docking cow dog's tails?

[kelpiegirl]

Can anyone enlighten me as to why some BC's and Cattle dogs who work cattle, have their tails docked?

Thanks

Julie

[ShoresDog]

If you find out, I'd like to know too, since Daisy's tail is docked. It was that way when we got her at 1 or 1.5 yrs old. She'd come from a ranch area in Utah.

[setsail]

Jackson was found in cattle/ranch area in eastern colorado and it looks like his tail is broken. He has a natural "break" about halfway where you can feel the bones in the tail go down and out at a 90 degree angle. A lot of of collies have that dropped tail look, but most can at least hold their tails up. Jackson can't. His tail never goes any higher than his back, if that and the end doesn't wag at all . Just the butt wags. And his tail usually rests to one side like he can't keep it straight. So I wonder if they are prone to breaking? A lot of docked collies I've see have the dock right above where his is all messed up.

[juliepoudrier]

So I wonder if they are prone to breaking? A lot of docked collies I've see have the dock right above where his is all messed up.

I don't know that it's because the tail is *prone* to breaking except in the sense that that they break when stepped on by cattle, so easier to dock and prevent dogs ending up with tails like Jackson's. At least that's what I've been told.

 

J.

[Billsmom]

I've had Australian Cattle Dogs born with that kind of bent tail, it happened in two unrelated litters. For the most part though, I think it is done just because it's tradition. Certain areas of the country seem to be into docking stockdog tails, and when I've asked why, I 'm told that that's the way you're supposed to do it. Having worked cattle with the Australian Cattle Dog (heeler) with tails, I do know that they really use that tail as a rudder, but I couldn't say that not having a tail would be that much of a handicap.

[stockdogranch]

Certain areas of the country seem to be into docking stockdog tails, and when I've asked why, I 'm told that that's the way you're supposed to do it.

 

I think you're right--in some areas, it's just the thing to do. I've never seen a dog get its tail stepped on or otherwise have one in the way, and it seems to me the tail was put there for a reason,

 

Anna

[Olivia]

Maybe I'm way off base here but border collies' tails aren't really that long, most reaching just past the hocks. I always figured that if your dog was that close to the stock but facing the wrong direction (tail toward the cows/sheep) then you had bigger worries than whether or not the tail was going to get stepped on.

 

I'm with Anna, the tail is there for a reason, why mess with mother nature?

 

Olivia

[workindogs]

I HAVE seen a border collie tail get stepped on by a horse....the dog got underfoot and the tail was skinned and broken.

 

I think the docking is mostly tradition out of fear of an accident like this. That said, I wouldn't do it...the tail is more valuable for balance.

[Sue R]

I would not be surprised if some of the "reason" is because the tail would accumulate burrs, mud, briars, etc.

 

A tail serves a purpose. Removing it for anything but health reasons sounds selfish or ignorant to me. Breeding for no tails is a different issue, I suppose.

[juliepoudrier]

I don't think anyone here is actually advocating docked tails. The question was "why are they docked" and we're all just reporting the reasons (excuses?) we've heard.... (Of course, I also think it's ridiculous and cruel to dock a dairy cow's tail, but it sure is done a lot! )

 

J.

[justdogs]

Traditionally there were two reasons for docking that I heard about. 1) was to prove ownership. If a dog was loose with a docked tail, they were less likely to be shot. 2) Also some breeds like Aussies have naturally docked tails People want all dogs to look the same, and to be identified as a certain breed based on it being "safer" for the dog.

 

One may wonder why the ears are cropped for the Bauceron and Briard; while the tail is natural. I think it is to make them look more alet.

 

With hunting dogs, many dock to "protect the tail" from burrs and injury. It depends on the breed as labs, foxhounds and English Pointers are natural while the Brittany and many spaniels are docked. Maybe they got burrs and injuries while flushing birds? Maybe that is why Labs were bred to have tails that clear tables, and feel no pain?

 

Mostly now people seem to dock (as stated above) because that is what you do.

[Sue R]

I think that, with many breeds where tails are docked for "cosmetic" reasons, it's because an undocked tail just looks sort of doofy - like in the Airedale. I don't see it worthwhile to trim/set ears in order for a dog to appear a certain way - but I must admit it's taken me a long time to get used to Boxers and Rottweilers with natural ears (and would find it similarly "silly-looking" to see a Great Dane "au naturel".

 

As many have said, a lot of things are done just because "that's the way it's done" but I think we need to consider what our reasons are before we mess around with ears, tails, etc. Is the reason worthwhile, healthful, etc., or just a matter of vanity or not understanding why something is a certain way naturally? Of course, a great deal of "show dog" breedig has developed unnatural, unhealthful breeds from purposeful, healthy ancestors (Cocker Spaniels, Bulldogs, you name it).

 

Julie - I've done dairy herd testing at just one farm where they banded cow tails and found it utterly repulsive. The cows couldn't swish for flies although I understood that the reason was to avoid those mucky, yucky tails swinging about particularly during milking.

 

I doubt there is anyone on these boards who would truly advocate docking, setting, etc., without there being a genuine health (or other) reason for it.

[kelpiegirl]

I seem to remember, pretty much all the farmers employing hoses to clean off the rears of these cows. Cutting their tails off? Pffft.

Julie

ps: I agree, no one is "for" it- I just recently saw some pics of docked BC's, and they just looked plain odd to me.

 

I think that, with many breeds where tails are docked for "cosmetic" reasons, it's because an undocked tail just looks sort of doofy - like in the Airedale. I don't see it worthwhile to trim/set ears in order for a dog to appear a certain way - but I must admit it's taken me a long time to get used to Boxers and Rottweilers with natural ears (and would find it similarly "silly-looking" to see a Great Dane "au naturel".

 

As many have said, a lot of things are done just because "that's the way it's done" but I think we need to consider what our reasons are before we mess around with ears, tails, etc. Is the reason worthwhile, healthful, etc., or just a matter of vanity or not understanding why something is a certain way naturally? Of course, a great deal of "show dog" breedig has developed unnatural, unhealthful breeds from purposeful, healthy ancestors (Cocker Spaniels, Bulldogs, you name it).

 

Julie - I've done dairy herd testing at just one farm where they banded cow tails and found it utterly repulsive. The cows couldn't swish for flies although I understood that the reason was to avoid those mucky, yucky tails swinging about particularly during milking.

 

I doubt there is anyone on these boards who would truly advocate docking, setting, etc., without there being a genuine health (or other) reason for it.

[FRANK DOWNEY]

It's more like an issue with the infamous AKC so that all of the dogs should look just like the picture says they are supposed to look.It should be a crime to dock dogs tails for any reason other than health.On that subject how many dock lambs tails?

[Sue R]

...how many dock lambs tails?

 

I don't have sheep so perhaps I have no right to reply but docking of lambs' tails does provide a benefit for wool sheep - clean rear ends that don't gather muck and attract flies (and lead to fly strike, which is a horrible health situation for sheep). Folks with hair sheep (in my limited experience) have no need to dock and don't.

[juliepoudrier]

It's more like an issue with the infamous AKC so that all of the dogs should look just like the picture says they are supposed to look.It should be a crime to dock dogs tails for any reason other than health.On that subject how many dock lambs tails?

Yep, Sue's right, docking lambs' tails isn't done solely for cosmetic reasons, but for health reasons in most cases (well if you don't count the extremely short docks on club lamb tails, which is quite controversial and quite WRONG IMO):

1. prevents flystrike from manure caught in dirty wool

2. in some breeds, a long tail can interfere with breeding

 

FWIW, my neighbor, who didn't wish to dock tails, had an outbreak of coccidiosis in the late spring/early summer and found that she had to work hard to literally wash those long wooly tails full of diarrhea to try and keep the flies/maggots off. Not at all easy or pleasant. But as flystrike is a very real and dangerous risk to sheep, she had no choice but to wash tails until she got the outbreak under control.

 

I may be remembering incorrectly, but ISTM that at least in the past, undocked lambs going to market brought less money because lack of docking was viewed as an indication of poor husbandry, so the lambs were worth less. I don't know if that's still the case, especially with the great rise of hair sheep, which are typically not docked, going to livestock markets. At any rate, the tail has no market value (well, except with perhaps a few breeds and within some few ethnic communities).

 

Unlike cattle, sheep don't really use their tails, even when kept long, to swipe at flies. That said, when I dock, I dock long enough that the tail covers all external "private parts" of a sheep, for the protection and well being of the sheep. I guess the practice of docking dairy cattle is more about expedience and sanitation than anything else--there really is no reason that cow tails couldn't be washed prior to milking, except that it would cost the dairy farmer time and money, and for most farmers (family, not corporate) that may be the cost that would push them over the edge. That said, I certainly do hope that they provide decent fly control for the poor animals (and truth be told, if I had to choose, I'd choose a little manure on a tail over all sorts of chemicals all over the cow, if fly control is the issue).

 

And if we're talking practicality, I believe that most docking of tails at least in dogs was rooted in a practical purpose as well (at least in the view of the folks doing the docking at the time the breed was developed), and then when the fancy adopted that particular breed, the docked tail was made part of the standard and docking continued, even as the dogs were no longer being used in a capacity that had necessitated (whether you or I agree that it was necessary isn't the point here) the docking in the first place.

 

ETA: This year I bred only my karakuls. They are a fat-tailed breed and have a small "rat tail" portion of the tail below the fat part. Many folks do dock that smaller portion, leaving the big fat part intact. This is what I did for the ewe lambs I retained for breeding. (A semi-interesting aside: non-karakul rams can have a difficult time breeding a karakul ewe because of the presence of that fat tail. Karakul rams have a mounting technique that enables them to get past that tail, although I understand that if the fat part is too large, even karakul rams will have difficulty breeding the ewe.) All the ram lambs were left completely intact as I plan to sell them to an ethnic market that prefers its lambs "unblemished."

 

J.

[Sue R]

Well, Julie, you covered a lot of points that I neglected to mention! That's a "sheep lady" for you!

 

I have seen the "show lamb" docking and, like many other traditional things that have gone awry in the show ring culture, it is an extreme version of a practical bit of husbandry. It's meant to make the hindquarter look bulkier and meatier, not meant to benefit the lamb/sheep.

 

That's the kind of mentality possessed by a Texas man who tells you how to train "track dogs" - take a Border Collie and train it to work the show lambs around the track, so the lambs will bulk up with muscle. By the way, he teaches the lambs to respond properly to the dog with a shock prod. Good husbandry, right?

 

Nothing like doing all sorts of artificial things to win in the ring. So, what does it mean to have the Grand Champion Lamb produced under these conditions? An animal that's deceptively meaty in appearance, that wouldn't contribute to the gene pool, etc. Sort of like assuming that the beauty queen really, really looks "like that" naturally.

 

I have spoken to a Rottie breeder, a breed in which the same thing is happening - the extremely short dock (virtually NO tail bones remaining at all) is quite the style these days. This breeder was expressing dismay that one of her dogs was not docked that short, and it was a matter of significant disappointment to her. Gee whiz, aren't there more important things in life?

 

Then there's the well-known and respected Beagle breeder who, mind you, considers the hunting beagle breeders to be nothing more than totally irresponsible backyard-breeders and the source of all problems in the beagle breed (I gather from him that problems don't exist in the AKC/show culture beagle and, of course, they possess all their hunting instincts even though they are bred for the show ring).

 

A show associate of his (another breed) was concerned that their dog's tail carriage was just a bit too high (real significant, right?) and so he said he could put that person in touch with a vet that would "take care of that". Not legitimate with AKC, of course, to cosmetically alter a show dog (other than ear cropping and setting, and tail docking) but if no one knows... Of course, this is a person who thinks that the Barbie Collies that win Westminster are the epitomy of the Border Collie breed...

 

Done venting, I hope.

[FRANK DOWNEY]

Getting back to the real reason this thread was started in the first place,I USED to hunt wild hogs with pit bulls and we always left the tails intact because it gave him more feel when he was doing battle with the hogs.Also I heard that a dog couldn't walk a log as easly with a docked tail than normaly would be able to do so.All jokes aside if you are doing it for appreance then it needs to stop even if it isn't the craze or the fashon,God forbid we do something that may upset someone else when it comes to screwing with Gods way of creation.

[red97lxscort]

My bc/cattledog has a docked tail when we got him from a "shelter" at 3 months old. I love him all the same, but I wish his tail wasn't docked... his ears are still normal however.

-Justin

[Liz P]

I remember reading in some dog book years ago that in the UK there was a tax on tails so the working class and poor docked them while the rich left them on as a sign of wealth. Anyone know if that is true?

[ClarkCattleCompany]

Ive not seen many Bcs with docked tails around here but alot of farmers where i live use blue heelers everyone has told me that the reason they dock there tail is because of so many doing chute work or in tight pens with cattle and the cow will step on there tail then stomp the dog ( i have heard several stories like this from the people that use the dogs at the stock barn ) i have 3 cow dogs and none of there tails are docked and we have never had a promblem with this i dont really like docked tails i think they have them for a reason

[Howdyjabo]

At some time in the past it was common for there to be a dog tax- but working dogs were exempt. Germany is a specific example.

The way to distinguish a working dog was to have its tail docked- they figured that it would take effort and ruin the looks of dogs so that only working people would bother to cut the dogs tails off.

 

Little did they know that the breeders would cut the tails off to get the break -so LOTS of breeds either swiched to tail-les or new breeds were started with tail less characteristics.