Who's the boss here?

[bcnewe2]

My first BC was VERY scared of being physically manipulated. I couldn't even stretch her before agility by the usual methods. If I rolled her, even to do her toenails, she would freeze up, start shaking, her pupils would dilate, etc. If she had been a different dog she would have bitten. She was VERY submissive to me. Dogs who don't like alpha rolls are not necessarily acting out or being dominant.

 

I think this is a very good statement. From what I know of SC's dog this would fit her quite well. She is a lot like my Raven. Raven is 8 and we've managed well for these last 8 years. I can do whatever I want with her. Take her to the vet, examine anywhere on her body, just about anything. But if she's in that wild eye fear stage she locks up and I have to let her come out of her zone before doing anything to her.

 

I don't need to put her in the NILF program because she will do whatever it is I'm asking of her. She lives to please me, but again if she goes into that zone I have to wait for her to come out of it. After all this time I can hurry her calming along with a few words. Either harsh ones or calming ones depending on what the situation is calling for but forget trying to do anything while she's there or I'm sure she'd nail me. It was fear based now just part of her, I also think it’s in her makeup.

She is pretty comfortable now but any other dog or imaginary thing (to me not her) can set her off. I'd say she growls at another dog she perceives as a threat to her space at least once a day but it's not the "zone" thing. She just doesn't like to have anyone in her personal space. The “wild eye” only happens maybe once a month or so. Depending on what or who we have here. People don't set her off anymore but other things or dogs do, once there she will react to people too.

 

I bet SC is growling in the start of fear but it's also ingrained in her makeup too. You need to manage it, if you can change it, good on you and let me know how you did it.

 

These are wonderful dogs just the way they are , I don't try to change Raven anymore, just manage things smoothly. IMO I think they take on the look of alpha to other dogs or us because they feel the need to control their surroundings but I think they are not truly alpha. To me, alpha dogs are not mean, just top dogs.

 

I also like Rosanne's comment that trying to manipulate her while in that zone would keep you from being trustworthy to her. Again, they are not doing this with any control; it's more a reaction that happens without them being able to control themselves.

 

I think the alpha roll thing is way over rated. Most of my dogs would take it as a cue for a belly rub or that I want to look at something on that part of their body. They already know I'm the boss. If I wanted to look at Ravens belly I'd ask her to roll over, not roll her over, then we'd have no problems cause she'd be doing it for me. If not in that zone I could easily roll her over.

It's more like a state of mind not an action that lets them know I'm boss, in the same manner of an alpha dog but I'm sure they know I'm not a dog

 

BTW, Raven never asked to go outside in her life. She won't ask to go in either. I accidentally let her outside all night once because I didn't know she was out there. Poor girl, just sat there waiting for me to open the door. Lately she's figured out if she goes to the door I will open it. She kinda plays a game now, she goes to the door, I open it, then she looks out and walks back in. It's like she's amazed that she can ask for something. If it were another dog I might get aggravated but for her it's huge that she has learned to ask.

 

Keep working SC, I think your doing fine. If you’re worried you can see a professional but I think you know what you got in your dog and finding ways to deal with her is taking time. A professional would need time too. I’m sure they'd have seen this type dog before but all programs have to be catered to a specific dog. You’re doing good.

 

Kristen

[RaisingRiver]

I just wanted to point out that submissive dogs don't always show their bellies.

 

My most alpha of dogs always shows me her belly, every time I walk in the room she's laying in and say, 'Hi Jaida, she rolls thinking I'm going to reach to pet her' - yet is amazingly confident, guards the property like a GSD and is always regarded with respect at the dog park (yet she never demands any). The strong silent type. She always stands at the dog park - that's the only position she takes. At home, she will lay down sometimes to play with Diesel.

 

In contrast, River is the low dog in our pack, always always defers to the other dogs, sits/lays down in a low position at the dog park, licks her lips but never EVER shows her belly. At home, she will do the same with me, but again NEVER shows her belly. I can manipulate her because I started as a small pup with her - desensitizing, so I can roll her to her side/back (which I do for nail clipping position) and she's ok with it.

 

Summary: I don't think showing bellies implies or conveys either submission or dominance.

[bc4pack]

Sorry guys, I was 'heavy sighing' at the thought of how many people IN GENERAL, seem to believe in very outdated ways of relating to their dogs....just the whole 'dominance', dogs doing things out of 'spite' bit.

 

I can't understand why people IN GENERAL, who claim to want their dog's love and trust, and honestly want a close

relationship with their dog, still think of dealing with their dogs in confrontational ways.

 

Please believe me when I say, my little rant IS NOT directed at anyone here. A lot of it is the fact that I work with

a bunch of handlers that can't work a dog without a choke chain or will confront a dog or...... AAAAAGGGHHHHH!!!

Handlers that can't be bothered to open their eyes and learn a new approach, and they call themselves handlers!

 

Just frustrated !!!!!!

[PSmitty]

Sorry guys, I was 'heavy sighing' at the thought of how many people IN GENERAL, seem to believe in very outdated ways of relating to their dogs....just the whole 'dominance', dogs doing things out of 'spite' bit.

 

I can't understand why people IN GENERAL, who claim to want their dog's love and trust, and honestly want a close

relationship with their dog, still think of dealing with their dogs in confrontational ways.

 

I tried to stay out of it, really, I did! But this statement is so spot on, I had to applaud it! *claps hands* Thank you.

[Guest LJS1993]

I'll just add that our alpha roll program w/our Airedale was not something that was done just when he misbehaved. It was a routine thing. Just like routinely taking his toys, touching his food, playing with his paws, etc. It was about handling the dog from puppyhood to train him that the humans were allowed to do what they wanted to him and that it wasn't a bad thing. He got his toy back, food back, got belly rubs and massages after lying still on his side for as long as we decided. When he misbehaved, after a short time, all we had to do was say "Down" and start to kneel down next to him and he knew what was expected.

 

It was NOT a Cesar Milan style body slam, WWF style wrestle to the ground and pin into submission move. And NEVER done in anger. It was like holding a child who's having a temper tantrum and saying, "Calm down, breathe, settle down." Maybe it needs a different term like passive restraint or something.

 

 

Exactly WoobiesMom, I have never grabbed Frek up and slammed her. Like I stated, by no means does it mean violence and degradation. I think Cesar gets a little carried away with his version of the roll. Our's is more of the hold you down, relax, let's gather ourselves type of roll we do with Freckles. We also manipulate her constantly and she follows a strict program of NILF. Whenever she wants food she has to sit, lie down, speak, etc..... Just last night I ate next to her and even grabbed her food from her bowl while she was eating(raw meat). When on walks I practice recall by treating and praising. At the dog park, she is praised for her excellent recall and when she is showing good manners. We practice recalling her when she is with the pack because you never know when something might happen and you need your dog quickly. Again, I'm a rookie but I think the roll is really getting confused with a full double leg takedown/back suplex. As far as ruining our relationship with Freckles, well, I wish people could see how great our relationship truly is. She is well behaved, knows her place, we don't have to fear touching her or walking around her when she is asleep or lying down. She wakes me up in the morning when she has to pottie, using that cute little high pitched semi-bark/whine to announce the beginning of the day. She is overall a very happy puppy who is living and enjoying a close relationship with her master's.

[OurBoys]

To me, alpha dogs are not mean, just top dogs.

 

It's more like a state of mind not an action that lets them know I'm boss, in the same manner of an alpha dog but I'm sure they know I'm not a dog

 

I tried not to say anything again but I believe your statement above is stated perfectly and should be reiterated. Alpha dogs are not mean. The alpha dog is just the top dog. And I agree with it being more of a state of mind. I can whisper a command to JJ and he'll listen because he knows I'm the top dog/person.

[Shetlander]

Just last night I ate next to her and even grabbed her food from her bowl while she was eating(raw meat).

 

That works for some dogs but backfires for others who may get wary about their food being messed with and start resource guarding. I never take back food unless I really need to for some reason. Those rare instances have never been a problem even when I pry my dog's mouth open to fish something out. I move very quickly and it's over before the dog knows what happened. Usually they'll have a "How rude!" expression when I've finished. I then give them a treat for being so good about the whole thing.

 

I think the roll is really getting confused with a full double leg takedown/back suplex.

 

I will have my dogs lie down when they are acting up. It's a consequence and I feel it is a submissive posture. Mainly though, it seems to help them settle and think a little more clearly. I haven't seen any fallout from using the technique and I've seen some real benefit, especially with Quinn and the Lhasa who tend to posture and push at each other, to the point I now have zero tolerance for that behavior.

[sweet_ceana]

Thank you all for your replies! I think I knew deep down that she would not poo out of spite, I guess it is just easier for me to super impose human emotions onto her than it is to truley understand the origin of my fraustration. Sorry if anyone was offeneded. (this is my first dog.. not that it is an excuse, just a learning experience)

 

When Ceana is sorry she rolls on her back on her own, I have never needed to turn her and I never plan to. That would PO her so bad I might loose a finger. She does however get that "wild eye" that you all have been speaking about. When she is in that state she just seems to disconnect and react.

 

I never thought about petting when she asks and what it would imply to her, thank you for pointing that out. Most of the time that this troublesome behavior happens is when we are petting her. By petting her when she asks she probably thinks this is when she is in control... and that is when the attitude comes out.

 

I have always thought she is dominant because other dogs will scoot on thier butts up to her and lick her face (like a hungry wolf pup to its mom---only image i could think of). We are going to keep on socializing her and tighten up our NILIF ( ie.. petting) as well as more consitent feedings. I think I am going to do more research on fear because the more I learn and see the more I believe it has a lot to do with her actions. If we can't get things in order we will go see a behavioralist, I am still clinging to hope (and my wallet) that we can tackle this together without one, but if that is what we need to do it will be done.

 

Don't get Ceana wrong though, she is a wounderful pup and I love her very much! I am not perfect so I cannot expect her to be She & i just need time... then we'll get Chris in line

[bcnewe2]

I never thought about petting when she asks and what it would imply to her, thank you for pointing that out. Most of the time that this troublesome behavior happens is when we are petting her. By petting her when she asks she probably thinks this is when she is in control...

 

Why do you think that is? Do you pet her when she's sleeping or not wanting attention? Sometimes Raven will get nervous when we're loving on each other and I dont' know what changes the situation. If that happens she is allowed or encouraged to move out of my area, I don't usually move out of her way but I don't restrain her either. I don't, not pet her when she asks, but I also don't think she is being dominant over me. Just reacting to a situation that she for some reason is uncomfortable with. Somehow I think it's 2 different things. She's a perfect citizen unless her deamons come out and all I want to do is control her reaction to them. I'd love to make them dissapear but that's not going to happen so we take what we have and live with it.

 

All the pups I've brought in will slink up to Raven like you describe but she usually growls or ignors them. I've only seen her respond to 1 pup with kindness but it was more indifference. Since that pup she seems to have lightened up on most puppies. As long as they have manners, if they're my puppies, they learn real quick. The only dog she truely likes is her house mate who was here before her. Jazz is going to be 10 and they get along great, I even see them sneak a lick to each others faces but never when they think they'er being watached

 

I think new dogs to a pack or younger dogs will do that behavior to see where they stand. Like a test or something. I still don't think that means the ones they are slinking up to are alphaa, I think Ray gives out wierd signals so the dogs that don't know her are asking her some sort of pack behavior question.

Our last rescue didn't learn quick enough to leave Ray alone and they went head to head. Poor Ray is almost 8 and Ruby was only 1.5 at the time, Ray almost lost an eye. She did learn a bit of self control out of the deal. At least they can live together and not try to kill each other all the time. This particular rescue keeps Raven on edge most of the time, that is why the other dog is still a "rescue"and not a permant resident. I owe Ray as much comfort as I can give her. Ruby will go to a home that fits her needs perfectly. Ruby is not an aggressive dog either. She doesn't understand what Raven is saying so they end up fighting.

 

I'm sure Ceana is a wonderful pup. If we were all perfect it'd be a boring world!

 

Time will do wonders keep working on it!

 

Kristen

edited to add...I sure don't think you offended anyone by saying you think she might be pooing out of spite. It's so easy and sometimes fun (not with the poo thing) to put human emotions on to them. I even have fake human voices that I think they'd sound like if they could talk! I make up cartoons in my head with them talking to me! But I have been called weird!

[Guest WoobiesMom]

I think I am going to do more research on fear because the more I learn and see the more I believe it has a lot to do with her actions.

 

Definitely check out the ShyK9s group on Yahoo for good info on fear. I think there's people there dealing with fear aggression so it may be a good resource for you.

[BustopherJones]

Who's the boss here?

I'm surprised that a BC owner would even have to ask that question.