Who's the boss here?

[sweet_ceana]

I am woundering if anyone has any suggestions for taking back a little more control with my hard headed aggressive but beautiful dog that I love! ... she sure is lucky... j/k Ceana thinks she is the boss of everyone! She will plop on her back the moment I even give her the eye though..... she is just really pushing the line with me. She growls when she wants you to leave her alone so for the past month or so when she growls chris and i stop petting her until she starts rubbing her head on our hands obviously asking for it. The attitude however has become more frequent so today today when she growled (teeth and all the little brat) I leaned right towards her (but still stopped touching) and said excuse me?! really deeply and firmly! The look she gave me ! LOL it was utter shock and she was begging for forgiveness... so i ignored her for 5 minutes ( though she stuck herself everywhere I was) and then I forgave the growl. So that seems like it may work... any other ideas?

Oh yes and for some un benounced reason she actually pooped on the floor in between the 3 hours from when Chris went to work and I got home from work! I know she did this to be defiant (this was before she growled), I walked in the house to day... there is an eagar wiggle but on the floor, I look to my right...see poo... look back, dog is on her back with her tail tucked in. So i gave her the naughty girl speech, flushed the poo, cleaned everything up and ignored her for 30 minutes.

Are there anythings I should be doing in these situations that I am missing... or do I just have a dominant bitch who is the equivelent of a spoiled 15 year old girl? (15month dog =15 year old girl?)

 

Oh and we do NILF, for kibble, for frisbee throw, before we go outside, in the car.... before just about anything!

 

(**we stopped touching with the growl because it was a warning before a bite)

[OurBoys]

JJ tried the growling stunt once. We had given him a big soup bone. All DH did was walk up to him to pet him. When JJ growled, DH grabbed him on the back of his neck and in a deep voice (his growl) told him not to ever do that again. He didn't. It sounds like Ceana might be trying to become the alpha of your pack.

 

As far as using the bathrom in the house, never have her wait. Always take her outside as soon as possible. Could she have eaten more than usual? Are you sure you BF let her relieve herself before going to work? In other words, did he actually see her using the bathroom? Was her schedule missed up for some reason?

[Guest WoobiesMom]

You know, I'm wondering if she might be feeling ill. The attitude + the unusual accident might mean something more than just feeling her oats. I might be inclined to have her checked by the vet before scolding her for something that might be medically wrong. Then once you have the all clear from the vet, you can address the attitude if it lingers. I can't offer much advice on that one, I'm an advocate of the alpha roll for dominant behavior, but that was for a terrier, bird of a different feather. Haven't had to use it but maybe 3 times w/Woobie in the first 3 weeks we had him.

[bcnewe2]

Isn't this the dog that niped Chris? I think you're doing the growling thing right. You might want to add pushing her off you or out of your space if she growls more. Kinda like rolling her away from you or off what ever shes's on. It's not really touching her or petting her but it lets her know your takling back your space without any conflict. Really let her know you want nothing to do with her when she does that with your body posture but not in her face. still respect her issues.

She sounds allot like my Raven. We call her Chester the Molester casue she is all over you then for what ever reason it's over and off she goes. If you tried to contain after she's done her she'd do the same growl thing. Even after all these years, it's still a warning that she's uncomfortable with something. So shoving her off my lap if I hear a growl just ends whatever we had going on. Hope that makes sence.

 

As far as pooping on the floor. I just don't think these smart dogs do this to get back at us or even with us or for whatever. I tend to think it's an accident, maybe on purpose but for a reason other than just peeing you off.

I'd be more tempted to clean up the poo without correction and watching what going on with her eating or bathroom times. Sometimes we just get out of wack and have to go now instead of later...could have been her too!

 

Woobies Mom....This is a dog if I remember right, that I think would not do well with any alpha rolls. Her growls are more a warning that she's over her comfort zone line and the alpha roll would push her farther over her line. You have to defuse her gently to end the fear or tension that seems to all of a sudden come out of no where. Am I think about the right dog SC?

 

Kristen

[sweet_ceana]

Oh yes you are thinking of the right dog. When Chris tried to do the alpha thing with her he wound up with a bloody lip. I pointed for her to get down off the couch when she growled at me the other day and she snapped, but by my natural motion she missed my hand. I moved back out of hesitation though and i am sure she picked up on that. I will have to try moving her while being more asseertive. She was just at the vet not more than a week ago, and this is not a new behavior so for now I will rule out her health... though I am going to have to keep in mind that it could be an over active gland of some sort.... but that will be the last thing since she seems to repond to behavioral cues. She has become better with other dogs, but she now tends to favor BCs and smaller dogs. She still raises her fur and snaps at larger non BCs. I know she is a very dominant dog, but would this behavior be an indication of fear? this may sound dumb but can dominant dogs have fear issues? I always assumed fearful dogs are submissive... I have a serious feeling I am wrong.

 

We have always free fed her and her weight is fine (aproxx 32lbs) the vet says she is the fitest dog she sees . I wounder though if what you said about her scheadual maybe the problem. Bcnewe2 your post really made me think that maybe if she is eating whenever she wants she does not have a bathroom sheadual. This would mean no poo scheadual either. Her accidents are rare, but we have had them and I bet this is why. Alright starting tomorrow no food after 9:00am until 5:00pm. She normally eats most of her food at night anyway (aha and her bowl was empty when I came home this has to be it Thank you guys!)

[OurBoys]

I wounder though if what you said about her scheadual maybe the problem. Bcnewe2 your post really made me think that maybe if she is eating whenever she wants she does not have a bathroom sheadual. This would mean no poo scheadual either. Her accidents are rare, but we have had them and I bet this is why. Alright starting tomorrow no food after 9:00am until 5:00pm. She normally eats most of her food at night anyway (aha and her bowl was empty when I came home this has to be it Thank you guys!)

 

SC, I believe you hit the nail on the head. Put her on a regular feeding schedule and her bathroom breaks will become more regular.

 

Bcnew2, I'm in the same boat with SC. I've always thought fear aggression was in submissive dogs. Are we wrong?

[Guest WoobiesMom]

Woobies Mom....This is a dog if I remember right, that I think would not do well with any alpha rolls. Her growls are more a warning that she's over her comfort zone line and the alpha roll would push her farther over her line. You have to defuse her gently to end the fear or tension that seems to all of a sudden come out of no where. Am I think about the right dog SC?

 

Kristen

 

Yes, that's why I said bird of a different feather. I think alpha rolls are probably not for BCs in general. Way too "thinking" a dog than the hard headed terrier of my past. I don't have any advice in this department. My terrier only growled at us like that once, over a rawhide, and he never saw one again. He had dominance issues but dealing with those were handled in a way that I don't think would work with a BC. Woobie's never had any of those types of issues. Lots of other ones but not any dominance issues.

[Guest LJS1993]

I really think you need to roll Ceana in order to show her you are in command and that it's the humans that rule the pack. Don't get me wrong, I don't mean hurt Ceana or anything like that. I also don't believe in rolling for whatever reason. However Freckles once tried nipping at me so I rolled her. After I rolled her I held her down and it really calmed her. Since then she knows I love her but am Daddy, the man who feeds her, bathes her, gives her warm shelter and love. Again, I'm no expert and in no way believe that being really harsh is good for a Border. The only instances she has been rolled was because it was absolutely something I would not stand for. I think too many people either freak out about rolling or do it much too often. I know some may disagree about this, but Freckles is happy, loving, very alert, bright eyed, and instinctive. Rolling has not broken her by any means. She is all Border Collie and I love it!!!!!!!!!

Let me also add this to my comments. My last BC was a very dominant female who loved me greatly. However, since I was a bit too easy on her that dominance really made life with her more difficult than with Freckles. If I would have established things sooner, I think our life together would have been even better than it was. I would have to say that rolling Freckles when she is absolutely out of line has improved our relationship greatly.

 

**EDITED FOR CLARITY OF THOUGHT **

[RaisingRiver]

I just wanted to say that a dog does not poop in the house to be defiant. They don't know the meaning of the word. They are not vengeful. So that's not why she is pooping. There could be another reason. I know River can't hold her poo for X amount of time and is very clockwork and will poop in the house if she's not outside at the appropriate times (she doesn't hold it and doesn't tell me even if I'm home). And it didn't start until she was just over a year and a half old - so it took me a while to figure out why she was doing it since I KNEW she was potty trained. So now I just don't let it happen and take her with me if I know I won't be home at the appropriate times.

 

I don't like the rolling thing personally..

 

But I do like that you said 'excuse me and got in her face' because I'd probably try screaming in her face. Don't back down, don't take her crap. Growl right back at her. (of course if you think she'll bite you, this isn't the route to take, get a professional instead). Growl back words in a very mean authoritative voice how you aren't afraid of her and you're calling her bluff. Just say whatever you feel so that you have something to say. Then ignore her. No petting. You can even give her a time out if you need to. Then after a long while I'd wait like a half an hour), be her best friend - like 'oh hi, how are you' like you just noticed her.

[bc4pack]

Heavy sigh....

Alpha rolls....

[PSmitty]

^^Ditto.

[OurBoys]

SC, you don't have to actually roll your dog to establish the alpha position. You can start with her feeding. She's old enough now to be fed twice a day. Don't leave her food bowl on the floor. Put the food in her bowl, have her sit and tell her to wait. After setting her bowl down, release her from the wait and let her eat. After she's finished, pick up her bowl. You and your BF can take turns feeding her.

 

Alpha time can also be fun time. Go over her commands with her. Teach her new tricks. You're telling her what to do, she does it and she gets rewarded. When you can tell she's getting better, you can try a mild wrestling match-nothing too exciting. While wrestling, hold her down for a few seconds and talk sweetly to her. When you see a litter of puppies playing and wrestling, they are actually starting to learn how to exercise their domanance.

 

Be mindful of the small things. Who goes out the door first? In a dog's world, the leader does. Who eats first? In a dog's world, the leader does. Does she hang around the table when you are eating? Teach her to go into the LR while you're eating.

 

I agree with RaisingRiver. Actual growling does help. Also walking away. When you walk away, go get a cookie, cracker or chip. That'll get her attention. When she follows you, ignore her. When you're finished eating the cookie (or whatever), then acknowledge her (but don't give her any food).

 

Crate her everytime she's by herself in the house. Dog's are territorial and she might be feeling you are in her home instead of her being in your home. By crating her then letting her out when you get home, you are showing her who's the boss.

 

You don't have to be rough or aggressive to establish dominance.

[PSmitty]

It's not all about "alpha" and "dominance". Is this dog on NILIF?

 

And please, enough with the "my dog pees/poops in the house to defy/spite me". Dogs are not capable of that kind of thinking.

 

Seriously, I think I would consult a certified behaviorist, or at the very least, an *experienced* positive trainer (who doesn't advocate things like alpha rolls). Someone who can help you understand dog behavior and body language.

 

And yes, SC, a dog who acts aggressive/dominant with other dogs can be doing so out of fear.

[bc4pack]

What PSmitty said.

[Rosanne]

She's already said that rolling is not an option.

 

Ceana you are ABSOLUTELY correct - fearful dogs don't always act submissive. If you were terrified of someone (a big bruiser wearing dark clothes and looking suspicious) would you just roll over and offer yourself to him, or would you take the upper hand and act defensive? This is how your dog is perceiving dog-dog interactions right now. She seems (to me) to feel like she needs to defend herself from larger (scarier) dogs automatically.

 

I believe many dogs thought to be "dominant" are actually fearful. My advice, for now, would be just to not let her make face-to-face contact with scary dogs and just project confidence and walk straight past them, just far enough to be in her comfort zone.

 

As far as growling at people, don't risk yourself and roll her, but I certainly wouldn't just do whatever she says by stopping petting her and letting her then do her own thing. If she's a bite risk to you perhaps something like she growls and then you immediate put her in a crate in the other room and ignore her for an hour - you wouldn't have to grab her, and if taking her collar when she's doing it is bad maybe attach a short line to her collar around the house or even just call her - as long as she could associate Growling=Dog-in-the-crate-alone

 

She has to realize its unacceptable, but without you or BF scaring her more or letting her think you are something she needs to defend against.

[Guest WoobiesMom]

FWIW, there are some dogs who do need and benefit from alpha rolls. Only the owner and a trained professional will know if that's the right path for them. In my house, the alpha rolls were not done aggressively or in anger and most ended in a long pet/massage session so it had a good association for the dog. But it also showed the very dominant Airedale in my house that everyone, including the 5 year old, was the boss and would do what they wanted when they wanted with the dog. Be it nail clipping, petting, touching food, taking away toys, etc. It also helped me retrieve the rawhide that Mr. Rush got too possessive over without losing a finger. I said "Down" and "Drop It" in my dominant voice and he did exactly what I wanted, I retrieved the rawhide and he never got the chance to behave like that again.

 

I know this topic has been covered ad nauseum, but there are two sides to the topic and they're not both automatically wrong or bad. It depends on the dog and the owners. It definitely needs to be done (if at all) with the supervision and assistance of a professional if you're not familiar with the technique. Rush's breeder showed me and had me practice on their big dogs so I knew how to do it correctly and appropriately. If I had a dog who was biting me in a dominant or aggressive way, I would exhaust every option, starting with a professional consultation.

[Guest WoobiesMom]

I'll just add that our alpha roll program w/our Airedale was not something that was done just when he misbehaved. It was a routine thing. Just like routinely taking his toys, touching his food, playing with his paws, etc. It was about handling the dog from puppyhood to train him that the humans were allowed to do what they wanted to him and that it wasn't a bad thing. He got his toy back, food back, got belly rubs and massages after lying still on his side for as long as we decided. When he misbehaved, after a short time, all we had to do was say "Down" and start to kneel down next to him and he knew what was expected.

 

It was NOT a Cesar Milan style body slam, WWF style wrestle to the ground and pin into submission move. And NEVER done in anger. It was like holding a child who's having a temper tantrum and saying, "Calm down, breathe, settle down." Maybe it needs a different term like passive restraint or something.

[PSmitty]

FWIW, there are some dogs who do need and benefit from alpha rolls. Only the owner and a trained professional will know if that's the right path for them.

 

I would clarify that statement by saying it is your opinion. Many trainers and behavior experts now agree that it is an outdated, misunderstood practice that has no place in training and building a relationship with your dog.

 

Good post, Rosanne.

[Guest WoobiesMom]

http://www.diamondsintheruff.com/leader.html

 

I know you said she's already on NILIF, maybe she needs more constant control. I had a period w/my Airedale where he just wouldn't listen and tried to test his boundaries. It took a month of being tied to me with a leash and told exactly what to do every minute of the day to get through to him. He was an adolescent so had lots of energy. Being tethered to me included lots of long walks to tire him out and fun time in the yard playing games so it wasn't all drudgery but I controlled the walks and how long we played. She might need some NILIF boot camp and being made to work for affection rather than being able to end it with a growl, it might make it something whe wants and desires rather than something she tries to control.

 

Good luck!

[Olivia]

I think WoobiesMom has a good outlook on 'alpha rolls' but I agree that what she did is not really an 'alpha roll'. It sounds like the same thing as teaching a puppy that you can roll her over for nail trims and she can't get up til she relaxes. I'm doing that with my new pup. The first time I tried to flip her over on her back in my lap she squirmed and fought. I kept her there with no anger, just matter of factly, until she relaxed. It took a couple of times but she's learned that she is okay in that position and that I can put her there if and when I chose. No scary slamming to the ground.

 

I also use something similar to that for Griffin. If he starts getting a little too hard eyed at other male dogs, I ask him to lay down then to 'lay over' which means to lay on his side, offering me his belly. Once he relaxes and his head drops I rub his belly and praise his 'relax' and then he is allowed to get up. He knows exactly what I'm after when I ask for a 'lay over'. It does reestablish my dominance but not in a forceful way. This method was taught to me by a board certified behaviorist vet. Basically what you are doing is teaching them to relax and later just the word will trigger them to go to this relaxed mind and body set. When teaching it I did have to help Griffin lay on his side from a normal 'down'. Was this an alpha roll? Some would think so but I don't. It was no different than teaching Carlie to 'roll over' as a trick. I manipulated his body to the position I wanted.

 

Olivia

[Rosanne]

I was just thinking about this for a couple minutes, and I wanted to add a few things. Let me clarify that I AM a dog trainer, and have been for 15 years. I am not THE expert (NO ONE IS), but I consider myself certainly to be a professional to some degree.

 

 

I wanted to add that the whole principle of NILIF includes the idea that your dog doesn't get something just by wanting it. They have to do something YOU ask them to do. So when you say that you pet her again when she rubs her your hand, then you are doing what she wants, when she wants. I would advise that you stop doing it that way. Pet her when she's being a quiet, well-behaved dog, neither begging nor growling. For instance laying on the floor out of the way - then call her over and say "hey, you're being a FANTASTIC doggy right now", then YOu decide when the session is over and tell her "alright, I love you and all but I'VE had enough so you can go lay down". She does not control the food, the house, OR your hands.

 

If she did respond well to a verbal correction for growling, then by all means try it again. But be fair and consistent. If she backs off, then DO ignore her for a bit. Don't go overboard either. When she settles down again then call her back and pet her. A big principle of NILIF is that the dog doesn't get to tell you to do ANYTHING. Take her point of view and think "what is she saying right now?".

 

 

I ALSO wanted to add my own tidbit on alpha rolls. I have to say that I travel and have many friends in the dog community. Many do agility, or a combination of agility/flyball/freestyle/dockdogs, even a few working BC people. I dont know ANYONE who does alpha rolls anymore.

We used to own a retriever who'd bite if you rolled him.

In real dog-dog interaction the submissive dog DECIDES to submit. If you get down on the dog's level and attempt to force this, you are in essence saying "i'm a dog and I want you to submit" which opens up the possibility of non-submission as well. Which equals being bit. I feel unclear here, but the gist of it is, if you are committing to speak dog, be ready for the consequences, as every time a dog demands submission he doesn't get it, if you catch my meaning.

 

I may not have the best temperament on earth, but I have to admit if someone physically manhandled me onto my back and held me there, I'd be so livid I'd want to kill them. Women who feel raped go through pretty much this same feeling (just a tad worse) and rape is all about control, not sex. (I've taken several law classes that dealt with this). Perhaps alpha rolls are not quite as bad as raping your dog, but this is just an unfair thing to do them, in my opinion.

 

My first BC was VERY scared of being physically manipulated. I couldn't even stretch her before agility by the usual methods. If I rolled her, even to do her toenails, she would freeze up, start shaking, her pupils would dilate, etc. If she had been a different dog she would have bitten. She was VERY submissive to me. Dogs who don't like alpha rolls are not necessarily acting out or being dominant.

 

Your dog should not perceive you as a dog, alpha or otherwise. Dogs are not so stupid as to see all living creatures as other dogs. Your dog should view you as The Boss Human. A God, even, if that's not too sacrilegious for you. I use a growling tone with my dogs just to make it easier for them to understand, not because I think they view me as dogs.

[PSmitty]

See, now, I agree with what you do with Griffin, Olivia, but I wouldn't call that an alpha roll. It seems to me that you're accomplishing something *other* than "dominance" over your dog (premise of the alpha roll), you are trying to get an over stimulated dog to relax. IMO, there's a difference, there.

 

Anyway, I'm not talking about alpha rolls anymore, since the OP already stated she isn't using it, and I don't want to derail her thread.

 

I stand behind my advice to seek help from a behaviorist or experienced, positive trainer. Best of luck, sweet ceana.

 

ETA: Great post again, Rosanne!

[Guest WoobiesMom]

Thank you Olivia! I've always called it "alpha roll" because that's what the breeder called it but it's not really the angry, pin on their back roll that I've read described elsewhere. It is exactly the lie on your side and relax until I release you move you described. Maybe I should call it "forced relaxation" in the future for clarity. And it was not used exclusively but rather part of an overall, "I control everything in your world" program of establishing leadership and control, like NILIF, I just didn't know it was called that at the time. Terrier breeders call it establishing dominance, a poor choice of words I guess.

 

 

And it does work well, IN MY OPINION......

[Rosanne]

One more bit:

 

I don't have any problem with working with a dog from puppyhood and teaching it that I am allowed to manipulate its body, but as a response to aggression or fear on the dog's part it can really complicate the matter and make you seem untrustworthy.

 

I do clip my dogs toenails with them lying down, after all, and I expect them to deal with it.

[painted_ponies]

if you are committing to speak dog, be ready for the consequences, as every time a dog demands submission he doesn't get it, if you catch my meaning. <snip> Your dog should not perceive you as a dog, alpha or otherwise. Dogs are not so stupid as to see all living creatures as other dogs. Your dog should view you as The Boss Human.

 

Thank you. I have always believed (even before I read about the origin of the "alpha roll" ) that a dog would have to be pretty stupid to mistake me for one of his own.

 

Which is a good thing, since I do not enjoy participating in canine social interactions. I tried playing bitey-face once, as a kid, and wound up with a split lip pretty quickly. Likewise, I do not encourage my horses to see me as the boss mare, since I do not particularly want them grooming the back of my neck with their big honkin' teeth, thankyouverymuch.