OkieJenna Posted October 21, 2007 Report Share Posted October 21, 2007 Hello everyone! I am still a novice handler and I had some success with trialing in the USBCHA novice classes this spring and summer, but I want more! I would like to be able to get my dogs more experience under their belts and was wondering what everyone's opinion was on trialing with the AHBA or ASCA. I have no idea what the differences are other than everyone says USBCHA trials are more difficult. Another question I have is will I catch hostility from straddling the fence? (If I do decide to try the other organizations.) Thanks in advance... Jenna Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelpiegirl Posted October 21, 2007 Report Share Posted October 21, 2007 I have done both- well, usbcha and asca. There is NO outrun in asca- there is a take pen, where you send your dog in to get the sheep. I do believe that they have ranch classes, which include trailer loading etc., but there are no really big fields to work in. I was in the asca trial first, then the usbcha. Experience is experience- and different situations are good for your dog. Lots less (to no) gather work in asca, and almost all gather work in novice usbcha. There are folks who do both, and I don't know why anyone would be hostile should you do both. If they are, tell them to ...... You do what you want with your dog. I have gotten, believe it or not, the brush off at asca events for my dog not being controlled enough, and not obedient enough- and not leashed enough... but at the usbcha trials everyone has been very friendly. Of course I have a dog who is not BC or Aussie! Hello everyone! I am still a novice handler and I had some success with trialing in the USBCHA novice classes this spring and summer, but I want more! I would like to be able to get my dogs more experience under their belts and was wondering what everyone's opinion was on trialing with the AHBA or ASCA. I have no idea what the differences are other than everyone says USBCHA trials are more difficult. Another question I have is will I catch hostility from straddling the fence? (If I do decide to try the other organizations.) Thanks in advance... Jenna Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stockdogranch Posted October 22, 2007 Report Share Posted October 22, 2007 AHBA can be fun, as long as you don't get into collecting titles! They offer a ranch course, and at least around here, they have a new Large Flock Ranch course coming up for the first time. Anyway, as long as you look at it as just more places to run your dog and new settings and different stock, it can be beneficial. However, you will probably find a real difference in the sheep. USBCHA always uses range ewes out here, and AHBA will always be someone's home flock (read: pretty darn dog-broke). One good thing about AHBA vs. ASCA is that in ASCA you have to start at the beginner level and work your way through their levels (so you can pay them your money and collect titles along the way). In AHBA, you just jump in at the appropriate level for you and your dog. Anyway, it's just more experience for you and your dog to go to the post, A Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eileen Stein Posted October 22, 2007 Report Share Posted October 22, 2007 I don't think any of the organizations you mention (or the people in them) would have a problem with your trialing in any or all of them. There are people who would disapprove if you trialed in AKC, though. I haven't trialed in ASCA or AHBA, so I can't comment on what their trials are like. I do know an ASCA person who said that border collies are sometimes made to feel unwelcome there, because the Aussie people don't like it that the border collies always win. Whether this is true or not, I can't say. I've seen AKC Course A trials, and I've always thought they would be a very bad start for a border collie, just because they emphasize obedience on sheep in a small area. The dog never really gets to take charge of its sheep. I personally think it's better to train a border collie sort of with broad sweeping strokes first, and then after they have a feel for their sheep, and for the big picture, start refining it into smaller, more precise work. Since I gather ASCA and AHBA trials are also small arena trials, I wonder if it would be the same thing there. Anna, do you see what I'm saying? What do you think? Of course, if you're doing USBCHA trials also, and training without any particular kind of trial in mind, it probably wouldn't be a problem. I think of it more as a problem for people who are "training for the test," and the test is an arena-type trial. ETA: Never mind, Anna. I see you have other issues on your plate. Hope you and all your animals are safe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted October 22, 2007 Report Share Posted October 22, 2007 I don't see the harm in AHBA trialing if you're just starting out, except for as Eileen stated (the obedience thing vs. actually learning to control the livestock). I trialed in one AHBA trial at the advanced level and simply found it not terribly challenging. Of course that was one trial, and maybe other trials at other locations would be different. My main thought on those trials is that they are awfully expensive--they seem to run about $40/run, at least on the entries I've seen. That's more than I pay to run in open at USBCHA trials. So while I've thought on occasion that it might be fun to take the youngsters to one of those other trials, I just haven't done it because I don't think I would get the value for my money, especially when the average USBCHA type trial often costs half that per run. But if you're lacking in novice USBCHA type trials in your area and want to get your feet wet, I don't think you'd do any harm, unless you crank on your youngster for the obedience aspect of it, which could hurt you on down the line. (The biggest pitfalls I see are the high pressure usually caused by tiny arenas and sheep that are so broke as to not require the dog to be able to read them and really work them, which consequently could lead you to believe that your dog has more skills than it actually has--a result of a certain amount of artificialness in the tests because of the need to have sheep that are completely broke.) J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bo Peep Posted October 22, 2007 Report Share Posted October 22, 2007 a very long time ago in a state not so far away I trialed in AHBA trials. They were a lot of fun. A good into to the BC trials. The advanced ones gave you about a 50 foot outrun and depending on the person that ran them were in an open field. The set up where I went wasn't ideal. The exhaust pen was a trailer and we spent a lot of time going around that trailer because the sheep knew where it was. LOL. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdarling Posted October 22, 2007 Report Share Posted October 22, 2007 The exhaust pen was a trailer and we spent a lot of time going around that trailer because the sheep knew where it was. LOL. I would think this was a training issue. Jodi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
btrent Posted October 22, 2007 Report Share Posted October 22, 2007 AHBA has four different courses: Ranch, Ranch Large Flock (RLF), HTAD (Arena with 4 course designs in that category) and HTD (which is just a border collie course such as you would find in Nov-Nov or a slightly shortened Pro-Nov). So you must look at the courses being offered at the trials you are considering, before making a choice. In the Ranch, Ranch Large Flock, or HTD, you can actually be working in a large field some or all of the time, so it cannot be said that AHBA trials are always in small arenas. There is always an outrun of some kind/length; there is always a drive, and in Ranch or RLF, always a sort. If your dog can work fowl as well as sheep, you will get multiple chances to run and practice with your dog on geese or ducks in addition to sheep and/or goats (and even sometimes cattle). We have few to no USBCHA Novice trials here any more. So it's true that AHBA is a good place to get trial experience if you are not quite ready for USBCHA Pro-Novice, or just want to work on your skills. I do not find AHBA particularly easy all the time. You must still work out the situation with your dog; you must have the same skill set that you need for USBCHA, just perhaps with slightly shorter distance (but not always). The last time I ran HTD, it was the same course and same distances on the same field where we last ran USBCHA Pro-Novice, however; so they were equal except for the stock. The HTD trial was on the farm flock of hair sheep; the USBCHA P-N trial was on goats. Each stock presented a challenge of its own and neither was "easy". As for cost, USBCHA trials out here cost around $40 per run; this is very similar to the cost for AHBA runs. I am willing to pay for those runs in order to get my dog(s) some experience in a trial on different sheep and at a different place. Yes it is a somewhat expensive practice, but well worth it. The value of the livestock and the care for the stock is greatly valued in AHBA. Good stockmanship is very important to me and that is one of the main reasons why I like doing AHBA trials and will continue to participate in the program and encourage others to do so. There are several USBCHA handlers participating in the AHBA trials that I go to; the standard of competent work is actually quite high here. thanks, --Billy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eileen Stein Posted October 22, 2007 Report Share Posted October 22, 2007 The last time I ran HTD, it was the same course and same distances on the same field where we last ran USBCHA Pro-Novice, however; so they were equal except for the stock. Billy, what was the distance of the outrun? Were the other elements the same as your Pro-Novice? Just curious, since I have never seen an HTD trial. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdarling Posted October 22, 2007 Report Share Posted October 22, 2007 Good post, Billy. I wasn't aware that AHBA had a "Ranch Large Flock" course. I'll have to look that up. It sounds like fun. I enjoy AHBA and ASCA trials. In my area, the main draw for me is the people. We've got a great ASCA club here that are a lot of fun. The club is very supportive, no matter what breed you have. And Border Collies don't always win. ASCA trials are judged more on overall ranch work, not particularly straight lines and making sure you hit all your panels. So the judging tends to be very subjective. Occasionally, you'll run into a judge that is breed prejudiced, and a Border Collie doesn't have a shot in winning, unless you can make your dog work like an Aussie ... but you didn't hear that from me. :-) ASCA also offers ducks. I, personally, have a love/hate relationship with ducks because of how true their heads are. Things can go wrong very quickly, however, it's great for fine-tuning flanks. Corrections for your dog are quick and easy because you don't have sheep in your way, and you are much more visible to the dog. AHBA trials are probably my favorite. My friend and I are putting on an AHBA trial here in a couple of weeks. We've opted for the HTAD course (something I've never done) and designed a really fun ranch course on a field large enough for a pro-novice course. There is no outrun, but there is quite a bit of pen work, gate sorting, driving, and free-standing obstacle work. I ran the course with a couple of different dogs to see how much time we should allot, and it seems like it will be a lot of fun. I think the main difference (and correct me if I'm wrong) is the way AHBA or ASCA trials are judged as opposed to what's expected out of you and your dog in an AKC trial. A majority of your score in AHBA and ASCA trials is overall effective stockwork. I used to trial in AKC trials (until I watched a conformation champion ... handled by a "professional" handler get its working championship, and then not be able to put the sheep away after the very same trial), and from what I remember, everything was about straight lines, and making sure all the sheep -- who were trained to the course quite well -- go through all the obstacles, but without much emphasis on good stockwork (not to mention all the politics of who was running what dog, and what lines the dog was out of). The way scoring works in AKC is needing at least 50% of your points on each obstacle to qualify. The more mechanical your dog is, the better your score, basically. Put those same AKC Champions out on a USBCHA course, and they have a hard time getting through a novice course. It speaks volumes. Do I feel that any of these courses are a true test of the Border Collie and any titles obtained therein should determine a dog's breedworthiness? Absolultely not. But I think they are a good way to get out there with your dog and do some very practical stockwork and gain some experience "going to the post" and getting your feet wet. Just my $.02, if it's even worth that much, Jodi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebecca, Irena Farm Posted October 22, 2007 Report Share Posted October 22, 2007 I hosted an AHBA trial and thought, like Julie, that it would be fun for an inexperienced or young dog. The Ranch course was cool - though I remember laying it out and then it turned out I'd misunderstood the requirements. I was astonished when they halved most of the distances and said the take pen setup was much too small (and yet they are always saying that non-BC breeds don't have outruns because they are bred to work in small pens?). Well, anyway, the price always quells any temptation I might have to participate. There's enough trials around here that I could run two times for the price of one AHBA run. The people with AHBA were very nice. As Billy said, I was impressed at their concern for the stock and in fact their deference to me as the owner of the stock and the farm owner. I do not think it's a good test of Border Collie abilities. With some tweaking, I think it offers a good basis for breeds which are defined (or supposedly defined) by "at hand" work - or to offer a standard for a particular type of work. One nice thing is that the venue offers lots and lots of leeway to set up the trial to suit the farm or ranch. I don't think either ASCA or AKC are like this, and even USBCHA style trials are rigid by comparison. For instance, my stock wasn't really all that dog broke, but they were very good natured about it and eve publicly said after the trial that it was a nice, challenging change. Most of their dogs did fine, so it worked okay and they got done what they wanted to do in terms of titles and whatnot. I'd love to see what the new class is all about. Sounds kind of fun. We worked ten head in our ranch classes and I was wishing we could set out twenty, but one of my sheep sources fell through. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laurie etc Posted October 22, 2007 Report Share Posted October 22, 2007 Billy, what was the distance of the outrun? Were the other elements the same as your Pro-Novice? Just curious, since I have never seen an HTD trial. The HTD Course we do (in VA) is about a 75 - 150 yd outrun (depends on which pasture gets used) and at level III, after the outrun the dog does what would be equal to a VBCA "ranch" course - basically dog drives from the post through 2 sets of panels, and then to the pen. Then dog brings sheep out of the pen and does either a shed or a "hold" with a ribbon pulled off one sheep. At lower levels, the outrun is not require to be as far (sheep are set out the same place, but handler and or dog have the option to move forward from the post up to certain points); and at level I handler wears the whole course. At level II handler wears through the first panels, and drives the 2nd, then meeting dog/sheep at the pen (handler can move from 1st pane, but can't cross an imaginary line from the panel to the post. (kind of an assisted or parallel drive). Since this venue is open to all breeds, the outrun is never as longs as it would be in a Border Collie trial, but it is as long as some novice/pro-novice trials I've been to in the VA/MD area. Personally, I like the AHBA trials; The HTD and Ranch classes are fun. The new Ranch Large Flock class is really fun and practical; dog gathers 25 sheep dumped out on a pasture to graze, then taking the sheep down a road to a different pasture, penning, gate sorting, pushing through a foot bath, and sometimes loading on a trailer. After that the dog takes them back up the road to exhaust them. And like someone mentioned, AHBA plus emphasis on stockmanship, so handlers have to learn to read and handle sheep, too. The Arena Trial is probably the most stressful to my dogs, with the precision required and not a lot of space to accomplish it in. Laurie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bo Peep Posted October 22, 2007 Report Share Posted October 22, 2007 I would think this was a training issue. Jodi Normally I would have thought that also, but it happened to every dog. The sheep at this particular event were just too dog broke. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
btrent Posted October 22, 2007 Report Share Posted October 22, 2007 Billy, what was the distance of the outrun? Were the other elements the same as your Pro-Novice? Just curious, since I have never seen an HTD trial. Hi Eileen, I am not good at distances without pacing it off...but my very loose guesstimate is somewhere over 100 and somewhere under 200 yards. The crossdrive was long in comparison, perhaps longer in the AHBA version than in the USBCHA version, but very similar. The same course that we ran for P-N was used for USBCHA Nursery. The same field was used for Open USBCHA with a slightly different length outrun and of course they did a shed or single as the judge requested... AHBA HTD is just a regular border collie course with outrun, lift, fetch, turn around the post, drive two panels, and pen; for the various AHBA levels the handler is allowed to move around. In Level III AHBA you have to stay at the post just like in USBCHA. Someone else may have posted this, sorry if there is duplication...in Level III AHBA HTD you also do a ribbon pull after the pen, in rare cases they will call for an actual shed. You don't see HTD as often any more since the HTAD got added into the mix...but I do enjoy the HTDs and try to go when they are available. I also really enjoy the large flock courses as does my dog Bid, he really gets into it and we enjoy the bigger fields. So I guess I have gravitated to what he likes, over the years. thanks, --Billy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OkieJenna Posted October 23, 2007 Author Report Share Posted October 23, 2007 Thank you so much everyone for all the informative posts. At least now if I decide to go to one of the trials I will have some sort of clue what they are expecting. The reason I asked about the hostility thing was that this spring I went to a playday for a club that wasn't USBCHA affiliated and after I mentioned that I would be starting at a novice USBCHA trial I felt like everyone shut me out. I just felt unwelcomed. I paid my dues to become a member of their club and I never got any information all year long about clinics, playdays, trials, nothing. I have even inquired about them twice and only got one reply that simply told me there was nothing going on that they knew of. All spring and summer long, with that many member, and nothing was going on at all? Couldn't help but feel no one took me seriously. Anyhow, again, thank you all so much! Jenna Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted October 23, 2007 Report Share Posted October 23, 2007 So what you're saying is you got hostility from the other organization's folks? That's kind of sad. They tout themselves as being all-inclusive, and that should include someone who wishes to do USBCHA stuff too. I would certainly inquire as to what sort of "perqs" you can expect for your dues money. One of the main reasons I join local HAs is so I can get the newsletter and know what's coming up and get the trial/clinic entry forms. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OkieJenna Posted October 24, 2007 Author Report Share Posted October 24, 2007 Yes, from the other organization's members. As far as inquiring about perks, I can't even get a reply from the only person I have contact info from. That is exactly why I paid my dues and wanted to be a member of their club, because I wanted to know things that were going on to get more experience for myself and my dogs. I'm not sure if people didn't take me seriously because I am young (early 20's) while most of them were in there 40's & 50's, maybe they were thinking I wasn't going to be in the game for long. I don't know, can't help but have my feelings hurt. I even tried to take some lessons there too, but at the time they said they weren't available. So when I was just starting out and seriously needed some help, I felt like no one wanted much to do with me. Did I cry and give up, nope just made me work harder and I went on to take 1st in novice at my last trial, Man did that feel good! LOL Jenna Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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