he'd been doing it all his life. Improving our skills in agility was never about shaping him -- it was always about me improving my handling skills and giving him better cues. Solo loved agility so much that rewards were an afterthought to him. This is a dog who was raised like a veal and wasn't shaped to do anything at all.

 

Isn't it possible that sometimes people make things a lot harder than they need to be?

 

That said, I have never been one of those people who was obsessed with shaving .0000001 of a second off of my dog's course time so I could make the World Team, so...

[Kate@JIm]

("That said, I have never been one of those people who was obsessed with shaving .0000001 of a second off of my dog's course time so I could make the World Team, so... ") - I really don't feel the majority of people getting their puppies off to a good start think like that!

 

 

You don't have to start "shaping" or (foundation training is what we called it ) with puppies, but it's so much more fun.

You can just let puppies be puppies, but a few minutes of foundation training a day really helps later - plus they're so much fun to work with!

 

They are little sponges and will remember later when you start to train more seriously.

( I'm always amazed at what they remember)

 

This is done in fun, no serious training being done, just being exposed to equipment, noises, smells, different surface's at a young age can help.

 

There are those that take it more seriously then others, usually our little session turns to silliness.

[Naps]

Well... considering I've only ran my Mix breed in two NADAC trials, would probably mean I'm very much a Newie :-) Perhaps my biggest concern is keeping this little boy happy and busy without taking away his puppyhood. I think I am most guilty of babying Noah because his is bottle fed from 1 day young. Mom belonged to a friend and the pups starting dying very rapidly:- "Noah" and I have a very special bond and I want him to fill secure in his world- thats all. I am not a very competitive person, I just like to take care of them and spend quality time. I like the term Foundation Training much better. I also have two Aussie but they are very different from the BC pup. I suppose I used the term shaping because I didn't want to lure him into doing new things. I work at a Veterinary Hospital and see first had the injuries from various sports, so the longer it takes to build his foundation is fine with me.

 

Kathy

[Naps]

oosp... sorry for the typos - rushing off to work!

 

Have a great day.

 

Kathy

[PSmitty]

I think you make a good point in saying that you don't want to take away from your dog's puppyhood. That would be important to me, as well.

 

I read Shaping Success, and it has plenty of good stuff in it. But, you've gotta realize that Buzz (the puppy) was bought with the ultimate goal being agility success. So, if that's important to you, then the book offers lots of ideas. Personally, I raised my last puppy (though not as young as Buzz was) to just be a good puppy. Do I want him to be my agility partner? Yes. But along the lines of what Melanie said, I don't think I needed to do much to "shape" him for agility. I just wanted a happy, friendly, biddable pup, and that's how I raised him. The rest is falling into place, as we go about our agility training (he's now 15 months).

 

I think I'm rambling, but there's nothing wrong with starting to build some foundation for future agility. I like Erin's ideas of fast recalls, basic obedience, that type of thing. Also, if he likes to tug and play, build on that, too. Clean Run will give you good ideas. It sounds like you've got Noah's best interest at heart, so I know you'll be fine. Have fun!

[Root Beer]

I read Shaping Success, and it has plenty of good stuff in it. But, you've gotta realize that Buzz (the puppy) was bought with the ultimate goal being agility success. So, if that's important to you, then the book offers lots of ideas. Personally, I raised my last puppy (though not as young as Buzz was) to just be a good puppy. Do I want him to be my agility partner? Yes. But along the lines of what Melanie said, I don't think I needed to do much to "shape" him for agility. I just wanted a happy, friendly, biddable pup, and that's how I raised him. The rest is falling into place, as we go about our agility training (he's now 15 months).

 

I definitely took that approach, as well. Granted, Dean was 10 months old when I got him, but I have only recently gotten into what I consider "serious" training with him. Over the summer I did "lite" training and let him focus on being a happy dog. He played with Mickey, learned to swim, played a ton of ball, and did some fun stuff with just me.

 

I got some really good training ideas from Shaping Success like the 2 by 2's and ideas for contact training. But Dean's first job is to be a companion pet to me. His second job is dancing. Agility is his third. If he's only mediocre at it, but enjoys it and plays safely, I will be satisfied.

[Shetlander]

Perhaps my biggest concern is keeping this little boy happy and busy without taking away his puppyhood.

 

Whether you're interested in doing agility for fun or serious competition, I think it makes extremely good sense to build as solid a foundation as possible. Not all BC's are point and shoot in performance sports, by any stretch of the imagination. In fact, they often present their own challenges. Quinn has drive and athletic ability to spare, but I still needed to do a lot of extra training with him that I didn't need with my shelties and Lhasa. For instance, Quinn often moves faster than I can think and his natural tendency would be to miss contacts so he can get where he's going as quickly as possible. With the Lhasa, I can easily baby-sit his contacts. It might be a pain but it is by no means difficult. With Quinn, they need to be rock solid. Same with his start line stays. I could have trained these when he became an adult but there was no reason I needed to wait.

 

If you do the training right, it's all fun and games to the puppy or dog. I did lots of start line stays and 1RTO with Quinn when he was a puppy and he had a great time. He even started resource guarding the plank I used for the IRTO (he quickly learned that wasn't allowed) and I have a very cute photo of him lying possessively next to 2 weave poles when we were working on entries (you don't want to train the poles until at least 14 months). In both cases, he was saying "Mine!" about two things he saw as leading to toys, food and fun.

 

As it turns out, I'm not doing agility right now but our training was still fun for him and exercised his growing mind. It certainly didn't take anything away from his being a puppy. It gave him games to play. My dogs are all also my companions first and foremost. Early training doesn't need to detract from that.

[Naps]

Noah and I thank you for all you caring suggestions. I have alot of reading to do!

[Lenajo]

Just raise him to be a good dog. Socialize him so that the world is his oyster, and train him not to take advantage of the people who provide that world. Good basic manners (crate quietly, sit, down, stay, heel politely), broaden his mind and take those manners on the road with age appropriate expectations. Use your larger primate brain to set that puppy brain up in situations where he never learns that you aren't in control - both of him, and of his environment (i.e. he is always safe and the rules are always the same). You can introduce him to obstacles as part of an overall socialization experience, but just as easily you can take him to the park and teach him to do the kiddie slide and to hop on and off the tires one afternoon, plus let kids feed him treats and expand that future good dog brain.

 

I agree with SoloRiver: any BC with a normal body and mind for the breed can learn to do agility well enough for most to compete with. If you want to be a World Team person you *might* have to get "Ruff Love" to ensure success, but otherwise...it's just a game. The contact example with Shetlander doesn't fly (pun intended ) because the dog prone to leap and run would be just as prone if he started agility at 2 years, 4 years, or 2 months. The reason why people think older dogs are hard to train is that they forget they are _re_training usually. That is they let them learn to blow those contracts for a while, then later want to change that pattern they set. Or they start with an older dog that has other baggage - lack of socialization, lack of training in basic manners and skills. All of which can be dealt with of course, but not a problem for a well raised pup like you will have. Agility training should *never* be the main, or heaven forbid only, reason to socialize and train your puppy.

 

In fact I go so far as to say that Agility should not be the reason behind any of your puppy training or socialization plans period.

 

After all, what if the puppy never does agility? What if he has an accident tommorrow rendering it physically impossible? or if you do? The best upbringing will allow him flexibility to be happy with or without Agility.

 

People thing so-n-so the agility expert has perfect <insert agility skill here> on their dog because they started him of <insert your training program here> at an early age. Actually it's because they were consistant, and put the work in required. One world team member told me that she considers 1000 reps to be a requirement of a perfect a-frame performance. Now honestly, 1000 correct rep over that frame and my fat butt could even do it perfectly Doesn't matter if you had me do it as a kid, or as a 20 year old. If anything it would be safer for the human 20 year old, because the bones and joints would be fully mature.

 

Just points to think about.

[Tassie]

Only a semi-serious competitor here - and not just agility. I definitely agree with having a puppy just be a puppy (don't think there's going to be any risk about that, naps, with your 'baby' ). That said, there are lots of games you can play with your pup which will help in his physical and mental development, and in the development of the relationship between you which is fundamental to anything you want to do with a dog.

 

I'd be looking at incorporating lots of rear-end awareness stuff, and doing stuff which will get Noah used to working on both sides of your body. This helps in getting better physical balance in the dog, and can be a useful skill in many activities, particularly agility and heelwork-to-music/freestyle. Things like getting used to different surfaces, including wobble boards, walking through ladders laid flat on the ground and so on.

 

Targeting is a great game to play with puppies, and again is a foundation skill for all sorts of things. Targeting your hand, your foot, a target plate, a target stick - etc.

 

Some interactive play every day helps to build up the pup's focus on you and seeing you as part of the team.

 

Just some suggestions to add to the general sort of basic training and socialisation that I'm sure you're doing.

 

Oh, and if Noah is showing signs of being sound sensitive, it would be good to be working on that as early as possible.

 

Disclaimer: if stock work is in Noah's future, some of these activities may not be applicable/desirable - be guided by the experienced folk on the boards.

[Naps]

Thanks for all the inspiring words. I am so... looking forward to enjoying Noah as he grows with his canine and feline family. He will definitely will not lack socialization because he goes to work with me everyday-(Not the Veterinary Hospital) to my pet sitting clients who require daily walks. A friend who rescues BC' once told me that working their brain tires them out just as much as physical activity- do you agree?

 

Kathy

[diane allen]

Your last question first: definitely! At one point, I was driving 3 hours to practice with a mid-age dog who NEVER sleeps in the car. After a mere hour or two, shared by severall other dogs, in a small indoor practice room, she would snooze all the way home. She definitely was not physically tired! But her poor little brain had put in overtime! :-)

 

If you need to spend any more money at Clean Run - another great video/DVD is Greg Darrett's foundation work. It does mostly involved equipment, so might be for later. But has some really helpful foundation work in it.

 

diane

[Naps]

Do you mean In Focus Foundation work DVD? I sure hope so~ cause I ordered that too Sure don't want to pay this clean run bill.

 

Kathy

[Shetlander]

The contact example with Shetlander doesn't fly (pun intended ) because the dog prone to leap and run would be just as prone if he started agility at 2 years, 4 years, or 2 months. The reason why people think older dogs are hard to train is that they forget they are _re_training usually.

 

I never said Quinn needed to learn a rock solid contact performance as a puppy. However, he did need that solid foundation at some point and as long as I had this smart, eager, ready to play and learn puppy, I worked on it with him from a young age. I don't personally find older dogs difficult to train. But I don't see the reason not to train a puppy if it is fun and rewarding and not harmful to him.

 

In fact I go so far as to say that Agility should not be the reason behind any of your puppy training or socialization plans period. After all, what if the puppy never does agility? What if he has an accident tommorrow rendering it physically impossible? or if you do? The best upbringing will allow him flexibility to be happy with or without Agility.

 

Funny you should write that. A good portion of the training I did with Quinn as a puppy was done with agility specifically in mind. Somewhere in the past year, I've lost my zeal for the sport. On the rare occassions I pull out equipment, Quinn is more than happy to play the game. But he's probably happier if I pull out the Frisbee or, heaven help us, his soccer ball. And certainly he's way, way, WAY happier if I drive him to sheep. Really, truly, honestly, foundation training at an early age, done correctly doesn't have to be anything more than a game you play with your puppy.

 

One world team member told me that she considers 1000 reps to be a requirement of a perfect a-frame performance. Now honestly, 1000 correct rep over that frame and my fat butt could even do it perfectly Doesn't matter if you had me do it as a kid, or as a 20 year old. If anything it would be safer for the human 20 year old, because the bones and joints would be fully mature.

 

I'd bet that most World Team members would say that you do not do full A-Frames until the dog is physically mature. But that same trainer may say you can do lots of reps on a flat board or a contact trainer. There is a lot of emphasis these days on not pushing puppies and young dogs too fast either physically or mentally.

 

Train your puppy. Wait until your dog is two, three, four or five to train. Whatever works for you and is safe and fun for your dog. I don't think there is one right answer though there is obviously a variety of preferences.

 

This is kind of a switch for me. Among performance people, I tend to be very laid back in my puppy raising. My puppies have access to all kinds of toys (though I do keep some special ones for only when I'm playing too). I don't make my puppies work for every piece of food, pat or invite onto the furniture. I do insist they move if I want their spot on the sofa though. I encourage my puppies to run and play with other dogs. I received more than one lecture about letting Quinn play so much with other dogs when he was growing up because I wasn't more interesting than the dogs he could chase and wrestle with.

 

As an aside, at the age of nearly 2 1/2, while still playful and friendly with other dogs, Quinn would now rather play with me. I think it has something to do with the thousands of reptitions he had me do throwing Frisbees, kicking soccer balls, and chucking Chuck-It Balls. In fact, I think perhaps someone should talk to him about all the foundation work he did with me when he was a youngster. He's trained me well and best of all has made it fun and rewarding for me. So it's all good.

[Shetlander]

Ok, I couldn't resist. In addition to the foundation agility training Quinn did as a youngster, I also allowed him to watch agility shows. Here he is at the tender and still impressionable age of 8 months watching agility on Animal Planet.

 

[Naps]

Liz,

 

Quinn is BEAUTIFUL I love the pic. I often wondered how the A-Frame would effect his hip development.

 

Kathy

[PSmitty]

I think the problem with the A-frame has more to do with shoulders, than hips? Anyway, good point in that it's very important to keep your pups physical limitations in mind. No high jumping, no full size contacts and no weaving under a year, is what I think. Or 18 months, even. I know you already know that (maybe even mentioned it, but I'm too lazy to go back and read ).

 

I just wanted to say Noah is *darling*! I think we need more pictures, please.