CKC and Border Collie recognition

[KrisK]

Well, I tried to register my vote against the Border Collie recognition. However, either their website isn't working right, or they are going to make it such an annoying task that no one will vote! After calling CKC and spending 10 minutes on the phone telling them I could not vote, I got disconnected! and it's not a toll free call either!

I guess I'll try again later.

[Eileen Stein]

Did you ever get through to vote?

[KrisK]

No, I tried again last night, and again this morning. So I've sent them an email this morning telling them about my experience. So far, no reply! The poll is supposed to last until April 15th so I do have time but what a pain in the proverbial you know where!

[KrisK]

I finally got to vote...NO. Here's hoping that there will be a lot of NO votes

[Brildwn]

Someone mentioned that there is an online poll with 600 signatures of Border Collie people against recognition. BUT I personally know of several people who have voted in this poll who do not even have a Border Collie!!! I also know several who have voted who have breeds such as GSD's and Collies that they SHOW. So It's is not much different from the CKC's poll except you don't have to pay the $50 dollars to be a member

 

I know someone from down my way who actually has the nerve to e-mail me consistently telling me that the Border Collie shouldn't be in the CKC, YET they have a BIS winning GSD and a show Collie sitting in their house. If they really cared they would stop showing all of their dogs in CKC events!

 

I am also really, truly sick of hearing working people blaming the OZ BC's for bringing in all the health problems. I hate to break it to you folks, but the OZ dogs are from the EXACT same dogs that your dogs originated from. It is also a well known fact that it was Wiston Cap (ISDS 3154), A WORKING BORDER COLLIE MIGHT I ADD, that brought epilepsy and CEA into the breed. He's behind almost all the BC's of today. There are quite a few working BC's in my area with hip problems, but their breeders who reg. with the CBCA don't hip test or do any testing at all.

 

As for TNS it is very rare and hard to recognize, many of you would never even realize that it was in your lines as the pup could fade at a few days old, and you would never know it even had it or that it was even in your lines. But of course you refuse to test for it because working BC's don't have it, I'm not sure how you would figure that

without testing.

 

On another note....WHY DO THE CBCA MEMBERS EVEN CARE IF THE CKC ALLOWS US TO COMPETE IN THEIR EVENTS???

 

*Non of you have to join in, your pups are all on contracts saying that they can't be shown in conformation, you don't need to participate in any of the events if you don't want to.

 

*You can have a contract saying that any dog you sell cannot be bred to anything that was ever shown if you so decide (silly as that is).

 

*Your not being forced to compete under the CKC and your lines will not include OZ BC's if you don't want them to. It's up to the breeder!

 

* The only difference would be that people who wanted to compete in these events would have the option to do so. Is that so bad? Nobody will be changing the Border Collies that you are breeding. Anyone interested in conformation will probably have a OZ BC anyway. They aren't changing your lines. They will be showing a dog that is already from OZ lines.

 

All of you can continue to go about your way as you have been in the past, were not trying to take over the breed. We just want to participate in CKC events and if one of them happens to be conformation then so be it. It will be rare to see one of your working line bred dogs in the ring anyway. What are you worrying about?? Were not changing anything that hasn't already been changed. I believe that the changes were for the better, but thats another story!

 

YES, you might loose puppy buyers who decide that they want a VERSATILE BORDER COLLIE (I can't stress this enough)instead of a pure working border collie. But that shouldn't matter because your not in

it for the money right???

 

Maybe you should spend that money that you are planning on using to sue the CKC on educating your members on health testing, as their is not ONE CBCA breeder in my area who health tests and when asked about it they have no clue what I am talking about, yet, they breed under the CBCA! The CBCA registers how many dogs a year? And how many actually work? How many registered dogs are bred who don't work???

 

The only events in my area are with the CKC...We just want to participate in CKC events, NOT steel the breed, or change what you have been breeding for. We should have the freedom to breed for the characteristics that we feel are important for the breed, without having all of you hounding over our shoulders and insulting our dogs.

 

I have been told that, the one Border Collie that I have that is AKC registered is not as "Border Collie" as my CBCA registered dogs, solely because of her breeding. I'm sorry, but she is a lot smarter and shows more instinct, and her daddy is a straight OZ import. I'll be damned if someone tells me that she is not a Border Collie. My others are CBCA reg. their mom is from a known WORKING Border Collie person there in Alberta. I have seen many so called (GOD FORBID) "Barbie Collies" who were excellent herding dogs.

 

Mind you, I have nothing against herding and hope to pursue it with my dogs some day, I have a trainer here who actually dosn't sneer at me when the seem my border collie isn't from all working lines.

 

I wouldn't give the CBCA 1 cent of my money. If they truly cared about the breed all dogs would be in the B pedigree category until they proved their working status. Currently, any dog who is out of working lines gets an automatic A pedigree and those who are not are B. Thats like saying if I'm Native I get an A pedigree even if I can't hunt but If I'm white I can only get an A pedigree if I can hunt. You have to be born into it to receive it, they should be judging all dogs on their own merits and not their pedigree. So if both my parents were models I'm automatically born one too...There is

something very wrong about that idea! JMHO

 

Kind Regards,

Lauren

Bellaclan Border Collies

[Lenajo]

Do you really expect to gain friends and influence people slinging mud? Mud without basis like blaming a single dog for epilepsy? Accusing working breeders of not noticing if puppies die?

 

Perhaps you need reminding, but from the wolf came both the Chihuahua and the Great Dane, and everything canine inbetween. Breed decisions have great merit in what dogs, and what breeds, result.

 

When people chose to breed a working breed for a different set of criteria than work they create a new breed. It makes no sense then, to go back crying to the wolf when you Chihuahuas have health problems the wolf didn't have.

 

We have Border Collies. The working version...the historical version...the true version. Those are the dogs that walked out of the sheep field into the agility ring, the obedience ring, flyball...etc and kicked butt.

 

You guys thought you make the "new and improved" version in the show ring. Your breeding choices resulted in some serious problems. Don't come stumbling home now wanting us all to see the same sky falling. Maybe you need to spay, neuter, think a while?

 

As for the CKC - good for everyone who sees the truth. Maybe the guy with the show collie and GSD don't want this breed as screwed up as his is irrepably now. Oh, yes I forgot...that was "breeders" who did that, not the show ring. Pardon me, but if you don't have the party....then you don't reward the bad decisions. Food for thought.

 

lenajo

[MrSnappy]

Hey Lauren,

 

Do you keep the drivel saved on your hard drive and post it everywhere? Reading it once on the Bark was one time too many for me.

 

Nice to know you've "got nothing against herding" by the way. Mind if I steal that? I'm putting a collection together of the funniest sentences ever written, and it's going somewhere near the top. Very amusing stuff!

 

RDM

[Brildwn]

Actually, it's called copy and paste And it makes things easier when you want to say the same thing to many groups of people.

 

If that plain old sentences amuses you enough to make you want to keep it and read it to yourself when you need a giggle, be my guest. Whatever floats your boat

 

Cheers,

Lauren

[MrSnappy]

Actually, it's called copy and paste And it makes things easier when you want to say the same thing to many groups of people.

 

Yes, sorry, I think the question I really was driving at there was "why would you want to post that drivel at all?"

 

But thanks. Just to clarify - did you have something "against herding" when your dogs worked 1000 head of cattle every day?

 

Oh wait, right, that was never true. My bad.

 

 

RDM

[Brildwn]

Comet worked 1000 head of cattle, i had nothing to do with his training a neighbor asked if he could train him up an use him, why would I protest?? I knew the guy. I'v never had anything against herding, all I meant was that I will never breed for solely conformation.

 

But Back to the poll!

[Guest CleverDog]

Wow, that pretty much came out of nowhere...I don't see in what way the original post deviation has much to do with being unable to vote in the CKC poll...

 

ETA: Maybe to tell us about the free poll? But that makes absolutely no sense -those votes don't count. Which I suppose is quite fine by the OP...I'm just having trouble seeing the correlation to the rant. But it sounds like everyone else is used to this, so I'll just keep on watching...

[MrSnappy]

I'v never had anything against herding, all I meant was that I will never breed for solely conformation.

 

So what else do you breed for then? Since we all know that agility and flyball are not breedable traits, what are you breeding for besides conformation?

 

RDM

[Brildwn]

I'm not here to talk about this...I'm here to talk about the poll etc. If you want to know visit my site and read up! E-mail me privately to keep from clogging up this thread.

[Katelynn & Gang]

Your site is a joke, just as your post is.

 

Glad to see you've learned how to spell though. Now if only you could learn what a real Border Collie is, we'd be set.

 

Katelynn

[Lenajo]

I tried to pull up the site, but my computer blocked it for "innapropriate content"

 

:toofunny:

 

It's BC Porn, I'm sure it is!

[Lenajo]

I can't even edit right I'm laughing so hard. Thanks "Brilliant" Dawn!

[Katelynn & Gang]

It's BC Porn, I'm sure it is!

 

lmao I guess that is as bad as conformation.

[Katelynn & Gang]

So if both my parents were models I'm automatically born one too...There is something very wrong about that idea!

 

I think you need to take a look at your own thoughts here and turn them about, taking a good long look at yourself and your own breeding goals.

 

If you cannot bred two "working" dogs together and automatically get "working" dogs HOW in the hell are you going to bred two "conformation" dogs together and automatically get "working" dogs!?!?!?!??! Now THERE IS indeed something VERY wong with THAT idea!

 

Katelynn

[Northof49]

As for the CKC - good for everyone who sees the truth. Maybe the guy with the show collie and GSD don't want this breed as screwed up as his is irrepably now. Oh, yes I forgot...that was "breeders" who did that, not the show ring. Pardon me, but if you don't have the party....then you don't reward the bad decisions. Food for thought.

 

Actually this person doesn't want the Border Collie back in CKC performance events as they claim they won't be able to get any first place ribbons and High in Trial in CKC Herding trials anymore. They posted this on another list I am on.

[KrisK]

I see that Brildwn's reading skills are no better than her writing skills since the poll she is referring to is actually a petition and there is no requirement to have a border collie to sign it. However, having read her incomprehensible posts on another forum, it is not worth my time to read it all again here.

[Rosanne]

Do any of you guys ever feel the need to go on a CKC/AKC show site and proclaim to them in a long wordy post how they are wrong in everything they do and that they've ruined the breed? Gosh, no matter what I feel, I've never felt the urge to do that. . . . because I know it would mean nothing to them.

 

Versatility is not a breeding goal. You can't form a breed around that. What traits could that possibly entail? Moderation of everything? (scratching head)

 

I hope you guys win out up there. I WISH the U.S. had such a law as the Pedigree Act, it would definitely curb the insane pet registries that have been popping up to register all the puppy mill puppies.

 

You are allowed to register a dog with a performance organization such as an agility-only organization though, correct? Like USDAA or NADAC? I'm just curious how the CKC performance stuff is considered different - is it because they are a pedigree/breed registering organization who just happens to hold events?

[airbear]

...You are allowed to register a dog with a performance organization such as an agility-only organization though, correct? Like USDAA or NADAC? I'm just curious how the CKC performance stuff is considered different - is it because they are a pedigree/breed registering organization who just happens to hold events?

No, the problem is that by admitting the border collie to the CKC (aside from the conflict with the APA) means that the border collie is eligible to compete in ALL events, including conformation. Further, the entire application procee to become a Miscellaneous Listed breed seems sketchy:

PROCEDURE RG004 -- Procedure for Recognition of New Breed

A. Adding a Breed to the Miscellaneous List

1. An application must be made in writing by one or more resident Canadian breeders or owners representing that breed. The application shall be accompanied by the following:

a) a written explanation of the level of interest in participation in Canadian Kennel Club events amongst the Canadian breeders and owners of the proposed listed breed including evidence of support of the application by those breeders and owners;"

The way this application was made is that a couple of obedience competitors filled out the requisite paperwork, asked the CBCA to support the application (CBCA indicated their opposition), affixed appropriate postage, and now the inclusion of the border collie in the show ring in Canada is being voted upon by the CKC members. A rather odd way to get things done, no?

 

ETA: Re: registering with performance orgs, I suspect in Canada the attitude is much like in the States: once the dog is on the ground, what you do with it (within reason) is up to you. My CBCA dog (and the other two paperless wonders) is "registered" with the USDAA, AAC, and NADAC. Oh, and NAFA.

[Katelynn & Gang]

I'm thinking that they are wanting their dogs in the CKC is to hike up prices.

 

I mean, after all, how many "pet" or uneducated buyers are going to pay $2,000.00 for a puppy from unproven parents (Well, they sure are pretty, don't you agree? lol Who cares if their proven or not?) with a "B" pedigree within their own country's only registry?

 

Working bred puppies with "A" pedigree sell for $400.00 - 500.00 so why are they asking more for "B" pedigree dogs when "A" is better then "B" to most people? If I was a pet buyer/uneducated buyer, that is what I'd be asking.

 

I also wish the US had the Pedigree Act but knowing the Border Collies luck, the AKC would rule over all breeds, including the Border Collie. Meaning no ABCA, NASDA or AIBC which would be a almost instant death to all the working ability the ISDS Border Collies passed on to our dogs.

 

Katelynn

[Rosanne]

I understand WHY you don't want the dogs in CKC, I was just wondering what the difference was between registering CKC for sports, and registering USDAA or AAC for sports. I suppose its a matter of the fact that CKC records pedigrees and professes itself as an endorser/decider of breeding decisions, while AAC for isntance, only governs agility trials.

 

I don't see how they can consider confirmation a performance event. Why not do like the AKC and allow an ILP type process so those particular (spayed/neutered) dogs could compete in Obedience to their hearts content. . .

 

I can see why current GSD-owning Obedience or Agility competitors would NOT be happy about this:-)

[border_collie_crazy]

preformance only venues dont govern breeds only sports, CKC governs breeds, because their Misc. class is allowed in conformation, then their needs to be a breed standard, therby setting a "claim" in the breed. venmues like NADAC and AAC and NAFA only govern sports, breed plays no part whatsoever.