Training Q's

[MommaLove]

If you've read previous posts of mine, you'll know that Juno was very shy when we brought her home from the breeder, and I spent a lot of time and energy building confidence and socialising her. She's been phenomenal!

 

Now we are hitting the doggy-adolescence phase. The teenage phase. 5-6 months. All of Juno's instincts are kicking in and she's got her own ideas about how things should be.

 

For the most part, this is not bad. She's smart and sensible most of the time. However, I'm finding that, for the first time, Juno's testing her boundaries.

 

Previously her recall was about 95% - she nearly always came when called, except for really high-distraction situations, and even then would come on the second call. Suddenly, Juno seems to think the "come" command means, "I'd like you to come on over here please, if you feel like it, sometime in the near future," and not "come and sit directly in front of me immediately". She is also beginning to pull on lead despite heeling beautifully all summer long.

 

I'm not a drill sergeant with my dogs, but I do expect them to listen well and do as they are told. I don't have time (or ability, with babe in arms) to chase down a dog who is not coming when called. I also expect loose-leash walking, because with four wee children I can't have a dog pulling me down the sidewalk when we go out.

 

I've been rewarding Juno exuberantly for great recalls (click-treat with "jackpots" and lots of verbal praise/ear scratches/belly rubs) and also going back to basics with click-treat for heeling, but that doesn't seem to matter. The click-treat seems to have lost effectiveness, as she no longer cares about figuring out what earns a click. I feel like this would be an appropriate time to move on from clicker training and start giving some corrections, because I KNOW Juno's basic obedience commands are very solid as she's been doing very well in all kinds of different settings for the better half of the summer. She graduates from obedience class tomorrow night (a clicker class that is strictly NO CORRECTIONS!) and has done extremely well. It's just lately that this bit of I'll-do-what-I-want attitude has started to sneak in. I want to nip things in the bud before bigger issues arise.

 

HOWEVER - I have seen Juno immediately withdraw when I've given some verbal corrections over the past few days, and I don't want to compromise the confidence and trust that we worked so hard to build (a stern "NO" or "Off", for example, caused submissive posture and unwillingness to do anything at all for a short time).

 

My training experience began many years ago with someone who was all about corrections (using a choke chain, etc), which is not for me. Since then, I've done many years of clicker training, with no corrections. I want to strike a balance between the two.

 

So my question is, how to make it known that obeying is required, not optional, with a dog who tends to be sensitive, without destroying trust? I love the feeling of TEAM that exists between us. We work together really well, and I don't want to lose that.

[rushdoggie]

I'm a 99% non-correction trainer, but I believe there will come a time in every young dogs life when the reward for coming that he has always gotten will be overshadowed by whatever is more interesting. And, I will have to "walk the dog down."

 

Usually, I only have to do this once, especially with a fairly sensitive dog. Some dogs have to have this happen more than once.

 

They key is that she comes and is rewarded (sometimes lavishly) or you will go get her. Do not call her, have her ignore you and you let it happen. This can be a real PITA when you are busy and the damn dog is ignoring you. But, its worth it, to take the time to do it as it makes a point.

 

When I "walk him down" I try to stay calm, don't act/be angry. Keep a neutral facial expression.

 

You call, she ignores you, so get your collar and lead and walk towards the dog. When she changes direction you do as well, always going in her direction, with no emotion, walk with a determined yet leisurely pace.

 

At first your dog will think shes playing a game of keep away. Resist the urge to lunge for her when she is close. Stay calm, take your time, you are not speaking, you are just coming to get her, you are on a mission.

 

As this continues the dog gets worried and realizes it's not a game. You may worry that she's forgotten that you gave her a command. Too bad, it was her responsibility to react when you called her, and she will learn the importance of this.

 

You start to notice the dog is getting more stressed, she doesn't know how get out of this predicament. She will almost come close to you, then retreat..that's OK...the longer this takes, the better impression it will leave.

 

A successful 'catch' would be when she presents himself where you can put the collar on without grabbing him or restraining him. Always give her the opportunity to escape.

 

You called her to a specific place. Take her back to that place at a quick pace and briskly hand sit her in front of you. No yelling, no anger. You called her, she didn't come, you brought her to where you called her. SO now remove the collar and release her without saying a word. Call her again, and when she comes (and in most cases, she will) reward her as normal.

 

This works on a dog who really understands what a recall means. Be honest with yourself about how fluent she is in reality, how much you have practiced on a long line around serious distractions, etc. Also, as she goes through this stage, be careful that shes not loose unless she is in a safe (meaning fenced) area.

 

The message is clear: come when I call, or I will come get you.

[Cynthia P]

I just want to add that your dog needs to know how to take a correction if you are going to do any stock work.

 

This is the normal age for them to start blowing you off; teenage time! continue with your reinforcements etc but you may want to put her on a long line; if she doesnt come reel her in.

 

As far as the sulking after the NO. I'm not saying you need to be harsh but after a correction you should go back to normal life, if she is sulking ignore her. Border collies are sensitive but in order to train on stock there will be a little adversity and knowing that a slight bit adversity isn't going to kill her will go a long way later on.

 

Cynthia

[Notorious]

My pup just came out of the stage. I kinda sped it up though. Get a 30-50 foot training lead go to a park or something and just let her run around don't hold the lead. Call her and if she doesn't come give the leash a little tug. Also for about 10 minutes just make her come over and over again even if you only go 5 feet away. You can easily get 50 recalls in 10 minutes. Then just let your pup have fun and give an occasional recall. After doing that for about a week my dogs recall is 100%.

 

With your heel every time she pulls make her sit and wait like 15 seconds. It'll register in her head that if she pulls its going to take a lot longer to get to where they wanna go. You won't get very far on walks at first, but it's good reminder training for the annoying defiance stage.

[MommaLove]

 

As far as the sulking after the NO. I'm not saying you need to be harsh but after a correction you should go back to normal life, if she is sulking ignore her. Border collies are sensitive but in order to train on stock there will be a little adversity and knowing that a slight bit adversity isn't going to kill her will go a long way later on.

 

Cynthia

 

Good to know, thanks, I'll make sure to ignore any sulking!

 

 

 

We're going out to a national park today. I'm going to pick up a long line on the way there and do plenty of recalls while we're on the beach (this has always been a place where her recalls are nearly 100%, but not the other day!). It's also a good place to work on the sit-and-wait thing for heeling, because the kids can run around and have fun while I take my time with Juno, with no worries about cars or dangers.

[Root Beer]

So my question is, how to make it known that obeying is required, not optional, with a dog who tends to be sensitive, without destroying trust? I love the feeling of TEAM that exists between us. We work together really well, and I don't want to lose that.

 

One thing that you might want to consider is branching out into some trick training. I know that might seem to have nothing whatsoever to do with recalls and heeling, but with a dog who is sensitive and needs to build more trust, tricks are fantastic because they can be less "must be right or else" for you at the same time that they build high value into working with you. Tricks can help a sensitive dog's brain develop in ways that help the dog have more confidence and trust in all-around situations.

 

For the recall, I would also work whiplash turns, many of them in different situations. In high criteria situations, I would use high value rewards, such as a toy, or permission to explore (even if on a long line for safety) as the reinforcer for good whiplash turns.

 

One thing that helped me a lot when Dean was an adolescent and it sometimes seemed that he had checked his brain at the door was to remember that his brain was not finished developing yet. I provided him with plenty of structure, but I also knew that there would be some measure of "brain blips" until he matured. There were times when I chose a leash over working a recall, and in retrospect, I see how good of a choice that was. It all came together when he got out of that stage of his life in spite of the fact that I let certain things go for a while as he went through adolescence. He's the most obedient of my dogs by far.

[Gloria Atwater]

I think that's pretty typical behavior for that age. They're like a 3 year old kid, suddenly learning they have their own identity, their own wishes and wants, and she's testing her boundaries a bit.

 

I do much the same as Rushdoggie suggests. I'll just walk the pup down, no anger, neutral expression and neutral body language - and I don't SAY anything. I'm not calling or correcting. I'm just walking towards the dog with the leash in hand. No matter how many times she scoots away or changes direction, I just keep coming.

 

Think Terminator: inexorable and inescapable.

 

Once caught, I don't make any fuss one way or another, I just walk the pup back to where we started and resume a Sit just as originally planned. THEN I give praise and be happy and cheerful.

 

And just like that, it's over and we carry on. The trick is to be patiently inexorable, do not show emotion, and once the moment is over, pretend it never happened. This includes ignoring any sulking, too.

 

Best of luck! She'll get through this and so will you.

 

~ Gloria

[gcv-border]

 

I've been rewarding Juno exuberantly for great recalls (click-treat with "jackpots" and lots of verbal praise/ear scratches/belly rubs) and also going back to basics with click-treat for heeling, but that doesn't seem to matter. The click-treat seems to have lost effectiveness, as she no longer cares about figuring out what earns a click.

 

Yes, this is a phase and keep telling yourself that she (and you) will come out the other side in good shape. But that is not to say that you should stop training. I agree with the replies above.

 

Here is another strategy: You say that you have been rewarding her 'exuberantly' with treats and verbal praise. It is possible that at this stage, Juno no longer values these rewards as highly as she once did and, quite frankly, you are probably boring to her, so you need to up the ante. (I am not picking on you by saying you are boring. It is a quite common training problem. Probably most of us get in the situation when we have to try something new to keep our dog's interest.)

 

Try using 'restrained recalls' to get her refocused on you. Hopefully, Juno loves toys (squeaky toys or fleece tugs). Have someone hold her about 20-30 feet away from you, then you call her and Juno is released to come flying to you while you squeak the toy or wave the tug around. Once she gets to you, have a PARTY. I like a tug toy the best because of the close personal interaction, but choose the toy that Juno likes best. As your training progresses, increase the distance. Once she is really into the game, make it even more exciting by running away from her while waving the tug toy. Let your helper release Juno and when she is about 1/2-way to you, RUN like crazy away from her. (She will probably think - OMG, Mommy is running away with my toy. I have to to run really, really fast.) Reward her with a great game of tug. (This is restrained recalls in a nutshell. Feel free to ask questions if you decide to try this method.)

 

Yes, this is a bit more effort on your part than waiting for her to come to you (boring), and I feel that this technique really is a lot more interesting and rewarding for the dog. I know that if my dog thinks that he is going to get a toy for coming to me, he returns a lot faster than if he thinks he is getting a food treat. Juno's recalls will really improve once she becomes invested in listening to you again.

 

Jovi

[MommaLove]

Yes, I will sure be glad when this phase is over. I think this is my least favourite age with dogs!

 

Root Beer - we have been doing trick training and Juno loves it! We have a lot of fun with it Of course we will keep this up!

 

Jovi - I am certain I am highly boring to Juno right now. I love your suggestion for restrained recalls with toys and chasing. Juno is toy-crazy and bursts with excitement over anything that squeaks. I'm just starting to realise the extent of her toy drive and how wonderfully rewarding toy play is for her - much more than food! It took me this long to "get it" because our obedience class was strictly food rewards, and it was only last week in our tricks class that I was encouraged to use toys as rewards instead. Of course it makes perfect sense that I should create situations in which Juno REALLY WANTS to come running to me!

 

So I have a pretty good sense of how I'm going to liven up our training sessions. I guess now I'm wondering what an appropriate correction would be in public if I'm holding the baby and Juno is yanking ahead on the leash? I previously didn't have a problem walking Juno while holding the baby (I wear the baby most of the day in a carrier), but recently she's really been pulling - and she's STRONG! And I understand stopping, making her sit, etc. until she heels properly - but often that's not realistic when I've got 5-yo, 4-yo, and 2-yo children with me. They'll be off and running while I'm still waiting for Juno to "knock it off"! I've given a few leash corrections, which Juno totally ignores.

[Root Beer]

I realize you want to use corrections, but I am going to make this suggestion anyway. If you aren't interested, it might be helpful to someone else.

 

My suggestion in the situation that you describe would actually be to get a front clip harness. Yes, it's a management tool. No, it probably won't train your dog to walk on a loose leash. But it would give you a way to walk Juno safely when you have your children with you until her training catches up with real life.

 

And it may well help bridge her understanding of loose leash walking in your training situations and real life.

 

I did use one of these with Dean, who was super strong and a very committed puller when we first adopted him. I'll admit it was because I couldn't be bothered teaching loose leash walking when I was more interested in teaching him more fun things. (Now I would probably be more patient about getting to the more fun stuff). By the time I got around to actually working on loose leash walking, he actually pretty much had the idea from going around on the front clip harness.

[MommaLove]

I realize you want to use corrections, but I am going to make this suggestion anyway. If you aren't interested, it might be helpful to someone else.

 

My suggestion in the situation that you describe would actually be to get a front clip harness. Yes, it's a management tool. No, it probably won't train your dog to walk on a loose leash. But it would give you a way to walk Juno safely when you have your children with you until her training catches up with real life.

 

I'm not committed to corrections necessarily, more committed to having a dog who understands that proper behaviour is not optional When I ask about corrections, it is because I don't have a lot of experience in that department and do not want to do anything that will damage my dog.

 

I'm just looking up front-clip harnesses now. We use a Lupi harness on our beagle so the kids can walk her without my worrying about them suddenly getting yanked to the ground. The Lupi isn't ideal for Juno because her long fur would get tangled/pulled pretty quickly, which is why it didn't cross my mind as an option. Tho it looks like a front-clip might be better. I assume this is what you are talking about? http://www.softouchconcepts.com/ In which case, I think it could be a great tool to prevent pulling while we continue to work on reliability.

[Root Beer]

I'm just looking up front-clip harnesses now. We use a Lupi harness on our beagle so the kids can walk her without my worrying about them suddenly getting yanked to the ground. The Lupi isn't ideal for Juno because her long fur would get tangled/pulled pretty quickly, which is why it didn't cross my mind as an option. Tho it looks like a front-clip might be better. I assume this is what you are talking about? http://www.softouchconcepts.com/ In which case, I think it could be a great tool to prevent pulling while we continue to work on reliability.

 

Yes, something like that.

 

I've used the Easy Walker in the past, but I've had some issues with the adjustor clips on the front strap not working properly.

 

If I were looking to purchase another, I think I would look at the Sense-ation harness. I've heard good things about that one.

 

I know someone who got one custom fitted for her dog and it's really nice, but I don't know where she ordered it from.

[Olivia]

I will say that depending on how determined a puller Juno is, a front-clip harness may not work quiet like advertised. Might be better if you can find someone that already has one to borrow before investing in one. I've seen many many dogs that pull straight through those harnesses with the front clip just ending up being pulled to the side of the the shoulder and the dog still going straight.

 

If you want a band-aid fix I think a halti or gentle leader head halter would be better. They work on the same principle that a horse halter does and if a horse halter can control a 800lb animal a halter can control a dog. It takes some time to get a dog used to a head halter but I've used it on several foster dogs nicely.

 

In other thoughts, it is important to me for my dogs to be able to take a fair correction, learn from it and recover fine. In stock work at some point they are going to get corrected and they need to be able to think it through and move forward from it, not shut down and go sulk.

[MommaLove]

In other thoughts, it is important to me for my dogs to be able to take a fair correction, learn from it and recover fine. In stock work at some point they are going to get corrected and they need to be able to think it through and move forward from it, not shut down and go sulk.

 

What is a fair correction? It may seem silly to ask, but as I've mentioned, I've only experienced two extremes - overly harsh physical corrections (many years ago), and no corrections at all (clicker training). There seem to be so many conflicting opinions out there, I'm hoping to get a sense of what others do with their BCs so I can figure out what works for us without damaging my dog. I know there will always be trial and error in my work with Juno, but I'd like to lessen the amount of "error" on my part. What has worked in my training with my hound breeds does not typically work for Juno - she's a whole new ballgame. She THINKS; my hounds usually don't.

 

Why I'm thinking I should start introducing corrections is because I don't want Juno to come out on the other end of her adolescence thinking that she can do whatever she wants. Until recently, she was very solid in her obedience work. We practice in all sorts of high-distraction environments on a regular basis, and she was always good with heeling and had a beautiful recall. I'd like to get back to the level of reliability we previously had. I am certainly going to implement some of the suggestions I've received, but still my question remains - what is a fair correction? When is it appropriate to move beyond positive reinforcement and administer a correction?

[Maralynn]

Corrections I usually use are a light leash pop, a growly "no" and a stronger "knock it off" when the no doesn't work. I also will get into the dogs space a bit until I have their full attention - kind of a "you have no option but to listen to me". Those seem to handle most issues. I find that when starting with a good relationship in place (which it sounds like you have with Juno) that any of those corrections get my message across and doesn't at all damage the relationship I have with my dogs.

 

I use corrections when I want to stop a behavior (cat chasing...), when it's going to be the quickest way to get my point across, or if the dog is just being obnoxious. I'm all for positive training (probably 90% of what I do is positive), but if a leash pop or a growly "no" is going to get my point across quickly and clearly, then that's what I'll use.

[mum24dog]

We use a Lupi harness on our beagle so the kids can walk her without my worrying about them suddenly getting yanked to the ground.

 

If your Lupi harnesses are the same as we have here I wouldn't use one as they "work" by digging into the dog where it is sensitive under the front legs using a thin cord. Before they were first marketed a guy I know who was advising the designer brought one to show us at club and he was highly amused by the pain it caused to the dog. Nice man - not.

 

Harnesses should be comfortable and not cause pain to the dog, especially if you are aiming to train the dog to walk in a relaxed manner. Comfort means padded straps where necessary which shouldn't get tangled in a long coat.

 

I have had several extremely determined and strong pullers and all have responded well to a harness and double ended lead, either clipped to the collar and back ring or clipped to both front and back rings. The sensation of a comfortable harness can also calm down a reactive and/or fearful dog.

 

This is the sort of thing -

 

http://dog-games-shop.co.uk/perfect-fit-fleece-dog-harness

 

I used to use head collars but am aware of the serious damage they can do if a dog is a lunger so no longer do. They are also not as secure as a harness for a Houdini dog. They are fine for gentle steering of a relatively calm dog but I wouldn't risk it on a dog that might kick off out of the blue.

[mum24dog]

One thing that helped me a lot when Dean was an adolescent and it sometimes seemed that he had checked his brain at the door was to remember that his brain was not finished developing yet. I provided him with plenty of structure, but I also knew that there would be some measure of "brain blips" until he matured. There were times when I chose a leash over working a recall, and in retrospect, I see how good of a choice that was. It all came together when he got out of that stage of his life in spite of the fact that I let certain things go for a while as he went through adolescence. He's the most obedient of my dogs by far.

 

This.

 

Don't give the dog a chance to develop bad habits (as you say, use a leash ftb if necessary), but don't expect too much of a dog whose brain is temporarily mush.

 

Back off for a while until the phase is past - previous training usually comes back.

[SS Cressa]

I always consider any dog under 7months to have a puppy mentality. 7months a greater I have always consider the teenage stage. Both of my dogs till they were roughly 7 months had a 30 foot leash attached to them or till I could trust them. And when they would try to blow me off the 30 ft leash would be reattached.

 

Puppies all go through fear periods and forgetful days at least that is what I always thought. If my pups didn't remember the commands go back to the basics and retrain it. Since its still a baby.

 

Since I don't know the back story how old was she when you got her from the breeder? Or how long have you had her? Could she just now be coming out of her shell and you are starting to glimpse at the girl she really is?

[SS Cressa]

This.

 

Don't give the dog a chance to develop bad habits (as you say, use a leash ftb if necessary), but don't expect too much of a dog whose brain is temporarily mush.

 

Back off for a while until the phase is past - previous training usually comes back.

 

And what they said.

[juliepoudrier]

Others have covered this somewhat, but I just want to reemphasize that corrections are a necessary part of stockdog training, so if the future holds that sort of training, it makes sense to get a youngster used to them now to make stockdog training easier later. A reminder: Corrections are not punishment. Don't confuse the two as doing so really muddies the waters. A correction needs to be well-timed (at or right before the infraction) and once given, you move on.

 

For example, if my youngster ignores me when I call her to come, my first response might be a sharp "Hey!" (a verbal correction the instant it's clear she's ignored me), then a second recall. Often just the tone of the correction is enough to get the pup's attention so that it actually hears the next recall. I also do the walking down thing, but wanted to point out how one would introduce a simple correction into everyday training.

 

If Juno is showing signs of sulkiness at corrections now, it's very important that you work to get her past that, by going ahead and using the correction and then ignoring the sulk afterward. I can tell you from experience that nothing is more unpleasant to try to train on stock than a dog who sulks when corrected. If a youngster grabs a sheep and goes for a ride, for example, you want to be able to say something about that (a correction) without the dog responding by quitting altogether.** The last thing I want to do is have to beg a dog back to work after a legitimate correction on stock. Also, the stock will administer their own corrections at times, and you want the dog to be able to handle that without becoming completely deflated and quitting.

 

If you're never going to work stock, then I think it's fine to try to never use corrections, but if your goal is to work the dog on stock, then by all means help it to understand early that a correction means "don't do that," and that getting such a correction from the human isn't the end of the world and isn't cause for sulking, but is in fact cause to stop what it's doing and instead try something else.

 

Another example: I send my youngster around a small group of sheep that are nearby. She slices in at the top of her little outrun and tries to buzz the sheep to ge tthem moving instead of approaching them in a calm, direct manner to do a proper lift. I will correct her the second I see the lean that tells me she's going to slice and I do so by saying sharply "Ahhht!" or "Hey!" I don't chase the dog or otherwise intimidate it. I simply use my voice to say "I don't like what you're doing at this second; you better do something else." And usually while this is happening I am backing away (which takes all pressure off the pup) to give the sheep space to move forward so that the pup has a positive result for doing the task right. It's very much a dance and requires the split-second ability to see when a dog is thinking about going wrong and being able to correct the wrong thing while encouraging the right thing (a modification of a well-known Jack Knox-ism).

 

If the youngster understands a verbal correction, then that verbal correction given at the moment the dog decides to slice is generally enough to cause the dog to kick back out where it should be. The sulky dog at that point would either quit at the correction or slice anyway, then quit. Generally the correction is simply a reminder to the dog to re-engage its brain and remember to do the right thing.

 

J.

[MommaLove]

Since I don't know the back story how old was she when you got her from the breeder? Or how long have you had her? Could she just now be coming out of her shell and you are starting to glimpse at the girl she really is?

 

Juno was 10wks when we brought her home. She's almost 6mos now and has been out of her shell for a while

[MommaLove]

Others have covered this somewhat, but I just want to reemphasize that corrections are a necessary part of stockdog training, so if the future holds that sort of training, it makes sense to get a youngster used to them now to make stockdog training easier later. A reminder: Corrections are not punishment. Don't confuse the two as doing so really muddies the waters. A correction needs to be well-timed (at or right before the infraction) and once given, you move on.

 

For example, if my youngster ignores me when I call her to come, my first response might be a sharp "Hey!" (a verbal correction the instant it's clear she's ignored me), then a second recall. Often just the tone of the correction is enough to get the pup's attention so that it actually hears the next recall. I also do the walking down thing, but wanted to point out how one would introduce a simple correction into everyday training.

 

Thank you, Julie, this is just the kind of thing I was looking for. We are indeed going to be working on sheep before too long. I have noticed that when Juno is working with my escapee chickens, she will take verbal corrections with confidence and keep going - hopefully that will transfer over to her work on sheep. It's a different story when we're doing obedience work, though. She doesn't respond to corrections with the same confidence.

 

Yesterday I ignored any sulkiness, and today I found Juno to be much less sulky about the one single "HEY!" she received after not responding to a recall. I was happy with her today - came when called all but the one time, and then came after a sharp "HEY!".

 

Juno's a real goofball. Despite the annoyances that adolescence brings, she keeps me laughing every day. Her personality is simply wonderful!

[mum24dog]

Yesterday I ignored any sulkiness

 

Humans sulk - dogs don't.

 

If your dog is behaving differently with you after you have shouted at her it's because she doesn't understand why you are behaving in a way she isn't used to.

[MommaLove]

Humans sulk - dogs don't.

 

If your dog is behaving differently with you after you have shouted at her it's because she doesn't understand why you are behaving in a way she isn't used to.

 

Obviously. I believe folks have been using the term "sulking" because it immediately brings to mind a specific behaviour and is readily understood by most people.

 

I don't shout at my dog. The few verbal corrections I have given her have been firm & sharp, but not shouting. There is a wide range of verbal expression, and shouting is at a different level than a firm "Off", "No", or "Hey".