Hair sheep vs wool sheep

[Guest pax]

I have Kahtadins.

 

They are not tough to manage thus far. It's been a whole 6 months and nobody's dead yet. (Although the Dumb Brown Lamb has an appointment with a nice man in a white coat very soon.)

 

 

I need more sheep. I could probably go buy more Kahtadins somewhere.

 

I was wondering, though, about branching out.

 

You know how much I liked those Herdwicks and the Corriedales are kind of close.

 

Is it that much more difficult to manage wool sheep? With a whooping 6 monthes under my belt, am I safe to branch out a little?

 

Or should I wait through a lambing season, or something else that I might need educating about?

[kelpiegirl]

The thing about woolies is having to sheer them. If you can do this yourself, that's great, if not, then you have to find someone who will come out for only a few sheep, and that isn't always easy. I work with woolies, and I have to say that they are very easy keepers.

[Guest pax]

I already have a set of big clippers for the horses...I've body clipped horses before. I went and watched a professional work his way through a herdful of Texels, and I think sheep have a real advantage over horses in terms of shearing, and that is, you can flip them over. Do you know how many times I've wished I could set some horse on his butt?

 

 

Anyway, I'm not scared to lay hands on, in terms of shearing.

[juliepoudrier]

Celia,

I think in general wool sheep are less heat tolerant than hair sheep. You're further north than I am, but when it gets hot and humid in the summer plan on not being able to work them with dogs (or being able to work them only briefly). If I hadn't had a few hair sheep (Laura's sheep actually), working dogs this summer just wouldn't have happened at all--as it is we barely worked anyway because it was just too hot for any livestock to be run around. Breeds like border cheviots, Scottish blackface, and others of those type (used on the maternal side to create mules in the UK) are extremely hardy, good mothers, and can subsist on next to nothing and so can be good choices for starting out.

 

Julie's right that shearing can be an issue, but if you're willing to learn to do it yourself, then you should be okay. I would think you'd want to get combs and cutters meant for sheep and not for horses though. I never shaved my horses when I had them, but I can tell you that you can do some serious damage to your sheep if you don't know what you're doing when shearing (and I imagine you would wear out your horse clippers shearing sheep). I took a clinic in hand (blade) shearing before ever trying to shear with electric shears. Patty Abel on these boards uses quilting shears to do her tunis, so if you have just four or five sheep, you might find that hand shearing them with some sort of blades or scissors makes more sense than getting electric sheep shears. My best advice is to get someone who knows how to do it to show you how so that you don't make all the usual mistakes (okay, so you may make them anyway, but at least you'll have some basic idea of what to do). So to be trite, where there's a will.... Oh, another important factor for me is size. I'm not tiny by any means, but I really don't want to have to be turning 300 pound sheep either. My big BFL cross ram, who weighs maybe 250, is about as large as I'd ever want to go, and he's really too big for me to want to handle more than is absolutely necessary. I wouldn't want a whole flock his size.

 

Wool sheep do work differently than hair sheep, so if you're looking to broaden your and your dogs' horizons, you might want some. I would recommend getting either some hardy crossbreds from a *production* flock to start with, or if you are set on a particular breed, still try to get them from a production flock instead of a show flock. Before any show types take exception, the reason I make this recommendation is that most production flocks are expected to subsist on whatever is put before them, usually just pasture/hay. Many of the show type sheep have been raised for generations with lots of human intervention and so they just don't do well on a more minimal management system (that is, they require high-quality feeds, lambing help, etc., in order to thrive).

 

If you are interested in corriedales, Tom Forrester in Strasburg has an unregistered flock and might sell you a few. Doug Brewer is up that way in MD and I believe he has registered (show) corriedales, but don't quote me on that. I know Tom gets registered rams for breeding from Doug though, but requires that they not be the huge things seen in the show ring these days. Tom used to show corriedales and Doug still does I believe, so they could certainly steer you in the right direction. Tom F. is also a professional shearer and is more than willing to help people learn to shear their sheep. You might want to go to his trial in November and see the sheep for yourself. What I don't like so much about corriedales is that they have wool on their faces, which can lead to wool blindness (they can't see because of the wool). Obviously you can fix that by keeping the wool on their faces trimmed, and if you want sheep that react quite differently when being worked by a dog, a sheep that's wool blind or even partly blind because of wool on the face will definitely work differently than a clean-faced breed or hair sheep. I just prefer the look of the open-faced breeds, but then Tom would tell you I have a screw loose anyway since I have karakuls.... (FWIW, I don't much like hair sheep at all, but would keep woolies any day.)

 

J.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

I like wool sheep far better, but I'm choosy about what kind. I don't like Cheviots that much and not so much Blackface - pretty to look at, too nutty for my taste. I was pretty much done with big giant breeds after I had four Polypays kick the bucket basically from starvation, standing in a field of grass.

 

I like the bigger cleanfaced breeds, Leisters and NCCs, and related breeds, plus I love Dorsets - production type, of course. Tunis do extremely well in this area. The Dorsets have very light wool that is relatively easy to shear, and although the Leisters and NCCs get a full fleece, legs, face, and even some bellies tend to be clean.

 

I have a friend who clipped three or four wool sheep she had in her flock with dog clippers. The point of sheep combs and blades is to allow you to go a lot faster - the wool is fed in correctly (assuming you're holding the things right). But if you've clipped a lot of horses you'll just need to go really, really slow. The horse clippers have more power than dog clippers, obviously, but the thing is staying in the right place to cut where it's cleanest and easiest and the hair comb will feed very slowly. You'll probably find after you do the first one, that you'll want a shearer head for your clippers if they have an exchangeable head.

 

I had someone come over to help with shearing one time and even with my inexpert demonstration, she ended up better than me by the end of the day! She had also clipped a lot of horses and said there wasn't much difference - just in the power and speed of the shears. She even showed me where I was going wrong and mucking up my combs! Who was teaching who, hmm?

 

I'm actually toying with the idea of going back to some hair. There's someone in the Richmond-ish area of VA who does St. Croixs I just found out and I'm planning to go take a look at her flock. I saw some at our county fair and was fairly ( ) impressed. Those are hair sheep, very hardy but with better carcass quality (potentially) than a lot of katadhins. I thought for a moment that ones I saw were white Dorpers! Anyway, I didn't think there was anyone producing them close by.

[hsnrs]

We like our St. Croix ewes; great mothers.

[Bill Fosher]

You couldn't pay me enough to shepherd a flock of St. Croix or Barbados up here in New England. But they are the bomb in arid country, I gather. I don't care much for the hair sheep that are more common in Northern climates either: Katahdins and Dorpers. Katahdins seem like decent enough maternal sheep, but they don't have the sort of carcass that I'm looking for (or that my customers have come to expect). The Dorpers I've raised were notorious for stalling out at 80 lbs and taking for - ev - er to finish. Both breeds also don't fit in real well with a low-input system that includes wintering outside in our climate.

 

From a purely economic standpoint, the savings of not having to shear is more than offset by the loss of carcass quality and growth rate in the lambs of hair sheep versus wooly production sheep.

 

I should point out that when I talk about wool sheep, I do not mean the same thing as some southern and western producers, for whom wool sheep are Columbia/Rambouillet crosses which are not known for carcass quality or growth traits. I'm talking more about the British and Continental long- and medium-wool breeds from Cheviots and Leicesters to Dorset, Texel, and Ile de France.

[Little Bo Boop]

I love my hair sheep. I've had Dorpers for about 2 years now (not that long I know) but they seem to be pretty much worry free, very good mothers...they are great for working the dogs, and they seem to be very sensible (if sheep can be called sensible ) I think they're great. Plus in our Texas heat....wool sheep would not be the happiest of campers. Even the Dorpers I back off working them in the heat of the summer, early in the morning and I keep a close eye on them. Wool sheep...I don't think I'd even attempt to work in this heat and Humidity.

 

As far as the meat goes, wow Bill if you have lamb that tastes any better than Dorper I'd like to try it ;-) the legs of lamb that I've marinated and cooked on the grill...you'd be hard pressed not to think it wasn't prime rib. It is some tasty meat OMHO!

[juliepoudrier]

Little Bo Boop,

I think most folks think that their breed of choice is the tastiest ever.

 

J.

[1sheepdoggal]

I have had both wollies,( colombian and suffolk) and hair sheep ( katahdin and St. Croix). Personally from a feeding standpoint, I prefer the Hair sheep as opposed to the woolies. And then there "IS" the shearing of the woolies too, which if ya dont have enough sheep to produce enough wool to market, just seems like adding extra work to your day. When I first got my first flock of hair sheep, within a couple of days of having them, I called the fella I bought them from, telling him there must be some thing wrong with the sheep I had just purchased from him. He asked why did I think that, and I told him that they werent eating much at all. He laughed at me for a minuet, (knowing I had just sold all my wollies) and said, "Yer gonna love these hair sheep, as they eat so much less!" And they do. I originally bought Katahdin, and then borrowed a St Croix ram, to add size to the lambs. Last years first crop, turned out some nice sized lambs, and one of the rams I kept, is a little over a yr old, and is weighing out right now to be about 160lbs. (This pic was taken of him just under 1yr old) I also had some problems with the wollies jumping fences and havent had the hair sheep attempt it. They are a bit faster, and less apt to challenge too, in my experience. Good luck in your decision.

[Patty Abel]

Sounds like you have lots of animal husbandry skills already and probably won't have troubles by doubling your herd...just make sure they're healthy. I never had farm animals before July of '06. I bought my sheep from someone that was switching woolies to hair. My flock of eight was fun...so I added four more, then the herd more than doubled with this year's lambs, ..I don't feed them anything but the grass on the ground, but clearing ground is their job, I don't work my dogs on them much. The ewes lounge around most of the day and eat from sunset to sunrise. I did give the nursing moms a little lamb chow during that awful ice storm. The lambs have never had grain/corn and turn their noses up at it. They are a very easy bunch to keep, don't try the old wobbly fences, easy to work with. I taught myself to shear after watching Kevin Ford. I cover the nice fleeces, so flopping them over and cutting the dirty stuff off first is the simplest for me, then I tie them to a post and take the cover off and shear the nice wool while they stand. I take my time and enjoy the job. I did one the other day 40 mins start to finish. Like Julie said, with scissors. My biggest issue with the Tunis is their incredibly fast growing hooves.

[Bill Fosher]

I wasn't talking about the taste of the meat. Carcass quality is a combination of muscle:bone ratio, loin eye area, and fat cover. Under three different feeding systems (pasture, pasture plus grain, and intensive feeding indoors) the Dorper and Dorper cross lambs were consistently poorer and slower growing than Texel and Texel cross lambs on my farm. We raised about 500 of each for three years in a row.

 

The one place where the Dorpers were the best was in hothouse lamb production. The hothouse market wants a 40 to 60 lb liveweight lamb fat off the mother. They would hit those weights and conditions faster than any other. But after that they stalled out. Getting one to 120 lbs to make a decent freezer lamb was just about impossible.

 

But once they got there, the meat was just as tasty as any other.

[Little Bo Boop]

I wasn't talking about the taste of the meat. Carcass quality is a combination of muscle:bone ratio, loin eye area, and fat cover. Under three different feeding systems (pasture, pasture plus grain, and intensive feeding indoors) the Dorper and Dorper cross lambs were consistently poorer and slower growing than Texel and Texel cross lambs on my farm. We raised about 500 of each for three years in a row.

 

The one place where the Dorpers were the best was in hothouse lamb production. The hothouse market wants a 40 to 60 lb liveweight lamb fat off the mother. They would hit those weights and conditions faster than any other. But after that they stalled out. Getting one to 120 lbs to make a decent freezer lamb was just about impossible.

 

But once they got there, the meat was just as tasty as any other.

 

 

 

Just out of curiousity Bill do you think that the hair sheep might not prosper in your part of the country, just due to the fact that they really aren't geared for your kind of WX? Weren't they bred to thrive in hot arid climate? I will say this, my sheep are pretty much sissies when it comes to the WX. it starts to rain or gets cold, they high tail it for the barn and under cover. The Rambouilettes on the other hand never came up looking for shelter, and were quite happy out grazing in the rain and cold....

[Bill Fosher]

The lambs never had anything that I would consider challenging weather to contend with once they were weaned -- unless cold means 45 degrees F. And I didn't find them partiucarly heat-tolerant either. They succumbed to parasites and pneumonia at about the same rate as the wooly crosses in late July/early August when we have our worst heat and humidity.

 

I think the Dorper breed has suffered from the "latest-and-greatest" syndrome: breeders found they had a market for more breeding stock than they could produce, and as a result a lot of rams that should have been sold for market were sold as breeders. In most cases, it should only be the top 1 percent of rams that are used for breeding. In rare instances, you might push that to 10 percent. I encountered Dorper breeders who were selling 50 to 75 percent of their ram lambs as breeders. So there are some good ones out there, but there's a lot more chaff than wheat.

 

In your part of the country, it's much more likley that there are locally-adapted hair sheep. They've been around Texas longer, and in larger numbers, which allows better selection. So we may actually be talking about two different kinds of sheep.

 

And, if I had to chose between a flock of Dorpers and a flock of Rambouillets, I would take the Dorpers hands down. How Rambos became the backbone of the western sheep industry remains a mystery to me. Rotten mothers, poor milkers, low lamb vigor, very poor carcass quality, and a willingness to die that I've never seen in any animal of any species. I'm sure hair sheep look great by comparison!

 

Did I mention that I don't like Rambouillets?

[Guest pax]

Well, I've been following along, listening, and I'm learning a lot, so thank you all.

 

I like my Katahdins in that they've been idiot-proof so far. That's probably not much of a priority, compared to others, but it's mine.

 

The only reason I'd branch out is to work something substantially different with the dogs.

 

My sheep don't really need to pay for themselves, but neither do I want to purposefully (and yet ignorantly) get myself involved in a kind of sheep that are not so robust. Just in case what's held my little flock together has been dumb luck and not ok management, you know?

 

So let me re-phrase this...

 

 

Which are the hothouse orchid sheep you wouldn't raise in a million years?

 

What do you like to work, all other things being equal?

 

And...I'm good on the clippers. I don't have the right blades, but those are easy enough to buy. If I can clip a 1000 lb horse seamlessly, I can knock out a sheep to moth eaten standards, at least. I think. I even have a clipping outfit that lives in a bag in the barn during clipping out season, which, sadly, is coming up now.

 

 

I want you all to know I thank you for your time and opinions. I'm not dismissing the value of paying attention to the things like getitng them finished up properly and maximizing my investment, those are good things to do. I'm just still in the "holy crap I haven't killed them yet" mode.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

I'm just still in the "holy crap I haven't killed them yet" mode.

 

That's quite all right - I feel like I'm just coming out of that after ten years. Every time something changes I find a new way to drop condition and I go, "Holy crap, why didn't I see THAT coming?" I've just now started getting sensitive to maximizing the reproductive cycle (not that I didn't before, but I usually ended up overthinking something and coming out pretty much even), and being a hardliner on improving my stock's performance as meat animals.

 

The other day I found myself, to my surprise, looking for a market for the three first lambs I got from my new BFL ram, because they are way out of synch with the others and unless I manage them well, will either be bred too soon, or end up bred way out of synch with the others themselves. Not too long ago I wouldn't have considered selling them on because they are extremely nice lambs and were born to early breeders, and they were my first from Handsome - sentimental value. But there's a good chance that it will be two years before they can add to the flock because of how late they were born. I will be posting signs for them at the local feed stores and most likely I can make something for them as club lambs (we have a spring show near here).

[stockdogranch]

If you're just looking for variety for the dogs, I always like to keep a few Suffolks in my group--they tend to not want to stick with the others much, so require that the dog learn to keep them together. I also keep a few Ramboulliets (sorry, Bill), as they tend to challenge a dog, which I think is a good thing. I also have a variety of different wool breeds--some Romneys, some Karakuls, and some Finn-Merino crosses thrown in just for fun. Since mine is NOT a commercial flock, and is used primarily for the dogs, I like a variety of different breeds--that way, I always have something that will give a dog different challenges,

A

[juliepoudrier]

So let me re-phrase this...

Which are the hothouse orchid sheep you wouldn't raise in a million years?

 

What do you like to work, all other things being equal?

Celia,

I think some of the decisionmaking process has to include what you personally like WRT to sheep breeds. Suffolks (since Anna mentioned them) can be good sheep, if you can find some from a production flock that are actually able to maintain condition without constant care. Most suffolks, because they are popular as club lambs, are geared to being raised on maximum feed input and these same sheep often have difficulties lambing and are not necessarily very good mothers (the club/show sheep, NOT anything from production flocks). Not to mention the extremely short docks that cause prolapse problems....

 

Anyway, I wouldn't raise Suffolks (even the production variety) because I don't particularly like them (I have worked them, though, and at least the flock I worked didn't seem particularly heavy, despite their reputation for heaviness). I don't mind Rambouillets as far as sheep go, except that I just don't particularly like their looks. I got my Scottish blackface originally because they could be challenging to dogs *and* I liked the way they looked so that when I looked out in the pasture I enjoyed the view. That may be something of a silly reason, but then again, I think it's kind of like dogs--you'll put up with more from the ones you have an affinity for. And if you're just keeping a few for dog training purposes, qualities like being able to live on air and being able to birth a lamb(s) no matter what the conditions might not be as important to you.

 

Lots of folks like dorsets (again the production kind) and crosses thereof. I personally like my purebred sheep, but then again, I'm raising sheep for conservation purposes, so even when others make fun of my "mutant sheep" (karakuls) that's okay. I like them. So I guess I didn't really answer your question about what not to get so much as say find something you like and get that. Unless you have very specific traits you want for dog working, in which case you'd need to talk to the folks that have those particular sheep breeds to see if they match your needs. FWIW, the heaviest sheep I've ever worked were dorpers and dorper crosses. Followed by some of the border cheviot ewes belonging to Henry Kuykendall (they won't tolerate a dog working too close and so turn and fight or refuse to move instead of running, which is pretty much the opposite of what I've heard of and experienced with most border cheviots, including my own. In fact when Tony had his novice trial last year, we used those cheviots for ranch and nursery and they were hard to move, compared to the tunis used for the lower classes, which tended to run like the wind!). Other factors relating to working depend on how they've been handled by dogs in the past, whether they have wooly faces and wool blindness, and flocking tendency (e.g., Welsh mountain sheep tend not to flock). If your main purpose is dog training, I like Anna's idea of having several different breed representatives--then you can probably mix and match and change the flock dynamic for training purposes.

 

I don't know if that's much help, but there it is....

 

J.

[Little Bo Boop]

I don't mind Rambouillets as far as sheep go, except that I just don't particularly like their looks.

 

you ain't kiddin'! Although I do think they're kind of neat looking, you should see the range ewes we have at the Texas state finals holy moly those are some scary looking sheep! They all look like X prize fighters ;-) they are rough now! I actually wondered if they'd bite I think some of the dogs wondered the same thing

[Bill Fosher]

I also keep a few Ramboulliets (sorry, Bill)

 

No need to apologize. Just don't ask me to farmsit, because I don't seem to be able to get within 50 feet of a rambo with having it roll over on its back and put its feet in the air.

[stockdogranch]

Cracked me up!!

A

[workindogs]

And, if I had to chose between a flock of Dorpers and a flock of Rambouillets, I would take the Dorpers hands down. How Rambos became the backbone of the western sheep industry remains a mystery to me. Rotten mothers, poor milkers, low lamb vigor, very poor carcass quality, and a willingness to die that I've never seen in any animal of any species. I'm sure hair sheep look great by comparison!

 

Did I mention that I don't like Rambouillets?

 

Meeker Girls

 

Bill

 

These healthy beautiful girls dare you to say that to their faces.....at next year's Meeker!

 

Seriously, I have no clue why anyone would consider raising fine wools in anything other than a dry climate.

 

I keep a fine wool x (Rambo/Targhee/Finn) that are fabulous mothers, big producers, healthy sheep and survive on extremely poor, weedy pasture .... and keep condition. The cross certainly improves some of the Rambo qualities. However, this is dryland pasture in a dry western climate.

 

 

 

In the whole scheme of things, I much prefer wool sheep......I just got rid of my St Croix ewes....nothing wrong with them in terms of health or mothering. However, I didn't have a market for such skinny small lambs. I'd rather invest my time and effort and poor pasture in better producing sheep that produce growthy lambs with good carcass.

 

Wool sheep, part. fine wools, are terrible in the summer and don't hold up well to excessive dog training. For that, I do keep a group of St Croix wethers.

 

I'd guess that Border Cheviot, NC Cheviot.....or perhaps Dorset (certainly not my favorite....can you say pig)....might be better production sheep for your part of the world.

 

Anyone ever try a commercial Montadale?

[Bill Fosher]

Anyone ever see a commercial Montadale?

 

But Elizabeth is right: climate (and adaptation to it) makes so much of a difference. The western sheep I have worked with and imported myself were not adapted to our humidity and damp soils. Their feet fell apart, they got fly strike, and they couldn't eat enough of our wet, bulky pasture to satisfy their needs.

[Pipedream Farm]

Elizabeth,

 

We'll be running on a flock of Montadale later this month.

 

OCT 20, 21 2/O - 2/N LEXINGTON SDT LEXINGTON, VA DAVID CLARK 540-463-4426 cbranibar@rockbridge.net

 

Mark

[Pipedream Farm]

Bill,

 

Wouldn't you expect lambs from larger breeds to reach 120 lbs faster than lambs from smaller breeds?

 

Texel adult ewes: 150-200lbs

Dorper adult ewes: 120-180lbs

Katahdin adult ewes: 120-160lbs

 

Mark