Unpopular Pooch

[TracyR]

I have found that more often than not when I am walking my dog and another dog comes over to snif, they growl at her. Dogs that are friendly to other dogs growl at my border collie. Anyone else experience this or have any thoughts on why this might be?

[SoloRiver]

My dog, Solo, is the same way. Other dogs hate him -- it's like he has a "kick me" sign on his back.

 

Often we'll be walking down the street, he'll be totally minding his own business, and a dog on the other side of the street will be bristling and growling at him. Back when I tried to get him into playgroups, no one ever wanted to play with him. He was like the last kid picked for the kickball team.

 

Solo is not behaviorally normal with people or with dogs, probably partly due to genetics, definitely partly due to a total lack of socialization while he was growing up (he is a rescue; his first owner left him in a kennel alone for his first year of life). Other dogs can tell that there's something "not right" about him and I think that's why they react so badly to him. He's not good with other dogs either, but he ignores them until they get right in his face, while other dogs seem to go out of their way to get him.

 

Of course, as his doting owner, one might think I have a biased perspective on it, and maybe I do. I don't think so, though.

[Anda]

Interesting.

 

Nothing useful to add, just that my dog is the exact opposite. Every dog he meets wants to be his friend. Even grumpy old "mind-your-own-business-kid" types turn into playful puppies when meeting him. When he's on leash, he responds with equal friendliness. When he's off leash, he ignores them. Lots of disapointed pooches leave him saying "Pfffuaaa, those Border Collies!"...........

[Rye]

Is your dog neutered?

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

I had a spayed female who was the same way, and a male now who is related to her, who is also the same way. It's the "kick me" sign. I believe these dogs are just a wee bit off in their social skills for whatever reason. Sometimes it can just be the way their personality is put together. Some dogs are social climbers who give off antagonistic signals that are too subtle to read. Trim was this way - she's one of the reasons I learned the most subtle signs of aggression - a dog would be innocently approaching her and instead of the normal appeasing or neutral signals, she would put her ears awry, toe up, or lock eyes ever so briefly.

[Shetlander]

Quinn tended to tick dogs off when he was younger. I think that's a very good point about these kinds of dogs being a bit off socially. Quinn is quite submissive with new dogs but when he was a puppy and teen, he was just so darned excited in being submissive, I think he annoyed other dogs in his submissiveness. It wasn't 100% of strange dogs and his most consistent critics were (and still are to a lesser extent nowadays) female Border Collies. The boys generally liked him fine. At not quite 2 1/2 he now appears more socially acceptable to other dogs both male and female.

 

I find it interesting that the place he has always done the best socially is at his sheep lessons. I think he is so focused on the sheep that his interactions with other dogs are very calm. And those dogs are also thinking about bigger things, so any exchanged sniffs are brief and businesslike.

[mbc1963]

Interesting topic!

 

There is another dog at our park who is DEFINITELY the unpopular kid on the block. He's a golden, about 18 months old. He was adopted at 1 year, after being given up to the shelter because a family with small kids couldn't handle his energy. He's jumpy and runs fast and kind of gets in your face, and a lot of the other dogs cannot STAND him. In fact, one of the morning-walk crew had to stop coming to the park, because if her dog smelled this other dog, he would not pass through the gates of the park; he'd refuse to move! My dog just chased him off, nipped a bit of golden butt fur a couple times, and now the dog stays away.

 

In another vein, my dog definitely gives off some kind of a signal - not the "kick me" sign, but the "don't get in my face" sign. There's a fairly notorious dog who walks at the park - she's randomly run toward other dogs and more or less attacked at least three that I know of, for no good reason. (Yes, dumb owner, for sure.) But when I'm walking Buddy, they both make a HUGE point of walking big, curved paths as far away from each other as they can get, on leashes. It's like they're both giving off those "I'm the man" signals.

 

I trust that these dogs read each other's signals as well as we read human body language. We've all had to work with someone who was just "off." A weird guy came to work with me a few years ago, and at the lunch table, you could watch the coworkers literally LEAN AWAY from this guy, close ranks and make a circle that excluded him. It sounds mean, but there was just something WRONG with this guy. I swear if we'd been a bit lower on the polite civilization ladder, we would have picked up big sticks and clubbed him to death - or at least driven him out of town with torches! (He was fired after about 5 weeks. I swear it was his sheer weirdness - the students felt it as strongly as the other teachers did!)

 

Mary

[kelpiegirl]

Sometimes it's just their smell, or their affect- some dogs are intimidated very easily. My girl Kylie is- she is a scaredy dog. Lucy, no one ever seems to dislike her, but, I will say, for the first time in her life a couple of months ago a BC bitch came into her space, and she growled- very odd- she just was worried about this dog- and later when they were running around together, Lucy had her hair up. So, there was *something* about that girl that worried her. Now, if it were a BOY BC, she would have LOVED him.

[jrid]

I train dogs with a couple of friends every week and one of them has a male golden that the Border Collies just hate. He does not do any thing to deserve the animosity shown him, he just exists and is a Golden.

[2 Devils]

I had a bc/mix named Charlotte and she had the "KICK ME" sign too. I cannot tell you how many times she was growled at or how many times dogs would come flying from no where and attack her. I finally stopped taking her places except flyball. Needless to say she did become dog aggressive but was fine during flyball.

 

She always had some kind of medical problem so I wonder if that played into her getting the short end of the stick all the time even though when she was "healthy" she was till attacked so who knows.

[juliepoudrier]

My young male gets that reaction a lot from other dogs. I don't think he's wearing a "kick me" sign though--I think he's putting off adolescent male dog signs (aka "I'm an obnoxious adolescent male") that other dogs take exception to. I expect he'll grow out of it.

 

J.

[SoloRiver]

I train dogs with a couple of friends every week and one of them has a male golden that the Border Collies just hate. He does not do any thing to deserve the animosity shown him, he just exists and is a Golden.

 

Solo despises retrievers. He has what I would call a "retriever problem." He still doesn't go out of his way to do anything to them, but if he sees one in the vicinity he gets ultra tense because normal retriever behavior is to pummel first and ask questions later (like, "oh, you did want to play, didn't you?").

 

Border Collies seem to have a highly developed sense of personal space (makes sense) while retrievers have approximately zero sense of personal space. Solo reacts the way I would if I knew a guy who always stood too close when he talked to me, spitted when he talked, and had bad breath: "Ew, stay away!"

 

A friend with a Border Collie who had a similar animosity toward retrievers once joked that if her dog had a website, the URL would be "www.floppyyellowdogsmustdie.com."

[notailabigail]

This is interesting.

 

Ryan seems, unfortunately, to be wearing the "kick me" sign right now. He's 7 months but he really isn't overly obnoxious with strange dogs as far as I can tell, and he is neutered. Yesterday a "friendly" yellow lab dragged its walker across the trail we were on to latch on to poor Ryan's nose. He has 2 punctures now from this "oh! he's *never* aggressive!" lab. This is the 3rd time Ryan's had his face punctured. It's taking a lot of work to bring up his confidence again.

[PSmitty]

Oh, poor Ryan! Tell him Alex sympathizes. He got jumped at agility class Monday night.

[Beach BCs]

There's a dog in our obedience class that Georgia has difficulties with. But only when they are being social. Georgia and Suki are both spayed females just about the same size and age. Typically Georgia prefers playing with females rather than males so you'd think they'd get along great. Georgia can perform all her commands right next to Suki (american indian dog or something). She's even done five minute downs less then two feet from Suki without the littlest problem. Georgia sees her there but completely dismisses her. But the seconds the instructor says "Ok, that's it for today" Georgia looks at Suki as if to say "You bother me and I'm going to do something about it!!" There's never been any violent contact, alot of snarling and snapping from both side. I do think there's something 'off' about Suki's energy.

 

On the rare occasions that Georgia doesn't seemed irritated with Suki her owner and I let them bump noses & sniff and walk away before anyone gets too aggitated. I have no idea if it's working but I also don't think Georgia has to like every dog she meets. But one day about a month ago Suki took off fast from her owner on a recall excercise (we have class in a big open field; very isolated). The instructer told the owner "Go get Suki"; she was racing all over the place. Georgia must have thought the instructor meant for her to go get her because she took off after Suki, nipped her bum and took her by the leash and delivered her to me.

 

Some dogs I think just give off weird energy that make other dogs feel uncomfortable. And other dogs are just bullies with clueless owners.

[Shetlander]

This is the 3rd time Ryan's had his face punctured. It's taking a lot of work to bring up his confidence again.

 

That's terrible! I was talking to Quinn's obedience instructor about a poor interaction between him and a BC female who doesn't like him. I had mentioned that the other dog went up to Quinn and started after him so that he rolled over for her. She never hurts him but I want to set these two up for success, calm meetings not that sort of interaction. Anyway, the instructor said that anytime she sees a dog coming towards hers, friendly or not, she steps in between, with her dog behind her and firmly tells the other dog no! She's very much about being in control and proactive.

[notailabigail]

Anyway, the instructor said that anytime she sees a dog coming towards hers, friendly or not, she steps in between, with her dog behind her and firmly tells the other dog no! She's very much about being in control and proactive.

 

I think that's what I'm going to have to do with Ryan (I already do that with Abby - she'd rather not say hi to strange dogs rushing up to her face).

 

The other 2 puncture incidents were unfortunate. The first was by a dog with arthritis in his shoulder. Ryan bumped the shoulder while greeting the dog, dog grabbed Ryan right under his eye. Nobody told me until afterwards that the dog was sore. The second was by my friend's dog and it wouldn't have actually been a puncture if Ryan hadn't been stopped by a fallen tree while trying to back up. Friend's dog gave a warning growl, Ryan backed up, got stuck and gave the impression that he wasn't listening to the warning, I guess. Puncture number two under the other eye. My poor, unlucky puppy!

[MrSnappy]

I have a different problem with Red Dog. No one takes his "stay away" signals seriously. I mean, I'm just a dumb human and I can read them loud and clear, but dogs seem to ignore it and keep getting in his face. RD was very dog aggressive in his younger years, still has his moments, but goes to the dog beach every day and every day he tries to stay of everyone's way and just play ball, but inevitably some dog fixates on him and goes out of its way to get bitten. Because RD *will* bite - and he doesn't, like Piper, punish and move on ... he's the gift that keeps on giving. I once watched him pick up a Toller puppy by the face and shake him repeatedly. He doesn't know how to snark, just to attack.

 

(The Toller owner blamed himself, because he said his puppy was obnoxious. I still paid the vet bill though, because I think RD's reactions are over the top nasty)

 

Tweed, if he gets pushed, will drop his ball and punish if he must. But for the most part he just has to look at another dog and it backs off. I don't know what he's saying, but it's effective. I wish RD knew how to say it too.

 

RDM

[PSmitty]

Interesting discussion.

 

The dog who got Alex gave no warning, because Alex is very good at dog language and would've backed off. It was totally my fault for letting my guard down around a dog that I know has "space issues". It would've been nice if she growled or snarked rather than try to tear his face off, though.

 

Back to the topic, I agree that some dogs just give off a signal that other dogs take exception to. I don't know what it is, and it's probably not even intentional.

 

I think the OP's dog is a spayed female, right?

[clara]

Ling used to be scared of other dogs, now she's just snarky with those she doesn't think are cool enough for her or dare to interupt her very serious work of fetching a ball or frisbee. At daycare, they have actually dubbed a small group of females, including Ling, as "The Heathers"!

 

That's really strange about dogs like the OP's who get picked on though. It would be interesting to watch and see if you could figure out what kinds of subtle signals are happening between the "kick me" dogs and others. Maybe they are putting out the submissive signals of an bottom tier pack member that other dogs recognize, and then they are treated according?

[airbear]

Ling used to be scared of other dogs, now she's just snarky with those she doesn't think are cool enough for her or dare to interupt her very serious work of fetching a ball or frisbee. At daycare, they have actually dubbed a small group of females, including Ling, as "The Heathers"!

Oh! Wick could join that group! She would fit in quite well! She snarks and smiles at dogs that won't leave her alone, but mostly they ignore her snarks and just keep sniffing.

 

Lou seems to give off a "kick me" vibe, but when the dog gets close, he just lies down and turns his head. It really is extraordinary to see the other dog slam on the brakes. Usually, the other dog sniffs him a bit then walks away, at which point Lou gets up and trots away. I have been told he has very good "doggy body language". Bear ... no dog messes with Bear. Even though he is old now and a younger dog could whup him pretty easily ... they just don't try.

[MrSnappy]

Even though he is old now and a younger dog could whup him pretty easily ... they just don't try.

 

Red Dog tried! That was a funny fight. Two old geezers huffin' and puffin' at each other.

 

Of course, Red Dog will soon have no teeth left.

 

All of my dogs, BTW, were terrified of Wicked when she lived here.

 

RDM

[airbear]

All of my dogs, BTW, were terrified of Wicked when she lived here.

That's because there is nothing scarier than bat a$$ crazy.

[SoloRiver]

Lou seems to give off a "kick me" vibe, but when the dog gets close, he just lies down and turns his head.

 

It'd be much simpler if that's what Solo did, but his usual response is "Oh yeah? You wanna piece of this?"

 

RD's response to strange dogs sounds very similar to what Solo does. I think Solo is well within his rights to not want other dogs in his face, and I don't care if he likes other dogs or not. Solo does not make any effort to interact with strange dogs, and is very good at minding his own business, so what would be fair would be if other dogs would just leave him alone, but unfortunately that does not happen, mostly because other owners cannot be bothered to teach their dogs recalls.

 

That said, I wish Solo's reactions were less full-frontal when he is confronted by other dogs. He hasn't actually hurt any other dogs (he is a master of the full-speed snarling charge and bodyslam that usually sends the other dog flying -- which translates roughly into "I SAID leave me the $#&% alone!" -- but the other dog usually doesn't even have slobber on him), but he looks very frightening and given how stupid people in San Francisco are about dog behavior, I don't take any chances that he might be labeled "dangerous." So, he is not loose around strange dogs and when I see one appropaching, I take the dogs and walk the other way.

 

Fly, unlike Solo, is extremely popular. She is not particularly interested in playing with strange dogs either, so she'd rather that they all left her alone. Fly's dog language is very good, so she gets by with simply showing her teeth to communicate displeasure. I'm not sure how good Fly really is at reading strange dogs; for example, she loved Solo when she met him. Fly is worth her weight in gold.

[clara]

Melanie, I had never seen your blog, and your story about Solo and Fly is beautiful and touching. You've got a nice way with words... thanks for the link.