Roz in training....video

[Rainierlass]

Had Roz back on sheep for the first time since December - at that time (which was her first ever) she was a maniac to say the least!! Totally blowing thru a stick with flag and ignoring any verbal commands- - - - I have worked with her over the last few months outside of the pens - - solidifying her "that'll do's" and trying to get more focus on me - - training her with such a strong instinct has been a trick for a newbie!!

 

After agility class yesterday we decided to see if she was ready for another go around in the small pen with the school sheep - - we used a rattle paddle instead of a flag and the difference was amazing - she respected it so much more - we actually got her to unlock her eye and relax - - she did great! My trainer was well pleased as was I ~~~

At the moment she is not too happy with me - - after a fun weekend she went to the vet's this morning for her spay..picked her up this afternoon .....she seems to be resting well and not too 'with-it" at the moment.......her 1st b-day is tomorrow - talk about a mean mommy - Happy Birthday Roz!!

[PSmitty]

Interesting! I'm glad she's making progress.

 

Someone please tell me what I'm seeing, though, since I'm a total newbie. It looks like the trainer isn't letting Roz anywhere *near* the sheep. At this stage, is the idea to keep her far back, but circle them?

[r b m]

Interesting! I'm glad she's making progress.

 

Someone please tell me what I'm seeing, though, since I'm a total newbie. It looks like the trainer isn't letting Roz anywhere *near* the sheep. At this stage, is the idea to keep her far back, but circle them?

 

 

Yes, she is teaching her to respect "the bubble." Different sheep also have various distances that the dog must respect as well. In too tight, the stock becomes nervous and typically breaks apart. Too far away and the stock may not move or change direction making it difficult for the dog to flank. You want you and your dog to find the right pressure point for your dog to control the stock with eye.... this is how I interpret it.

[juliepoudrier]

Paula,

I assume we are seeing only a small part of the training session, and I don't mean to be criticizing this trainer, but I personally would like to see a dog be allowed the sheep sometimes instead of pushed/chased off (and maybe there were times during this session when she actually did work the sheep). Different trainers have different styles, obviously, and I like to let the youngsters come on to the sheep and then give them a verbal correction when they are disrepecting the sheeps' space, which then allows the dog to *choose* how to correct the situation. In this way the dog learns to think for itself and adjust its own actions in response to the sheep instead of being forced into a particular spot. Too much pushing out or chasing off in the early training can come back to bite you later with a dog that won't come onto the stock or through on a shed when you need it to. Anyway, I'm not trying to start a fight or insult anyone, but my first thought was the same as yours--the dog isn't being allowed to actually work the sheep at all. But then we are seeing just a small snapshot of the session and so it's hard to say what is really going on.

 

J.

[PSmitty]

Julie, since I know so very little, I didn't want to assume anything, but I really wondered why the dog wasn't allowed (ever) to get up to the sheep. Like you said, I'm sure we missed some things not on the video, but still...All the pushing and chasing back with the paddle? I didn't see the dog actually getting to do anything. Glad to hear my instincts were kinda headed in the right direction.

 

Thanks for the clarification.

[r b m]

When a dog first gets to work sheep, I understand letting your dog get right up on the sheep and figure it out. However, doesn't there come a time when you need to get in there and get your dog out wider? A handlers presence or voice can usually do the trick, but I don't think it's that uncommon to use a staff to get a dog out wider. I've read/heard of handlers not getting in between the dog and sheep, but how exactly do you execute it without the stock being harmed?

[Denise Wall]

I'm not going to be as diplomatic as the others. She never gives to the dog no matter what the dog does, just constant pressure. What I see in this clip is a dog being turned off from working sheep, not a dog be allowed to learn how work sheep.

[kelpiegirl]

Denise

That is my take on it as well. When doing this exercize you can put pressure on to push them out, but you need to give them a chance, and not anticipate when they will come in. I too believed that the dog would be turned off working sheep. When the trainer held both hands out when apparently asking for a change in direction, the dog at that point just sees someone completely blocking them from the sheep. I will add that like Julie mentioned we didn't see the whole session. Pressure on, pressure off, applies here.

Julie

 

I'm not going to be as diplomatic as the others. She never gives to the dog no matter what the dog does, just constant pressure. What I see in this clip is a dog being turned off from working sheep, not a dog be allowed to learn how work sheep.

[Rainierlass]

In reply to your concerns - as I said this was Roz's second time in with sheep - - her first time during her instinct test she was extremely aggressive and she needed to learn to set up her negative space - - and to unlock her eye - - thus the use of the paddle - she heard lots of "good girl's" during this time and I assure you it was not used to turn her off to sheep - just to respect the handler and to listen - which we achieved in this exercise - - what you don't see is her next time in - no paddle and she relaxed and worked perfectly - -

[Bill Fosher]

Hi Denise,

 

Early this morning I wrote what you wrote (more or less) and decided not to post it until I had had a chance to wake up and reconsider. My grandmother's admonition to say nothing at all if you can't say anything nice popped up in my head. It does that occasionally, despite appearances to the contrary.

 

Any trainer who did this to my dog -- particularly a young one -- would not see my dog again. I don't care if it was for one and a half minutes or for one and a half years. I don't believe there's a context in which this kind of pressure is warranted. From what I could see the dog seemed to have some glimmers of correct stock work that were corrected just as surely and quickly as its mistakes. (Two examples: at about 29 seconds, the trainer turns her back and the dog starts to come onto the sheep. The dog gets a paddle wagged in front of its face for its trouble. Roughly the same thing happens again at 1:34)

 

The dog was never allowed to be think, choose, or be right. No matter what it did, it got pushed away from the sheep. This dog is not learning anything about sheep -- it's learning to fear a raddle paddle. Nothing good will come of it. I don't care what happened in the rest of the lesson.

 

One good thing I'll say for the dog -- it didn't seem to be too terribly turned off. It looked like it only quit twice.

[Denise Wall]

In reply to your concerns - as I said this was Roz's second time in with sheep - - her first time during her instinct test she was extremely aggressive and she needed to learn to set up her negative space - - and to unlock her eye - - thus the use of the paddle - she heard lots of "good girl's" during this time and I assure you it was not used to turn her off to sheep - just to respect the handler and to listen - which we achieved in this exercise - - what you don't see is her next time in - no paddle and she relaxed and worked perfectly - -

 

This doesn't really address my concerns. Perhaps those experienced in training dogs on sheep can see more from this clip (even imagine what went on the first time and the time after), than you can. What you view as working "perfectly" afterward might differ from my view. I totally believe she was easier to handle, though.

 

Stockdog training is not like any other kind of dog training. It's not about "good girls," it's about feel and ever-changing pressure balance in a three way relationship with living creatures. It doesn't matter to me that a paddle was used. It was the use of pressure that was wrong, not what was used to apply the pressure. What I was watching was the amount of pressure applied, the timing, when (if) it was released, and the dog's reaction to it.

 

IMO one of the most common problems novices have is thinking they can hold the dog off the sheep, which makes them apply constant pressure. This turns working stock into being all about them and the dog and not the dog learning to handle the sheep with the person stepping in when needed. It sets up the dog to fight the handler for the sheep, not learn self control. I'm just not a proponent of shutting dogs down in order to gain control over them. Sorry.

[Pipedream Farm]

Can a dog learn to balance if it is never allowed to get to the balance point?

Can a dog learn the beginnings of an outrun if it is never allowed to go to the other side of the sheep?

 

Mark

[Bo Peep]

I think the paddle is a good tool, but it's true. The dog should have gotten to the balance point and given a down. That would have worked out very well and then allowed to walk up a little. I know it's early. You don't want to frighten her away from herding. She seems very interested. I'd be interested to see the rest of the video.

[stockdogranch]

I agree with Denise, Bill, and Julie (and others, I forget who else posted)...what is going on here is what I call "fending"--the handler is fending the dog off of the sheep. The pup looked confused more than once to me--when, as mentioned, the handler wanted it to change direction, but stood there with both arms out. This pup looked pretty resilient, but after too much more of this, I would expect that it would begin to get very frustrated and either give up, or try very hard to beat the handler and go take a grip. I wouldn't blame it for doing either.

 

I have actually come across several dogs in the past few months that were started like this--one spent a year and a half with a (very) well-known trainer who got it to circling, then threw stuff (bits of garden hose, I think it was) at the dog to widen it out. The result? The dog blindly did circles around the stock, not even looking at them, but looking up to the sky waiting for s**t to fall on its head. The dog never got to actually be ON the sheep to get a feel for them and to work them. The dog is now making some progress, but it is slow progress, and the dog's default mode, whenever it gets nervous or confused, is to start doing those blind circles again.

Anna

[r b m]

So then what is the best way in your opinion to start a dog? How do you widen the flanks? And how do you protect the stock if you're not in between them?

[kelpiegirl]

Some dogs are wide to start, some are close. Many get wider as they calm down, and settle in. You need to take it slow- and work in an area where you can ensure the sheep can't get far away, and if necessary put a line on the dog. If you try and get between the dog and the stock, a) the dog learns nothing, and you can't get there without chasing the dog = fighting the dog. And we all know that fighting your dog is not what it is about. You have to let some unfolding of wings happen, while keeping you and the sheep calm. Circling is not something that you want your dog to do ad nauseum- that's why the change in direction, and then go to the fence, and stop the motion- not a carousel ride.... Btw, when changing direction, you don't put both arms up and lean on your dog- use your arm and/or a tool, lean into that space, and immediately give when the dog changes direction.

Julie

 

So then what is the best way in your opinion to start a dog? How do you widen the flanks? And how do you protect the stock if you're not in between them?

[r b m]

Hmm... My trainer always put me between the dog and sheep to start. Stick out one direction(give command) and then step off the balance line in the same direction(or we'd start off balance). After a long while, if my dog was still cutting her flanks, she'd have me step in and put pressure to back off or sometimes smack the ground. She always made sure for me not to cross the balance line(to avoid confusion) but would have me point the staff at the inside shoulder. It makes sense that some dogs may naturally get wider, but what if the dog just doesn't get it?

 

As for circling, she's always made sure to have me back up and find the fetch after a few solid flanks.

[kelpiegirl]

Yes, you do start at the sheep, with the sheep behind you, the dog goes around. But you do not stay between them at all points- I can't imagine how dizzy I would get... As for flanks, in the beginning, I don't believe there are true flanks- your dog is feeling the bubble and balancing. We are talking a rank novice dog here. In the video, there were no flanks, nothing but circles.

In all fairness we didn't see the whole lesson, so much is left to wonder...

 

 

Hmm... My trainer always put me between the dog and sheep to start. Stick out one direction(give command) and then step off the balance line in the same direction(or we'd start off balance). After a long while, if my dog was still cutting her flanks, she'd have me step in and put pressure to back off or sometimes smack the ground. She always made sure for me not to cross the balance line(to avoid confusion) but would have me point the staff at the inside shoulder. It makes sense that some dogs may naturally get wider, but what if the dog just doesn't get it?

 

As for circling, she's always made sure to have me back up and find the fetch after a few solid flanks.

[ItsADogsLyfe]

so where is the link to this video?

[borderlicious]

Looks like it was removed. Hrm.

[Bill Fosher]

You need to always keep in mind that a Border collie may not be learning what you think you're teaching. What bugged me the most about the video wasn't the paddle or the endless circling per se, it was that when teachable moments came up, the trainer didn't sieze on them, but instead stuck with the game plan, which was apparently to never let the dog anywhere near the sheep. No matter what the dog did, it was told it was wrong -- verbal praise would only serve to confuse the matter further.

 

Imagine if you were hired to do data entry, and every time you tried to get to the keyboard your boss pulled the chair away and told you that you were doing a great job -- just keep on trying. Would you feel a little confused? Would you think about quitting?

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

There's more than one way to skin a cat - and some ways make more sense than others. I've seen this approach used on dogs with little actual instinct to work pressure and tons of prey drive - Bouviers, Belgian Shepherds. It works because the main point there is to get the dog to mind you and whatever weapon you are using.

 

It's such an odd thing to see it applied to a Border Collie, especially one that seems to be offering some answers despite the rough handling.

 

If you are standing in there next to your dog - either before sending your dog or while attempting to widen the dog - you will be blocking the space where you want the dog to be, the very next moment. If you stand back and release the dog from your side, then walk to where the dog just left, the sheep will enter the space you just exited, the dog will enter the space the sheep just exited, and the dog has a chance to relax and give the sheep some space. You will have made it very easy for him to feel that "giving" to the sheep feels good and is what you want.

 

If he still cuts in even after being given opportunity, then you correct him - but you are still leaving open all the space for him to correct himself. If you rush in and swish him back physically, then the sheep will go to where you were (the edge of the ring), but the dog will be too far back to cover unless he's very clever, and the dog will be tempted to slice in as he rushes around and there will be nowhere for the sheep to go because you are still standing in the middle - KA-BOOM!

 

Here's a couple of slide shows to illustrate:

 

Here's Jack Knox sending my puppy Ted and then reversing his direction. Notice how he goes into the space the pup just left (the sheep follow him) and then immediately he not only goes backwards but literally turns his back and gives the sheep plenty of space to move off the pup once he's in the right place. Notice how Jack's not even holding the stick up for the last few frames - no need, Jack is himself standing in all the wrong space and offering the pup all the room in the world to do the right thing. Look how far off Ted is in the last few frames.

 

http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v296/bro...=1168963432.pbw

 

Here's Jack sending Ted and then "giving" to him when he's right. And by the way, this pup was a house afire and there was definitely some slicing and dicing going on the first few moments in the pen! This was Ted's first formal time on the sheep.

 

http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v296/bro...=1168963562.pbw

 

I do hate to pile on, but this thread is a good illustration of how trainers are not all alike and some methods work better than others.

 

Edited to correct second link. I hope.

[Bo Peep]

Just goes to show how much knowledge Jack Knox has. Great photo's.

[PSmitty]

Maggie, I'm sure you felt "jumped on" and that's why you removed the video. No one meant any offense to you or Roz, I hope you know that. I know you're proud of Roz, and you should be! It's just the trainer's methods that are in question, and I think the more experienced folks were just trying to give you some things to consider with Roz's training.