Herding cars...

[Kayleegator]

OK, I'm being a pest, every day it's a new topic!

 

My husband and I walk Kaylee for a mile or so every morning: it's good for all of us. We are teaching Heel with a modicum of success, but she still pulls. I do click & reward when she doesn't, but she hasn't got it down yet. Am considering a Gentle Leader harness: if we get it on her early enough, that should help, right?

 

In the last two days, though, she has started lunging after cars as they pass, including the herding stare and crouch. I need to replace the behavior right now: what would you recommend? It doesn't really make sense to teach Sit whenever a car approaches from either direction. We will keep her walking in town on sidewalks for further desensitizing, but Heel by itself is not cutting it right now.

 

What can I do better?

 

Beki

[KrisK]

Hi Beki,

 

Try doing a search in the forum about herding cars - it is a topic that comes up a lot with BC's

[MrSnappy]

Well, not to nitpick, but just as your dog was not herding the cats, nor is she "herding" cars. She is chasing cars, and it's a nasty bad habit. As with cat chasing, car chasing is one of those things I get all up in the dog's face about - maybe more so, because it's hella dangerous. A cat *may* have a chance against a dog. A dog has NO chance against a car.

 

I had a car chaser. I worked tirelessly with a clicker, a Gentle Leader, sit-and-waits ... in the end, I lost it on him. I flipped him over and sat on him and basically told him, LOUDLY, how many gross ways I would dismember him if he so much as looked at another passing car in his lifetime. When I let him up, a car went past and he glanced at, looked at me (and I probably had horns and a pitchfork, I was so upset) then he studiously studied the sky. He has not in 6 years so much as acknowledged a vehicle again.

 

I sometimes think extremely bad habits call for extreme measures. I have since broken several fosters of car chasing with a similar method, but it's all about timing. The nanosecond they start to show interest in an oncoming car I've leash corrected them right off their feet and made the 'leave-it' command about a thousand times more attractive than car chasing. I don't recommend this to everyone and I do expect to be reprimanded for being harsh on the dogs. But a few years ago while driving back from working stock, a friend of mine and I had the misfortune to witness a rottweiler get run over by a truck on the highway - we were in the process of running down the highway trying to get close to her and stop her, but we were just too far away - and dear god in heaven I have never seen anything quite so horrible in my lifetime. And I will argue that a harsh correction versus death is not as tough a competition as it may sound.

 

None of the dogs I have broken of this habit have gone on to chase cars ever again. A dog that I did not foster, who did not get the same schooling, went on to be hit and killed by a train that he was chasing. RIP Max.

 

An important thing to remember though is that just because your dog is a herding breed, does mean that whenever she engages in a bad habit she is "herding." LOTS of dogs chase cars. And cats. It has nothing to do with herding whatsoever. I caution this because too many border collie newbies excuse away their dogs' bad habits with 'herding behaviour' - this is not to suggest you're doing this, I'm just saying that it's just really inaccurate.

 

RDM

[Samantha J]

I use a Halti Harness with Holly, she walks well now (most of time) but when younger was a little devil out and about. She was so excited about everything she wouldn't listen. Anyway the harness helped, put me more in control when she got a little biggar too. I always discouraged the pulling and kept on with the training like stopping when she pulled and either walking the other direction or waiting for to come back then off we went again etc.

It took a while but it does work. I also found it useful to take a toy sometimes, like a tuggy and every now and then let her have a little play then after a few minutes i would say that's enough now, off we go or similar and put the toy away. Maybe that was just me it worked for sometimes but it did help with the excitable moments and made me the fun one for her to be with rather than what was going on in front.

 

Car chasing, yes she had a few goes at that and joggers/cyclists. What we did was teach the leave command and use leave for the joggers etc whilst she was in a sit position then treat when they passed. For the cars i would be constantly watching her and just as she was about to lunge or bark i would yelp or sort of shout (not too loud though so the whole street hears me. lol) a *NO* and that worked for her. Again it took a while but now she takes no notice of joggers/cyclists which helps as the park/water land we let her walk round with us off lead has a few of each and she just ignores them now.

Cars again she ignores mostly everyone unless it's wet and perhaps a big lorry but again i watch and catch her before she lunges. Although now it is nothing like what she did as a puppy. She really doesn't take much notice at all now of traffic so it does get better.

 

Hope it helps, just a few things i did with Holly

[IronHorse]

RDM,

Get ready for this,,,,drum roll please,,,,,,,I absolutely 110% agree with you on this matter.

 

I believe it is the quickest and most effective method to break a dog of such behavior.

Its all about pouncing on them in that nanosecond when you see them start to show the least any sign of interest in a vehicle.

[OurBoys]

RDM,

Get ready for this,,,,drum roll please,,,,,,,I absolutely 110% agree with you on this matter.

 

I believe it is the quickest and most effective method to break a dog of such behavior.

Its all about pouncing on them in that nanosecond when you see them start to show the least any sign of interest in a vehicle.

 

Same here, RDM.

 

Car chasing is a life threatening 'habit' for a dog to get into that, IMO, needs to be stopped asap with any way that works.

[PSmitty]

Can't say it better than that, RDM.

[Kayleegator]

I bow to the wisdom and experience here. I WILL get in my dog's face about this, and now. I am not a wuss afraid to hurt her feelings: if what it takes is a 'Come to Jesus' to shock her out of this, I can and will deliver it. 'Leave It' is part of this week's Puppy Class homework, and will be applied to cars, as well as treats, or whatever.

 

RDM, you have my sympathies for the horror you had to witness, as the poor Rottie was crushed, just out of reach. I have seen dogs hit by cars several times in my life, and certainly never, ever want to see that again, especially with my own dog.

 

I'll also run a search and read up, on the Halti-Harness, as well as the Herding Cars topic.

 

Thank you all! My confidence is building: with your help, I'm gonna raise a good dog.

 

 

Beki

 

(who will eventually figure out what 'herding' is: maybe I need to be put by myself in a sheep pen)

[vickim]

My first dog, a burly St Barnard/Husky mix, would only chase one vehicle: the vet's truck. Any other vehicle should could care less about. Yet every time the vet drove by (I lived in a rural area and the large-animal vet did make house calls) she would let out one woof and take off. She didn't go more than 100 yards or so down the road, but she meant business.

 

Whisper only offers to chase UPS trucks. I let out one loud bellow once the second she lowered herself into a crouch to chase and she stopped on the dime and gave me a terror-stricken look. She hasn't offered to chase since then.

 

I saw a dog hit by a car when I was first learning to drive. I'd been caught in the middle of a National Guard convoy and the truck behind me was right on my bumper. My mother was nervous about being in the middle of all those trucks, therefore I was nervous, too. As we were passing one farmhouse, a very nice Golden Retriever dashed out into the road and a car coming in the other direction hit it. It was most definitely killed instantly. I am sorry that the dog died, but I am so glad that is wasn't me who hit it.

[Lenajo]

"Leave it" implies the dog may one day...sometime...get to thave the "cookie" you are asking him to leave alone. Fine for cookies, not for cars.

 

Do the dog a favor and come down on her like a ton of bricks about the car chasing. Put some muscle in it and make it happen - no crouching, no dragging.

 

If you need incentive, _pretend_ she didn't have the leash when this happens. How serious would you be if the *only* thing between her and certain death under a car would you be then? I bet you could take her out with your voice alone if that was the case.

 

A halti is nice for train, but innappropriate for a leash corrections - it wreches the head around too much.

[RaisingRiver]

The way leave it is also taught is that the dog never gets the leave it. The dog is treated with something different, not the actual leave it item (which is often a treat to start with). This way the dog is never ever allowed to touch the leave it. It also helps with association.

 

Leave the cookie on the floor, but have the cookie in my hand. Leave the truck but also leave the geo and the SUV and the minivan, but do get in my car.

[juliepoudrier]

Well, not to nitpick, but just as your dog was not herding the cats, nor is she "herding" cars. She is chasing cars, and it's a nasty bad habit. RDM

Thank you, RDM, for pointing out this fact (it's not herding, it's chasing) yet again.

 

J.

[Ruger's Dad]

I never let Ruger even get the thought in his head to chase a car. If he had ever shown any interest in a car, bike, jogger, or anything moving I would give him a quick jerk and break his train of thought. If you can't trust them on a leash you can't trust them off a leash.

 

Ruger still pulls. I use a pinch collar which really helps. I used to get so mad at him. I really think he is having so much fun he just wants to go. When I walk I always have two dogs. Our Springer is a pure joy to walk. She NEVER pulls.

 

Our local pet smart trainer has 5 Border Collies. I asked her one day if her dogs pulled. She admitted they do and she uses the pinch collars as well. I didn't feel so bad after that.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

I do expect to be reprimanded for being harsh on the dogs.

 

Cars are pretty harsh on dogs too.

 

That was the best post I've seen in a long time on reactivity. For a normal dog "Come to Jesus" is my preferred approach for inappropriate behaviors of this type. I've seen dogs progress from simple reactions to crippling obsessions in a frighteningly short time. Nipping it in the bud is the only way that makes me feel confident that the dog doesn't "go there" in his brain any more.

[Kayleegator]

This evening my husband and I went out for dinner with some friends. Kaylee spent the time in her crate in the car. Before the party was over, I went out to check on her and took her for a stroll down the street. This is a busier place than where we live, and it was a holiday evening with a lot of folks in town.

 

Pup was pulling on the leash, of course, and trying to take in all the information. She still needs a lot of leash work.

 

But I had a proud, sweet moment, when we stopped at an intersection, where a police car with flashing lights was directing traffic through the red light. It seems there was a Cool Mountain Nights car rally in town, and they all went parading by. Some had super-loud mufflers and mutated engines, some had huge tires or fancy paint jobs, and in the mix were some Harleys as well. My little pup sat beside me in a brave and perfect Sit, watching but not freaking, until it was time to move on.

 

She's doing good.

[OurBoys]

Good girl, Kaylee!!