Carson Crazies Posted March 9, 2007 Report Share Posted March 9, 2007 In skyroscoe's defence, everyone starts off somewhere. The breeder where you got your pup asked these same questions before. Um, not necessarily. I don't think we can assume that the breeder of this pup *did* ask these same questions. There are far too many people who breed that don't bother to ask any questions. [*]Dog and bitch must be ABCA, ABCIA, or AKC registered (did I get the second one right?). I prefer the parent clubs, but AKC is a must for dogs who may have a future in tracking and competitve obedience I whole-heartedly disagree. IMO, Border Collies should NOT be registered with the AKC. If you will read the "read this first" section of this board you will see that this board as a whole disagrees with registration with *any* registry that makes breeding selections based on conformation, and offers conformation championships. Border Collies (as we've stated over and over in this thread and many like it) should be bred based on proven livestock working ability and not conformation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carson Crazies Posted March 9, 2007 Report Share Posted March 9, 2007 For any who may have missed this, Please, Read THIS . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
painted_ponies Posted March 9, 2007 Report Share Posted March 9, 2007 OK, not even going there with the AKC deal - Laura's beat me to it and said it well and I'm sure lots of others will add their comments. I am going to argue with the notion that, as long as you already have homes for the pups, you're not adding to the overpopulation problem. For one thing, the fact that there are, right this minute on petfinder, 4272 BCs or BC mixes looking for homes means that no one needs to breed just to make more BCs. We have plenty. For another, you can put in all the spay/neuter clauses you want in a contract but have you ever tried enforcing one? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShoresDog Posted March 9, 2007 Report Share Posted March 9, 2007 All the things you love about border collies come from their history of being selectively bred to excel at the complex task of herding. Here's my proposal. Don't breed your dog now. Get involved with herding. Daisy & I are learning, and it's way lots of fun and also way, way, way, way harder than learning to be good at frisbee (which dear, spayed Daisy is). If your dog turns out to be really, really good, and can prove it through winning ISDS trials or through work -- and there are lots of people on this board who can tell you what the criteria are, not little novice me -- THEN, and only then, consider if you want to breed him. If you do this, you'll meet and see awesome dogs and awesome owners, and you'll get a sense of what the standard needs to be. OK?? Let us know how this works out in four or five years! And, btw, hey board! You all rock! Painted_Ponies's response was perfect. Just absolutely perfect, picture and all. Faith is beautiful, and it's painful to face up to the sad fact that she, her littermates, and lots and lots of other wonderful puppies are just plain unwanted surplus and will die early because of irresponsible breeders. And those first responses, especially the little guy just watching and eating his popcorn, absolutely cracked me up! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyrasmom Posted March 10, 2007 Report Share Posted March 10, 2007 In skyroscoe's defence, everyone starts off somewhere. The breeder where you got your pup asked these same questions before. I think there is nothing wrong with breeding, as long as it is done responsibly. Heres my view on it: Dog must be registered as an OFA or PennHip dog Bitch must be registered with OFA or PennHip Dog (bitch can be preferential on this) SHOULD be CERF'd. There is too much a risk with progressive eye atrophy (PRA) and collie eye anomaly (CEA) Dog and bitch must be ABCA, ABCIA, or AKC registered (did I get the second one right?). I prefer the parent clubs, but AKC is a must for dogs who may have a future in tracking and competitve obedience Dog AND AND AND AND btich MUST be tested for brucellosis Here's a checklist 1. you alresdy have homes already for all pups when born 2. you have found a dog that meets all the points in the section above relating to the requirements of the bitch 3. you are prepared to offer a lifetime guarantee (or at least two years) for the health of the pups 4. if, during the lifetime of the pups, any need to be returned for whatever reason, you take that pup (now adult dog) back and find a home for him/her. 5. all non-show quality pups are sold with a spay/neuter agreement 6. all prospective buyers have been fully screened by you 7. you are going to offer support and advice to your puppy buyers for the life of the pup 8. you have the money to cover a stud fee, possible c-section and complications, vaccinations, and still get no income from the sale of any pups. 9. have you consented with the breeder of your bitch/dog and sought their advice? If you seriously want to breed, get some books. I think these are some very valid qualities for a breeder but what I don't see is what exactly does the breeding of said dogs add to the gene pool of the breed? All the responsible breeding in the world will not compensate for dogs being bred simply because "they can". There needs to be more than that because too many really wonderful dogs are sitting in shelters simply because dogs were bred, sometimes with the best of intentions. Being adorable (and healthy and from a responsible breeder) is just simply not enough to warrant bringing more lives into this world while others perish in cages. Maria Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted March 10, 2007 Report Share Posted March 10, 2007 My response to the post below: Contrary to what some may think, just having a bunch of tests on both dogs and having homes lined up for the pups does not make the breeding a good one. Interesting that in neither checklist is there any requirement that the dog be good at anything, much less that it be at the very minimum a capable worker. You can meet all the criteria below and still produce nothing but useless dogs--not something to brag about in a breeding program (i.e., not pups you can point to and proudly say, I produced something that actually helps better the breed). And using competition as an excuse for registering with AKC is just lame. I'll say it again: J. In skyroscoe's defence, everyone starts off somewhere. The breeder where you got your pup asked these same questions before. I think there is nothing wrong with breeding, as long as it is done responsibly. Heres my view on it: Dog must be registered as an OFA or PennHip dog Bitch must be registered with OFA or PennHip Dog (bitch can be preferential on this) SHOULD be CERF'd. There is too much a risk with progressive eye atrophy (PRA) and collie eye anomaly (CEA) Dog and bitch must be ABCA, ABCIA, or AKC registered (did I get the second one right?). I prefer the parent clubs, but AKC is a must for dogs who may have a future in tracking and competitve obedience Dog AND AND AND AND btich MUST be tested for brucellosis Here's a checklist 1. you alresdy have homes already for all pups when born 2. you have found a dog that meets all the points in the section above relating to the requirements of the bitch 3. you are prepared to offer a lifetime guarantee (or at least two years) for the health of the pups 4. if, during the lifetime of the pups, any need to be returned for whatever reason, you take that pup (now adult dog) back and find a home for him/her. 5. all non-show quality pups are sold with a spay/neuter agreement 6. all prospective buyers have been fully screened by you 7. you are going to offer support and advice to your puppy buyers for the life of the pup 8. you have the money to cover a stud fee, possible c-section and complications, vaccinations, and still get no income from the sale of any pups. 9. have you consented with the breeder of your bitch/dog and sought their advice? If you seriously want to breed, get some books. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kat's Dogs Posted March 10, 2007 Report Share Posted March 10, 2007 Oh. Boy. I am not going to say anything really here but that I agree with everything everyone is telling you. This is going to go on for pages.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebecca, Irena Farm Posted March 10, 2007 Report Share Posted March 10, 2007 Yup. The first goal of a responsible breeder is to produce dogs that live up to the overall standards of the breed. In Border Collies, that's one thing and one thing only - a high level of aptitude working livestock. Nothing else matters - that standard holds the whole dog together and without it this breed falls apart with alarming speed. It doesn't just become ordinary, it becomes less than ordinary. Dull-eyed, plush-coated, clumsy, snappish tempered dogs with really nice hips and eyes. Yes, it's important that the dogs be sound and healthy, but that's secondary to knowing whether the aptitude is there. I've gotten outstanding dogs from breeders who never did a single test (other than CERF at the Finals), and even bred unregistered dogs. But I've never seen an outstanding working dog from a program that would list health tests and registration as numbers 1 through 5 as signs of a breeder that is doing right by the breed. The second list is all very nice, but again, the main thing is that you have the end in view of producing superior livestock working dogs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
haleigh Posted March 10, 2007 Report Share Posted March 10, 2007 I wholeheartedly disagree with everything AKC for border collies, but I am only getting Joy an ILP for things that I wouldn't be able to do with out one, like rally-o and tracking. I've always wanted a dog to do this, but I would never personally breed with AKC registered dogs, or purchase a dog from an AKC breeding. This is why I got Joy from a breeder who only herds, and completely HATES conformation. I wanted to do conformation with her, but after doing more looking into it, I decided not to, even though she has a perfect "standard" These I think are all suggestions on that checklist. I only put down the important things, that breeders make sure is done. I didn't want to put anything down that you guys covered. I'm sorry, but I'm feeling slightly offended by some of posts. Also, who says frisbee isn't a "job"? To me, a job is anything that the dog has to work for. Sitting before getting meals can be a job, agility can be a job, frisbee can be a job, and you can selectively breed for those, except sitting before meals You can breed for very good hips for agility and frisbee. You can breed for very good herding ability. I don't think that a border collie HAS to be tried on sheep, and compete in herding to make a good breeder. It can sure help you out a ton, but different breeders like to breed for different things. I didn't get Joy with herding in mind, so would that make me a bad owner? I'm certainly changing my views, and would certainly love to up to the breeders farm once a month to *attempt* to work Joy on sheep for a monthly outlet. How should breeders differ? OK, well I know the answer, but still. I would do breedings with matchups. If your boy is strong on herding, pick a bitch thats strong on herding. If the bitch has weak ankles, along with your boy, reject that bitch. If she excellent hips and your boy has good hips, then you can accept her. The only thing I would put a lot of emphasis on is total health, outcome of the CERF and OFA test, and herding ability (i know, very contradictory). Even though it completely contradicts the above ^^^, I was just trying to make a point. I do believe that only dogs who exhibit herding behaviors and who are decent at herding should be bred to enrich the gene pool. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
haleigh Posted March 10, 2007 Report Share Posted March 10, 2007 oh an my bad.....I put show quality on the list, I meant to put working quality will fix now Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyrasmom Posted March 10, 2007 Report Share Posted March 10, 2007 So, if the Border Collie doesn't necessarily need to be tried on sheep to be a good breeder....why a Border Collie at all? The very essence of the Border Collie is its ability to work sheep. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for responsible breeding, health checks, and I have conformation bred Border Collies whom I adore, but I've learned that what is so great about the Border Collie is a dirivitive of its working ability. If you don't include that in the gene pool, then you've not bred for what makes a Border Collie great and you've not added anything essential to the gene pool. Any dog can play frisbee. I really don't see why dogs should be bred with a frisbee in mind. Maria Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
haleigh Posted March 10, 2007 Report Share Posted March 10, 2007 Even though it completely contradicts the above ^^^, I was just trying to make a point. I do believe that only dogs who exhibit herding behaviors and who are decent at herding should be bred to enrich the gene pool. Again...I posted that at the end of my post. Now these are just my beliefs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nancy Posted March 10, 2007 Report Share Posted March 10, 2007 Haleigh wrote: I don't think that a border collie HAS to be tried on sheep, and compete in herding to make a good breeder. It can sure help you out a ton, but different breeders like to breed for different things. I didn't get Joy with herding in mind, so would that make me a bad owner? Well, I guess if it's intact and can produce puppies it could be defined as "a good breeder"? But is it worth breeding? Will it improve the breed - as what it is supposed to be? Of course, people breed border collies for reasons other than herding. But those are bad reasons. Because they ignore what makes a border collie a border collie. No, you are not a bad owner because you got Joy for reasons other than herding. Lots of us have dogs that don't herd. But I'm actually glad to find out that Fergie is significantly less than interested in herding - other than to insist all waterfowl be in the water. Because that shows me that she and are are a good match. What would make you a bad owner would be breeding Joy for reasons other than herding - and that she showed exceptional talent at herding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted March 10, 2007 Report Share Posted March 10, 2007 I wholeheartedly disagree with everything AKC for border collies, but I am only getting Joy an ILP for things that I wouldn't be able to do with out one, like rally-o and tracking. You can DO any of these dog activities with your dog without involvement with AKC - you just can't COMPETE and get TITLES without AKC (unless any other organization offers the competition and titles you are interested in). It's your choice to ILP and compete and gain titles but it's NOT a requirement to be involved with AKC in order to train and enjoy these pursuits with your dog. I'm sorry, but I'm feeling slightly offended by some of posts. Also, who says frisbee isn't a "job"? To me, a job is anything that the dog has to work for. Sitting before getting meals can be a job, agility can be a job, frisbee can be a job, and you can selectively breed for those, except sitting before meals Sorry about your getting offended because folks didn't agree with your opinions. Don't take it personally but WORK for a Border Collie is stock work. A dog may also have a JOB doing SAR, service dog, etc. Frisbee and other sports pursuits are not jobs (even if they are what your dog DOES, and require training and exertion) any more than your recreational pursuits are your job. They are fun activities in spite of involving time, effort, and preparation. I don't think that a border collie HAS to be tried on sheep, and compete in herding to make a good breeder. It can sure help you out a ton, but different breeders like to breed for different things. Then you seem to be missing the whole point of what responsible breeding for Border Collies is - breeding with working abilities in mind (and that includes instinct, focus, soundness, health, etc.). If a Border Collie is not proven in any way on stock (farm/ranch work and/or trialing, but preferably a combination), then it's not been proven worthy of breeding and contributing to the breed. Breeding for ANYTHING else is just making puppies (as much as any of us love our less-stellar-bred pups/dogs) without regards for the benefit and future of the breed. I didn't get Joy with herding in mind, so would that make me a bad owner? Absolutely NOT! Buy a pup from a responsible breeder and give it a great life (with or without stock), and you are a good owner. I can't say how many times that has been reiterated on these boards. I do believe that only dogs who exhibit herding behaviors and who are decent at herding should be bred to enrich the gene pool. Dogs that are only "decent" aren't worth breeding. For the sake of the breed and its future, smart breeding of outstanding dog/bitch pairs that can really contribute to the maintenance and improvement of the breed should be the norm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pax Posted March 10, 2007 Report Share Posted March 10, 2007 I think sometimes we get a little caught up in terminology and trip over each other. I think it would be good, in these conversations, to make sure we point out there is a difference between an instinctual drive to DO THE WORK, and an ability, however great, at agility, which is worthy of respect in it's own right but is NOT the purpose driven need in a working collie. Someone's Lab migh be a fabulous obedience dog, but it was not what he was bred to BE. If you're going to perpetuate a breed, perpetuate for what it needs and loves and thrives on doing, not for what one incidental dog happens to exhibit a talent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kat's Dogs Posted March 10, 2007 Report Share Posted March 10, 2007 Thought this might help - I am NOT getting involved in this thread but to give info on this one topic: Sports you can do WITHOUT the AKC (every single sport). Listing the Organizations and their webpages, all these allow all breeds/mixes and offer titles: Agility North American Dog Agility Council (NADAC) ----------- www.nadac.com United States Dog Agility Association (USDAA ------ www.usdaa.com Canine Performance Events (CPE) ---------- www.k9cpe.com Australian Shepherd Club of America (ASCA) ----------- www.asca.org Teacup Dog Agility Association (TDAA) ------------ www.k9tdaa.com Dogs On Course in North America (DOCNA) ------------- www.docna.com Competition Obedience Mixed Breed Dog Club of America (MBDCA) ---------------members.tripod.com/mbdca American Mixed Breed Obedience Registration (AMBOR) ------ no website Conformation (yes, show dogs) Mixed Breed Dog Club of America (MBDCA) -------------- members.tripod.com/mbdca Disc Dogs you already know isn't even offered by the AKC, but lots of others Dock Dogs Dock Dogs ----------- www.dockdogs.com Flyball North American Flyball Association (NAFA) --------------- www.flyball.org Canine Freestyle World of Canine Freestyle Organization (WCFO)----------------- www.worldcaninefreestyle.org Canine Freestyle Federation (CFF) ---------------- www.canine-freestyle.org Lure Coursing Mixed Breed Dog Club of America (MBDCA) ---------------- members.tripod.com/mbdca Rally Obedience Mixed Breed Dog Club of America (MBDCA) ------------ members.tripod.com/mbdca American Mixed Breed Obedience Registration (AMBOR) --------- no website Association of Pet Dog Trainers (APDT) ---------------- www.apdt.com Tracking Mixed Breed Dog Club of America (MBDCA) ----------------- members.tripod.com/mbdca The mixed breed dog club of America is designed to offer the same things as the AKC but for ALL dogs (even purebreds). So you can get all the same cool titles or whatever and they have all the same rules - but they are not the AKC. The reason to get an ILP "because I want to compete" as I have shown here, is NO reason. There are even MORE that I have not listed here. Hope this cleared that up. ETA: STILL, even if you dog has the highest titles in every one of these organizations - you shouldn't breed your dog unless they are GREAT at stockwork. And I still agree with everything almost everyone is saying about "ONLY BREED FOR HERDING ABILITY" . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Watch Debatable Posted March 10, 2007 Report Share Posted March 10, 2007 Questions and debate are the best way to learn. It's clear Haleigh is thinking about the issues raised in this thread and is willing to listen to the words of some of the most knowledgeable border collie people in the country. Trust me --- many of the thirteen year olds I know are not nearly as thoughtful, or as reasonable (Most don't write as well, either...) Just a couple comments: 1) Don't feel like a bad owner if you don't work your dog on livestock. The best, and I do mean the best stockpeople will tell you that a good pet home can be ideal for a border collie. Your dog doesn't have to work stock to be happy and content. By all means participate in agility, obedience, etc. 2) The border collies's athleticism, intelligence, heart, drive and trainability are a direct result of breeding for the most demanding type of stockwork. This is why the breed is the best at all other dog activities. Obedience, frisbee, agility and the like are hopelessly, eye-rollingly easy activities for a working border collie. Fun --- but easy. (So easy that there's a saying: "Training them is cheating" ) Breed for these simple pastimes, and all the border collie's finest characteristics will be diminished and eventually lost. In a few generations you'll be left with a dog not much different --- in terms of brains, athleticism, drive and so forth --- from your neighbor's friendly lab mix. ILP with the Evil Empire if you must but please don't think of dumbing down this remarkable dog by breeding for anything less than outstanding working ability. And once again, you are not a bad owner: "If you love your border collie, and give him/her a good home, you are doing right by your dog." [from READ THIS FIRST.] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebecca, Irena Farm Posted March 11, 2007 Report Share Posted March 11, 2007 Disc dogs: list of organizations at the bottom of this article - not a one Kennel Club affiliated. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disc_dog Flyball: United Flyball League International http://www.u-fli.com Competitive Obedience: United Kennel Club http://www.ukcdogs.com/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fosher Posted March 11, 2007 Report Share Posted March 11, 2007 Haliegh, Your checklist of breeding qualifications is missing the one that matters the most: proven ability to work livestock. It would concern me not at all if a dog wasn't registered with the OFA if I saw him working sheep all day on rough ground and coming home looking for more. If I could see some X-rays of his hips, that'd be nice, but I really don't care what a radiologist's opinion of the films is. Ditto for PENNHip. Likewise CERF. PRA has not been an issue in Border collies since the advent of more nutritious foods, and CEA geneotype can be determined without CERF. I think others have covered the bit about registered with AKC, but I'd also say that I would certainly consider an unregistered litter if it had what I was looking for. I have no idea what you mean by "working-quality" puppies. There's no way to tell whether a dog is "working quality" until he's pretty mature. I have one very useful sheepdog who was afraid of sheep until he was 14 months old. The lists you've provided might be good ones for breeding golden retrievers or some other breed that's primarily a companion, but for Border collies they're so far off the mark that they're not even wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debbie Crowder-BaaramuLuke Posted March 11, 2007 Report Share Posted March 11, 2007 I never realized how touchy a subject this is, and to me, the Border Collie is THE perfect example of truly selective breeding for a dog capable of performing what he was intended for. As I held onto a delightful looking female chihuahua, fully muzzled and fighting every tiny snip of her delicate little toenails, I grew almost enraged at my co-worker's question "do we know of any intact male chihuahuas? This one's owner is looking for a male to mate her to". Great, a companion animal that weighs all of three pounds and needs a muzzle to groom, looking to create more of her kind. These folks didn't even care that she's got temperment issues, and that her knees are lax, she's a female, they paid for her, they love her and they think she ought to be bred. The only other male we came up with in our memory banks also has temperment issues, albeit they do get that way in the hospital for the vaccines and stuff we have to do with them. I know how people think of their dogs, and if I breed one of mine (IF), he/she better be a useful dog on stock and more than me ought to think that. Given that, I probably still will have to defer to the breeders who I truly respect, and seek to get a pup from them when I need one. Sport people will always be able to select from that pool as well, as most of the pups produced probably won't make the work force, or even trial prospects. I gotta say I enjoyed the "heads up" posts. I think everyone handled it really well this time, no ugly fights. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dixie_Girl Posted March 11, 2007 Report Share Posted March 11, 2007 Jackson has EVERY trait you could want in a stockdog/working BC. Friendly, fearless, no phobias(except the can of coins) totally non-aggresive to other animals, no guarding issues. FAST! Atheletic. He's purty. Kids can do anything with him, no matter how small. Very smart. Excellent problem solver. Oh, I said EVERY trait. I meant every trait but ONE. He isn't proven to me or anyone else, he can make a difference through his pups to continue making great stockdogs/working dogs. We are re-doing our beg-nov trial next weekend. He's two. Now if I had sheep right now, he would be a help. But, well, mediocre BCs are really in abundance. I want him to do an open trial and have people say, WOW! That boy's amazing! I would not breed him otherwise. And then it would ONLY be if a very knowledgable stock person came up and said they had a female they thought would be perfect matched to Jackson. Cuz really, it isn't JUST throwing two remarkable working dogs together. They have to be ablel to compliment each other on working style, ability, etc. And I gotta leave that to the experts till I are one! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
narcodog Posted March 11, 2007 Report Share Posted March 11, 2007 Sue R wrote: "Then you seem to be missing the whole point of what responsible breeding for Border Collies is - breeding with working abilities in mind (and that includes instinct, focus, soundness, health, etc.). If a Border Collie is not proven in any way on stock (farm/ranch work and/or trialing, but preferably a combination), then it's not been proven worthy of breeding and contributing to the breed. Breeding for ANYTHING else is just making puppies (as much as any of us love our less-stellar-bred pups/dogs) without regards for the benefit and future of the breed. " "Sorry about your getting offended because folks didn't agree with your opinions. Don't take it personally but WORK for a Border Collie is stock work. A dog may also have a JOB doing SAR, service dog, etc. Frisbee and other sports pursuits are not jobs (even if they are what your dog DOES, and require training and exertion) any more than your recreational pursuits are your job. They are fun activities in spite of involving time, effort, and preparation. " SAR is WORK. Narcotics detection is WORK. Explosives detection is WORK. These are all jobs that require certain traits that are found in BCs and some other breeds. Not just any dog can do these jobs. They are all WORK though! A JOB involves WORK. BCs are capable of so much more than herding stock and breeding them based solely for herding is a true disservice to the breed and the people they help. Fiona doesn't do stock herding because we don't have the time. The people she has been responsible for putting in jail and the parents of missing children she has found would probably not agree that her JOB is not just something she DOES. I agree wholeheartedly that breeding should be very selective. I do not agree that the only work a BC should be bred for is stock work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrSnappy Posted March 11, 2007 Report Share Posted March 11, 2007 SAR is WORK. Narcotics detection is WORK. Explosives detection is WORK. These are all jobs that require certain traits that are found in BCs and some other breeds. Not just any dog can do these jobs. They are all WORK though! A JOB involves WORK. BCs are capable of so much more than herding stock and breeding them based solely for herding is a true disservice to the breed and the people they help. Fiona doesn't do stock herding because we don't have the time. The people she has been responsible for putting in jail and the parents of missing children she has found would probably not agree that her JOB is not just something she DOES. I agree wholeheartedly that breeding should be very selective. I do not agree that the only work a BC should be bred for is stock work. I'm not sure if you misunderstand what is being said here or if you believe that yu can breed SAR dogs from SAR dogs. One of Tweed's siblings is an SAR dog. Tweed could never be an SAR dog. They come of parents who worked stock. Ergo, dogs bred for stock work can be molded to do other things - or not. But breeding them for other things is the heart of the issue here. Are you suggesting that you can breed SAR into the offspring of dogs? I'm not sure I really understand your point, and I also feel like you misunderstand the point (where is Julie's head banging graphic?). Border collies are working stockdogs. The many traits they have that you love and that make them sometimes good at other things is because they were bred to work STOCK. All of the instincts and behavioural traits that go into the breed are there because of selective breeding for working (stock) ability. Is this really such a difficult concept to grasp? Yes, SAR is work. No, SAR work is not an instinctual, genetic behaviour. Working stock is. So choose your next SAR dog from a working-bred litter. I don't understand why this is such a hard concept for people. My dogs are not working stockdogs. If anything, one of them has marginal talent. My dogs play agility and frisbee and hold down the sofa and sometimes one of them goes out and does some little working tasks. Okay? But the breed itself should be bred for working ability. When you fail to breed for this, you breed away from it. Then the border collie becomes something else, and the things you love about the breed that make for, say, a good SAR dog - fail to appear in the breed and then it is no longer a good candidate for the various activities or JOBS you want it to. Get it?? RDM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fosher Posted March 11, 2007 Report Share Posted March 11, 2007 narcodog wrote: BCs are capable of so much more than herding stock and breeding them based solely for herding is a true disservice to the breed and the people they help. Horse hockey. It's because of the fact that they were bred for stock work that they can do what they do. To do otherwise would be the true disservice to the breed and the people they help. Including people like you. I think perhaps you're getting caught up in the distinction between the qualifications for breeding a pair, and the work that a puppy is ultimately trained to do. I don't know of anyone who thinks you can get SAR dogs by breeding two good SAR dogs. I'd consider this akin to much of the sport breeding that goes on -- just wishful thinking or pedigree-based wishful thinking. RDM has said it very well -- either you're missing the point or you're confused about what is meant by breeding for working ability. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted March 11, 2007 Report Share Posted March 11, 2007 Narcodog - Nobody here would ever denigrate the importance of SAR, service, drug-detection, etc. Please don't think I was minimizing those very important JOBS a qualified and capable dog can do. With regards to Border Collies, "the work" is stockwork. And, perhaps, instead of using "WORK" I should have been more specific to say "THE WORK". Breeding for what "the work" requires is what has made the breed what it is and what it is capable of doing. Breeding for anything else will change the breed (observe the results of breeding for confomation or sports) and make it something less than it is. That is why I defined "work" as I did, a "job" as I did, and a "recreational pursuit" as I did. There was never any intent to relegate a real JOB a dog (Border Collie or otherwise) does, or the effort, training, etc., that it takes to do it. I said that "sports pursuits are not jobs (even if they are what your dog DOES)". I have the greatest admiration for what handlers like you and dogs like yours do for the rest of us, the training, the dangers, the selflessness, the dedication. Thank you (and your wonderful dog) for all that you do! I am sorry if my post offended you because it wasn't meant to do so, but I stand by it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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