Herding Cats

[Kayleegator]

OK, thirteen-week-old Kaylee has pretty much exiled two of my three cats from the house. One camps on top of a kitchen cabinet. The other two have become night visitors, creeping cautiously in for food and strokes after Kaylee is in her crate.

 

I think we missed the window, got a puppy a little bit too old for the cats to teach. They are really afraid of her, although she's never hurt any of them. She had a kitten to play with at her first home, and is just interested. I'm working with her to teach 'Off', to leave the cat alone (this is the kitchen cat, usually on a counter, for this encounter), and she's responding well...

 

BUT on Saturday last, friends were over, we were dining happily in the gazebo, and the senior cat, who has regally ruled the back yard for a year now, went streaking by with Kaylee in full tilt persuit. I had never seen either of them run that fast, wow! I tackled Kaylee and the cat made it up the fence, but I'm afraid the damage is done: cat herding is big fun. Cat is a tough, athletic old girl, who was the only one to stand up to the pup and give her what for when the nose got too close, but she's been hanging out next door since this incident.

 

This is OK for the time being, but the weather is going to change before too terribly long, and I want my kitties to be able to come home.

 

I should mention that Kaylee is usually off-leash in the back yard under closer supervision, as I've got to teach her about appropriate places to dig and garden beds to stay out of. Further complicated now by the cat thing.

 

We have just started clicker training and targeting, and she's responding very well, of course.

 

Suggestions?

[nancy in AZ]

No suggestions, but speaking of herding cats, ever seen this?

 

 

[luv2napp]

The only thing I can tell you is what I do. I've had my cat for 12 years, and she's always been an indoor/outdoor cat. She has a cat door whereever we live. When I got my two BC's, she was constantly being chased and stalked. To this day, Lacee still herds her and they've been together for seven years. Right now, we live in a three level townhouse and have a baby gate blocking the basement. Annie has the run of that floor, plus being able to come and go outside as she pleases. It's worked for us, although I still would like Lacee to quit chasing her. Can't we all just get along??

[luv2napp]

No suggestions, but speaking of herding cats, ever seen this?

 

Too funny!!

[Kayleegator]

Yes, thank you, Nancy, for the Herding Cats clip, I've sent it round to many who will roar with laughter...

[Carson Crazies]

One thing that may help would be to put up some baby gates that the cats can squeeeeeeze under, or jump over, but the pupper cannot. Give them their own room where they can escape to, eat their food in peace, etc.

 

Thing about chasing things (and it *is* chasing - your pup cannot herd something that is not a herd animal, and cats are NOT herd animals ) is that each time your pup succeeds in chasing the cat it's reinforced for chasing the cat. You'll want to put an immediate stop to it. I would start with a long line or even a leash for outside time, start teaching the dog a recall, and be extra diligent about not giving the opportunity to chase the cats.

 

There are several schools of thought on how to stop a dog from chasing a cat or other animal. You can correct the dog for doing it, or train an incompatible behavior, or both. Whatever method you choose remember to be fair and consistent. I don't think at this point you can count on the cats to teach her the lesson - I think you'll have to do it.

[painted_ponies]

I tried a bunch of different things with Faith, my cat-chaser, and the only thing that worked was a five minute time out in her crate each and every time she did it. I still have to reinforce this occasionally, but she pretty much has the idea that chasing cats=pup in crate all by herself.

 

I think it's dangerous to allow cat-chasing, because it can be followed by cat-nipping, cat-biting, cat-shaking, or doG forbid, cat-injuring or -killing. You're right to put a stop to it now.

[juliepoudrier]

Chasing (and as Laura pointed out, chasing is not herding, it's chasing, that is, prey drive) anything inappropriate is one of the few times when I won't hesitate to use negative reinforcement or punishment. The life of the smaller animal is at stake, even if the dog had no real intention of killing at the outset (i.e., chase turns into kill in the blink of an eye with no forethought from the dog). I mean for my pups or dogs to learn that chasing small animals is NOT ACCEPTABLE behavior and I won't hesitate to snatch a pup or dog up and have a "come to Jesus" meeting with it for chasing, say, my chickens or my cats. Before anyone cries foul re: punishment, punishment does not mean beating the dog, but it does mean letting the dog know in no uncertain terms that the human is *extremely unhappy* with the dog's behavior. As I've said many times before, I had cats first and I have brought in adult rescues, purchased puppies, and purchased adults and have not had a problem teaching any of them to leave the cats and chickens alone (I have tiny bantams, and one misplaced snap or even pounce from a dog could kill them). The cats do have areas of the house that are baby gated off from the dogs, but the cats also have free run inside and out (and the chickens are free range) and the dogs know they better not bother them. Like Laura said, you have to be absolutely consistent. The pup can *never* be allowed to get away with chasing, which means you have to constantly supervise and correct if she so much as looks at the cats cross-eyed.

 

Generally, unless the dog is really hard core, getting in its face and letting it know you are unhappy is enough to teach it to leave the smaller animals alone. But you do need to nip it in the bud now.

 

J.

[smileyzookie]

100% agreed with Julie. It is NOT EVER ok to chase the kitty. Never never never.

[PSmitty]

Ditto Julie and Laura. I, too, have a room that is a dog free zone, for the cats. But any dog coming into my house learns that cat chasing is a big time no-no. Usually for mine, all it takes is a "AHHHHT! LEAVE IT!", but until your pup understands what you want, she may have to drag a line, so that you can put an immediate stop to it. You'll have to verbally correct her, the instant you see her eyeing the cat, then probably reel her back on the line, while telling her to "leave it", or whatever you want to use. If she keeps it up after doing this for a few days, then I like Julie's "come to Jesus" meeting. For me, that's get in her little face and get stern. Not abusive, of course, but it's a serious message that I'm not sure stuff like clickers is going to accomplish.

 

Sally's time outs are a good idea, too. In fact, you can use a combination of all of the above.

 

I have no doubt that Kaylee can learn this, just start now and be consistent. That includes everyone in the house, too. Good luck!

[Laura (Cady and Koda's mom)]

I have cat chasers too - unfortunately, one cat that taunts them - so it's as much the cat's fault. The cats have a dog free zone - plus plenty of high up places to lounge. To gate off the dog free zone I got this gate and it works for us. That way the cats have the full run of the house, but can escape if need be.

[sandra s.]

You'll have to verbally correct her, the instant you see her eyeing the cat

 

I think this is important: to start correcting her when she gets the intention of chasing, not when she's already running and "deaf".

 

Luckily our cat "trained" both dogs to have some respect...now we have two cat stalkers instead of chasers . The cat door to the outside is in the kitchen, and the kitchen door is normally shut, so the cat has her own room (and that pseudo-stealthy crunching from the kitchen cannot occur with the kitchen door shut. Those two dogs would be ever so p*ssed off if I actually started feeding them cat kibble, but they're after it because it's the cat's) .

[Kayleegator]

I have been strict with her, and she knows now that to even fix her eyes on a cat gets heavy warning from me, and so far, she's being good. Cats don't believe it for a second.

 

I do not use the crate as punishment, it's her bed, but she does NOT like the God Gun, a spray bottle with water, which I have used on her three times, when she needed to understand that I REALLY MEAN IT. At this point all I have to do is pick it up and show it to her, and she bees just as good as gold. So far I've only reached for it when she would not stop her mouthiness.

 

Outside, I'm just going to have to keep her long-leashed and tethered for a good while then, with a spray bottle outside, as well.

 

I am thinking how we can create cat sanctuary in our cottage: it's not easy.

 

I've got no BCs to compare her to, but I think she's come a long way in the two weeks we've had her. This morning I told her to go get her tug, and she went in the other room, got the toy out of the toy box, brought it back to me and gave it up when asked. I can see the little cogs whirring in that baby BC brain. She is learning, and she is trying to please.

 

This is a challenge for us: we can do it. Advise is very much appreciated.Smi

[MrSnappy]

I am thinking how we can create cat sanctuary in our cottage: it's not easy.

 

Well, I did it in a 450 square foot bachelor apartment, so I'm sure you'll figure out a way. Like Laura, I have a gate that the cats can get through but the dogs cannot. Unlike Laura (apparently) I am super cheap and didn't buy the fancy one though- it's a home made job. The cats have the bathroom and entry way. It's a PITA, because I have to unlatch the gate every time I want to use the bathroom, exit my apartment, answer the entry phone - but it's still possible.

 

And like Julie, in our household cat-chasing results in a "My way or the highway" discussion with the offending dog. My biggest dog is 50 lbs, my smallest cat is 5 lbs. It's not a fair fight, and so there will BE no fight in my house. Period.

 

RDM

[Pippin's person]

Like others--we had the cats first; we have several dog-free spaces (and those are reinforced no questions or complaints). We allow some supervised play with the cats since two of the cats LOVE it. One of our cats goes out of his way to find Kyzer to play with. That said, outright chasing is taboo and no play happens without adults in the room.

 

When we got our mutt, Renzo, all of our cats moved to the basement and he was a horrible cat chaser. In addition to teaching him not to chase (using both corrections and reinforcement--negative and positive--ETA, we didn't knowingly use negative reinforcement), we also worked on training the cats not to run--and really there was only one who did. What worked for us was counter-conditioning both of them with roast beef (e.g. when they were next to each other calmly, magic presto roast beef appeared--it didn't take much more than a week to have cat stop running and dog stop chasing).

[Kayleegator]

What worked for us was counter-conditioning both of them with roast beef (e.g. when they were next to each other calmly, magic presto roast beef appeared--it didn't take much more than a week to have cat stop running and dog stop chasing).

 

Man, you could train ME with roast beef! I'm not sure I want to share.

 

Freezedried chicken chips are appreciated by both dog and kitchen cat: I'll start with that. The cats who are staying outside are mother & daughter, and are each a bit freaky in her own way. They are more of a challenge.

 

Creating a dog-free zone is problematic with my particular layout, but I'm trying to think it through. The cat door is in the bedroom with the door to the yard. The cat food is in the kitchen in a protected spot under a bench, and Kaylee respects that very well. My office could be gated, but the cats have to get there, and have to know to go there...

[IronHorse]

Nancy,

Thanks for the laugh,that vid cracked me up.

Sent it to a couple of my cattle rancer friends,told them Ya know guys the price of hay is going to really be high this winter,,maybe you need to switch stock.

 

I personally would never cohabitate with a cat but I sure as hell won't allow my dogs to shag one down to torment.

 

ETA; now my policy slackens up conciderably if a feral cat decides to get to familiar with the chicken coop.

[nancy in AZ]

My biggest dog is 50 lbs, my smallest cat is 5 lbs. It's not a fair fight, and so there will BE no fight in my house. Period.

 

RDM

 

I'll say it's not a fair fight!! Although my point of view is likely a bit different from yours, if you'll recall...

 

http://www.bordercollie.org/boards/index.php?showtopic=13826

[juliepoudrier]

I'll say it's not a fair fight!! Although my point of view is likely a bit different from yours, if you'll recall...

 

http://www.bordercollie.org/boards/index.php?showtopic=13826

Realistically speaking, if Boo had wanted to (or been allowed to) fight back, he could have killed the crazed kitty in a heartbeat. But then we're not really talking about cats going after a dog to (presumably) protect their young; we're talking about pups getting in the habit of chasing the household cats.

 

Ironhorse,

My cats have even been taught to leave the bantam chicks alone. It would be stretching it to let the itty bitty chicks out, but when the larger fully feathered chicks are allowed the freedom to roam, the cats know to leave them be (although rats, mice, shrews, etc., are all fair game).

 

J.

[MrSnappy]

Realistically speaking, if Boo had wanted to (or been allowed to) fight back, he could have killed the crazed kitty in a heartbeat.

 

Two of my dogs are more than capable of killing cats, and I'd wager that the number of cats killed by dogs is a hell of a lot higher than the number of dogs killed by cats in this world.

 

I'm sorry that happened to your dog, Nancy, but it's far from a regular occurrence. However, allowing the family dog to harass, bother or chase the household cat is just asking for trouble. And since most people who keep cats seem to actually like them, they probably don't want to see them harmed.

 

RDM

[IronHorse]

Ironhorse,

My cats have even been taught to leave the bantam chicks alone. It would be stretching it to let the itty bitty chicks out, but when the larger fully feathered chicks are allowed the freedom to roam, the cats know to leave them be (although rats, mice, shrews, etc., are all fair game).

 

J.

Oh I know what your saying,I'm talking about that stray feral cat that wanders through the property and decides it likes chicken better then field mice etc.

wouldn't take me long to weigh the worth of a prime laying hen over the tick ridden wildcat, about as long as it takes to aim and shoot,end of lesson unless my aim is poor.Its not an occurance that comes up often,,maybe twice in the last decade or more.I would never risk one of my dogs to such a task,their eyes are far to valuable.

A fight between a dog and a feral cat will go in the dogs favor the vast majority of the time,but don't think a feral cat can't seriously damage the dog during the struggle.

[IronHorse]

Two of my dogs are more than capable of killing cats, and I'd wager that the number of cats killed by dogs is a hell of a lot higher than the number of dogs killed by cats in this world.

 

RDM

Lots of sizes of cats in the world and if we're talking the entire feline species and the whole world,I'd wager its probably alot more balanced then one would assume.

There was an incident not more then 50 miles from me a year or 2 back where a cougar had aquired a taste for dog and it pretty much dissimated the outdoor dog population within a few small towns before the situation was dealt with.

an encounter between your typical pet dog and a bobcat,,the dog is at a disadvantage.

City pet dogs and pet cats,,Yea I would agree the dog most likely would kill the neighbors cat,,,,but take that same city dog and put him in the country he isn't going to be nearly as capable against that city cats counterpart.

[juliepoudrier]

Oh come on--we're not talking about cougars here or the entirety of feline species in the world--we're talking about household pets! Yes, even a housecat can seriously damage a dog, especially if it's fighting for its life, but the OP was talking about her pet cats and her puppy--and I think it's fair to say that a *domestic* (or feral) cat is more likely to come out on the losing end of a fight with a dog; even a small dog is more than capable of killing the average domestic cat. The point is to teach the pup not to chase cats, period. Or if you get a kick out of siccing your dog on the feral cat who might go after your chickens and you also have pet cats, then you might need to teach your dog a command to let it know the difference. (Note: I am not personally advocating teaching any pet animal to chase and kill another, pet animals by my definition does not include livestock guardians. If I'm having a problem with a predator going after my livestock, I think it is my responsibility to eliminate the problem. I wouldn't want to count on my dogs because as others have noted, we shouldn't expect the dog to be able to determine the difference between "friend" cat and "foe" cat.)

 

J.

[nancy in AZ]

I'm sorry that happened to your dog, Nancy, but it's far from a regular occurrence.

However, allowing the family dog to harass, bother or chase the household cat is just asking for trouble. And since most people who keep cats seem to actually like them, they probably don't want to see them harmed.

 

RDM

 

 

I am aware of that, and I should probably have used an emoticon or something to indicate my comment was meant to be taken somewhat tongue in cheek. I just found the comment I responded to ironic in light of my recent experience with Boo. So just for the record, I couldn't agree more with your point.

[SincereArtisan]

I agree with stopping the chasing before it starts. Is there any way you can set your dog up?

 

For this you'll need a fantastic training tool consisting of nothing more than a cloth bag filled with a few simple links of heavy chain.

 

Perhaps have one of your cats, closed in a room, a bathroom perhaps, and some one standing by that door. You, in another room, but where the cat will be visible when it walks by, standing with your dog in a down-stay slightly behind you. Have your friend release the cat...once your dog sees the cat , watch her, because BEFORE she can start to bolt for it, should she make ONE MOVE towards anything to do with that cat, hurl that bag of chain to the ground as hard as possible--don't hit the dog!--and stomp your emphasis with whatever sharp word you use for correction. (In this household, its your typical "Aaah!")

 

It startles them, its coming from YOU, and its one way to exhibit your displeasure without getting very physical. And it orients the correction with the behavior that was just about to happen, and it makes the mere thought of chasing cats a little less than desirable when she knows that some god awful scary noise will befall her, topped with your displeasure, should she give in to temptation. I've seen this simple method correct tons of problems...but don't forget the positive reinforcement when they are together, and calm, the "calm with kitty = magic roast beef" is a good tactic, but first you need to get her to stop chasing them.