The HrrGrr Chonicles. . .

[clara]

Since we're talkin' politics on the other thread, I thought I'd let you know that I've been a lurker on this one, following your progress. Congratulations on distance you've come with him and good on ya for giving this beautiful guy a second chance!

[KellyR]

Well, we had a lil setback this morning. Not bad but time for a big sigh.

 

I got up, let him out to put his leash on, which went fine, as always, then noticed he'd peed in his crate. Ok, fine. So I get an old towel to clean the crate out. He starts lapping the room, over the bed, out to the hall, and back to his daytime corner. Rinse, repeat. Then all the sudden, he stops on the bed and lays down. He's NEVER done that. Then I smell it. DOG POO!

 

I'm like, aww fark.

 

I walk over and sure enough he's pooped all down the back of his legs, not squirts, but soft enough to catch his tail and haunches, and.. its all over the covers of the freshly made bed. I admit, I lost my temper, smacked his nose and yelled, he jumped down.. I tore the bed down, put him in the batroom for the time being and went to Petsmart, bought anti-bacterial dog shampoo came back and he got his first official bath with sun dried brushing to followup. He did look beautiful tho. I realized later that I should have noticed that the laps=gotta poo dad! I was wrong. I'm human, I screwed up.

 

So then we're all happy, hunky dory again and at lunch go for a walk in the park. Here comes this one guy with a english mastiff (unaltered) thats VERY aggressive. So I have to pick HrrGrr up to get him out of harms way. He didn't like that at all, CRACK into the left side of my jaw with his skull, then a quick nip again to my left jawline. Shit. Down to the ground he goes, scruffed to submission, then RIGHT back up to being carried in a quick 2 seconds. So now, each walk will have at least 2 carry sessions to reinforce the point that he has to bear that.

 

So we're back home now, at the moment he's in time out in the kitchen away from everything but water. He does eat by hand at night sometimes if he's hungry enough tho, so thats good news.

[mbc1963]

Whew! Bad day!

 

But remember, that's all it is. You can't control the variables (mastiffs) you run into, so you just have to deal with them the best way you can at the moment. A lot of times I second-guess my reactions after they've happened, but it's easy to judge yourself in the cool, calm space of your living room. Making the right decision in a heated encounter is a lot harder. Go easy on yourself!

 

HrrGrr looks like he's well on his way. It interests me that in all the pictures, he's facing away from you. I couldn't get my dog to look me in the face long enough for a decent picture for a LONG time! Similar reactions.

 

Mary

[Guest WoobiesMom]

Completely off topic but all this time I thought you were a woman!!! All I've known are female Kellys so I ASSumed! Well that explains some of your gun and self-defense posts! I thought "Damn! That's one tough lady!" hehe

 

Anyhoo! Sorry to hear about the mess and the setback, but you're doing so well together I'm sure it will be forgotten tomorrow. Keep up all the great progress and it will be but a tiny inconsequential bump in the road.

 

Oh, the DV women probably didn't come to the self-defense class because you were a man. Many of the victims I dealth with basically shut down towards men of any types after serious violence, the type that makes them leave the home often sends them into that withdrawl.

[KellyR]

Well, I don't know where to go. After the poo episode, HrrGrr has become increasingly more combative. His crate became a constant battleground of wills. If I tried to reach in to collar him, he'd snap or try to bite, if I left him on a leash, he'd destroy the leash and we'd be back to trying to get him out. So finally we reached a compromise. He got his original 'den' back in the hallway, complete with sleeping pad, food, water and toys, and he has a private area to the right where he's been really good about pee/pooping on paper. No forced interaction, just a quite place to watch from. I tried repeatedly to get him to take food from me but nothing has happened on that front. I've met stiff resistance from the 2 vets that I've spoken with regarding anxiety medication, so no help there.

 

I'm currently trying to 'let him come to me plan' with tossed treats, bright hello's, simple short walks 2x a day, no new training, just watching. No progress, even when he watches me play with Sammie, he'd rather sit and rot than play with either of us. I dunno, maybe he'll never come around. But at least he'll have a nice bed and food whether he realizes it or not.

 

 

 

I still think he's beautiful, but I suppose that some beautiful things might not meant to be touched.

[MrSnappy]

Not everyone is cut out to rehabilitate an extremely undersocialized and fearful dog.

 

Certainly meeting a dog's fear reactions with smacks, scruffs, pins and violence, and beatings for ill timed bodily functions, is having the opposite effect of what (one hopes) you're trying to achieve.

 

From the dog's perspective you are mean, scary, unpredictable and violent. He's terrified of you, and with good reason. Ask yourself why he should trust you now? What's the answer? Why do you think he is biting back?

 

Maybe it's time to recognize that you "can't kick the fire" out this pup and it could be time to start treating him with kindness? Your method has put this poor dog into a way back time machine with respect to progress.

 

Take it for what it's worth. This dog's future is at risk.

 

Try to refrain from sending me angry, threatening or hysterical PMs this time too. Actually, don't try, just refrain. I don't want to engage your temper, I just want you to recognize you're not doing right by this dog. The road to hell is paved with good intentions. Saving him doesn't excuse crushing him.

 

RDM

[Nikki Larned]

Not everyone is cut out to rehabilitate an extremely undersocialized and fearful dog.

 

Certainly meeting a dog's fear reactions with smacks, scruffs, pins and violence, and beatings for ill timed bodily functions, is having the opposite effect of what (one hopes) you're trying to achieve.

 

From the dog's perspective you are mean, scary, unpredictable and violent. He's terrified of you, and with good reason. Ask yourself why he should trust you now? What's the answer? Why do you think he is biting back?

 

Maybe it's time to recognize that you "can't kick the fire" out this pup and it could be time to start treating him with kindness? Your method has put this poor dog into a way back time machine with respect to progress.

 

Take it for what it's worth. This dog's future is at risk.

 

Try to refrain from sending me angry, threatening or hysterical PMs this time too. Actually, don't try, just refrain. I don't want to engage your temper, I just want you to recognize you're not doing right by this dog. The road to hell is paved with good intentions. Saving him doesn't excuse crushing him.

 

RDM

[Root Beer]

Owning a fearful dog is a challenge. I found that when I tried to make Speedy be less fearful, things got worse. When I finally accepted that his state of mind is fearful sometimes and expressed that to him though my actions, he made major improvement.

 

With a fearful dog building trust is even more important than it is with a normal dog. I've found that when all else fails building trust has helped me get Speedy through the rough times. I avoid scruff shakes, smacking, yelling, etc. at all costs. It would only make things worse by breaking down trust.

 

He is beautiful and I hope the day comes when he will allow you to touch him.

[Guest TheRuffMuttGang]

^^ What RDM said. I wasn't sure how to say it in a halfway civilized manner.

[Shetlander]

I'm currently trying to 'let him come to me plan' with tossed treats, bright hello's, simple short walks 2x a day, no new training, just watching. No progress, even when he watches me play with Sammie, he'd rather sit and rot than play with either of us. I dunno, maybe he'll never come around. But at least he'll have a nice bed and food whether he realizes it or not.

 

How long have you been trying this plan? With shy/fearful dogs, you really do need to go at their pace. Your commitment to help this dog is admirable but to be perfectly honest, the pace at which you were determined to go has been troubling. These dogs need a sometimes complex mixture of patience, persistence, and very gentle pushing to try new things. I had to learn when to ignore the fearfulness and when to reassure my dog. I learned what my particular dog needed in various situations, which was not what people often thought it was. For instance, some folks would creep up to him like he was a bomb about to go off which only worried him. Others would crouch which he likewise found alarming though I know other dogs who see that posture as non-threatening. The best thing "outsiders" could do with him was act as though he was a cat and wait for him to come to them, and even then be very low key. My sheltie eventually became what I called "almost normal" but that took years. I also reminded myself repeatedly over those years that "he'll always be who he is." As it turned out, he was a very wonderful dog who earned many admirers but he was still himself and that included an underlying suspicion of the world. Some days were better than others and I came to respect just how much courage my fearful dog possessed as he faced the crazy, scary world day after day.

 

I think you set yourself and the pup up for failure by trying to do so much so fast. You can't force these dogs to be normal or get over their fears. Have you done any clicker training? That's something I wish I had known about with my own shy guy. There is a very good book called Click to Calm by Emma Parsons which is marketed towards aggressive dogs but I think is great for clicker training in general and would work with fearful dogs. I strongly feel that sort of approach would be the best way to go for this fellow.

 

I still think he's beautiful, but I suppose that some beautiful things might not meant to be touched.

 

True. But sometimes they just need to be touched a certain way and at a certain time and it may take longer than we could have guessed to get there.

[Nikki Larned]

I am so sorry, I think that I hit a wrong button. I will try again to say what I wrote. I totally agree 100 percent on what RDM has to say on this case. I had an extremely fear aggressive cattle dog years ago that I tried my hardest to rehab. I tried for 8 long months. Unfortunatly this case was far beyond my knowledge and I made the decision to turn him over to a much more qualified person, who did help him to overcome most of his issues. I guess what I want to say is, you need to ask yourself at some point, "am I helping or hindering this animal"? I certainly can not comment on this person or case because I do not know them. I am sure though that this would certainly NOT be the way to deal with a fear aggressive dog, just my experience and opinion, of course.

[Shetlander]

With a fearful dog building trust is even more important than it is with a normal dog. I've found that when all else fails building trust has helped me get Speedy through the rough times. I avoid scruff shakes, smacking, yelling, etc. at all costs. It would only make things worse by breaking down trust.

 

This can't be emphasized enough. When I first started agility with my sheltie, people often commented on how patient I was with my at times freaked out dog. My response was always the same -- "What choice do I have?" Anything less than patience, encouragement and gentle handling would only have set him back.

 

This is why I think clicker training would be very helpful for HrrGrr. It's a positive way to train the dog and help him deal with situations. Instead of "making" the dog do something, you concentrate on how can you communicate what you are after. The dog learns how to manipulate his enviroment, gains confidence, goes at a pace that works for him and hopefully sees you as the source of endless good things (not just food, but toys, walks, access to anything the dog finds reinforcing). As I said, I didn't know about clicker with my shy dog but I sure wish I had. I think it would have helped him get over some hurdles a little faster and with much less stress.

[Guest WoobiesMom]

Gosh, I don't know what to say but I'm so sorry you and HrrGrr are going through this. But please don't give up, the progress might be slow and fraught with setbacks but I think the potential is there for him. Maybe you can find a behaviorist and possibly a vet who would help with anxiety meds. I have read they can be helpful in extreme cases. How old is he again? I know there are certain fear stages that dogs go through and when Woobie hit 9 months it was like we had to start all over again. He was terrified of almost everything! Maybe it's a stage and he'll start to slowly come out of it with time. Or it could be an adjustment to the presence of a new dog that will ease with time. I'll be keeping my fingers crossed for you both.

 

I hope there's something here that might help. And the Shy K9s group on Yahoo Groups has alot of people who've been through what you're facing, maybe there's some good info there also.

 

http://www.msu.edu/~silvar/fear.htm

 

http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index.js...m/bc/140215.htm

 

http://www.paw-rescue.org/PAW/PETTIPS/DogT...ggression2.html

 

http://www.canismajor.com/dog/aggres1.html

[SincereArtisan]

In well-adjusted DOG packs, a leader--a GOOD pack leader--does not need to use violence to constantly correct and assert his position. They rely more so on body language. These scruff shakes and pins are what occurs when another dog is being RUDE. Like humping, or persistant in-your-face stuff. You scruffing that pup when he is sending mixed signals. He is trying to illustrate how rude you're being by picking him up, and you're responding with aggressive corrections. This makes you unpredictable, unreasonable, and aggressive in the dog's eyes...not to mention, it doesn't help that he has a fear of men. It may not be from that rescuer that picked him up, either. He may have been abused by a man in the past. Consider that.

 

Your description of his behavior that afternoon when he went all over your bed puzzles me. You may have read that as "I need to potty NOW," but judging by his reactions towards you entering his crate later, he may have been a bit worked up over you cleaning the inside of his crate, and being in there when he couldn't be, seeing as you described he likes to rush to those places he feels most safe. When dogs get nervous, stressed, and unreasonably worked up over something, they tend to void their bowels, and its not usually the firm stool of a healthy bowel movement, but softer--pretty much what you described.

 

Keep this in mind as you're working your way back into his confidences. My only suggestion for the time being would be acting like the dog isn't there at all. No eye contact, read up on body postures that are unthreatening to dogs, walk him only as necessary and nowhere public where you might encounter circumstances that could set him off for a while. Essentially, let him come to you. When he is ready to make that move, you'll know, and please.. As others have stated, its a slow, long road, and you must work at the dog's pace if you are to see any improvement.

[Mudpups]

I don't have a lot of experience with fearful dogs, but it is clear to me that (as good as your intentions may be) the way you have reacted has caused this current major setback. I'm not surprised that HrrGrr has reacted the way he has. HrrGrr has made incredible progress in such a short period of time, but it seems like you need to start today as if it was day one.

 

HrrGrr has to re-learn that he can trust you, it may take a lot longer this time and it might never happen.

 

I know that you are trying to do the best by this beautiful dog, but in order to do so, please please for his sake listen to the experienced people who are giving you advice to slow down and ONLY use positive reinforcement and kindness with this dog.

 

I really admire you trying to help him, but if you are unable to control and prevent yourself from expressing negative and violent reactions that are clearly damaging and distressing to HrrGrr, please consider handing him over to someone with more experience dealing with these kind of issues, rather than risking pushing him over the edge to the point that he will never recover.

[KellyR]

To all the folks offering encouragement, thank you, I will love and care for HrrGrr as long as I am able.

 

To everyone else, let me congratulate you on your new found status as the embodiment of Buddha, Jesus, Mother Theresa, Mahatma Ghandi, etc, et al rolled into one. Obviously you've never lost your temper, said/did something that you later regretted. Perhaps you aren't as human as we mere mortals.

[Laurae]

Kelly,

You've posted that you've lost your temper a few times and resorted to physical punishment. I can understand losing a temper once, but when it happens repeatedly, you may ask yourself whether you are actually helping this dog in the long run. In addition, you've posted that when your dog's behavior displeases you, you respond with physical intimidation, such as scruff shakes. This seems to happen not as a result of losing your temper, but as a behavior modification strategy. HrrGrr is very fearful, and qualified animal behavior experts like Patricia McConnell, Ian Dunbar, and Jean Donaldson widely agree that intimidation tactics are not an effective way to build confidence in a dog. If he is indeed increasing his aggression, perhaps it's time to acknowledge that you and HrrGrr are simply not a very good match for one another.

[mbc1963]

Hi, Kelly,

 

No judgments here. I definitely understand frustration - like when my dog had a decaying rat's body in his mouth, rat tail swinging loose from his jaws, and kept running away, laughing at the "fun" game of keepaway. BOY was I mad! If he had let me near him, I might have whapped him! Grrr!

 

But...

 

In practical terms, losing your cool and showing what HrrGrr sees as "aggression" probably does set him back a ways. When I first got my dog, I read some of those "dominance" books, and tried the leash jerks and such when Buddy was aggressive. All he got was angry and more aggressive!

 

When I switched to the Patricia McConnell school of thought, he made great strides, and the key was trust in me. He was slowly able to transfer that to trust in other humans, though it doesn't expand very widely out to the world in general, still.

 

So, I'm no Mother Teresa, but as far as effectiveness goes, the gentle way probably will work best. I try to base my behavior on that knowledge, though I'm not successful 100% of the time. Unfortunately, you were so early in your work with HrrGrr that he probably went much further backwards than my dog would go at this point, after two years. (One step forward two back has become two forward, one back... at least I hope!)

 

Good luck... and keep us posted. I love reading about what's going on, and really want to keep up on his progress.

 

Mary

[SincereArtisan]

In no way am I saying that losing your temper is no excuse, it happens to the rest of us, even myself, and when you can own up to doing it, then thats respectable and mature.

 

However, I was remarking on your training techniques involving his nipping/biting. I assume your scruffing/pinning was done while you were not struggling with your temper? I don't agree with scruffing/pinning in the situations you are describing. As I stated before, it does nothing but scare the dog, and send mixed signals.

[Shetlander]

To everyone else, let me congratulate you on your new found status as the embodiment of Buddha, Jesus, Mother Theresa, Mahatma Ghandi, etc, et al rolled into one. Obviously you've never lost your temper, said/did something that you later regretted. Perhaps you aren't as human as we mere mortals.

 

Ok, I'm confused. It doesn't help that posts keep getting dropped and going missing. I thought in your post previous to this that you were looking for input on how to help HrrGrr. That what you had been trying did not appear to be working so you were trying a new plan. I thought you wanted to have a discussion about your new plan and how to help HrrGrr. Perhaps I misunderstood.