fear aggression

[c robertson]

I'm sorry, that sentence just struck me as funny. I had done a ton of reading and felt that way before I got Dublin. BCs have that feeling knocked out of you in no time flat! It is a fun ride though...!

I am new to this site, not sure if I'm doing this right!

Anyway, I have a Border Collie, Chase. He will 1 year old on the 27th of this month. I had him since he was 8 wks old. He is the 2nd Border Collie that I got from a very reputalble breeder who has many Border Collies and breeds on working sheep farm. This one has a serious problem. Almost right from the start he showed signs of timidmess. I have done everything I have been told, we went to puppy classes. He did very well, but acted out against all the puppies. However, after about 10 min of class he settled down to work but acted out occasionally. He will not allow strangers to touch him. We than went to a professional Dog Trainer who deals with behavioral problems. She confirmed what I thought, his aggression is fear motivated. He was positively terrified of her because of her dominance, to the point he would show his teeth and nip whenever she tried to touch him. However, as he nipped at her, he would pull awayn not lunge toward her. Well I have done everything she told me. We walk at the local state park, in town etc. His obediance skills fly out the window when confronted with strangers and particularlly other dogs. He will lunge and bark and nearly trip me every time he sees a dog out walkingl. Yesterday, I came to tears, he actually bit a dog on the nose when they came over to him.(owner droppedthe leash)

My family are campers, we go camping frequently, campgrounds are full of people, dogs and children. I am at a loss, and am very hurt that I can not get him to socialize, or even get him under control enough to maintain some calm. My other 2 Border Colies have never showed any such personallity issues. Please help! I love Chase, at home, he is the most effectionate and loving B.C. I have owned and well behaved. He is not a bully. What can I do

[Root Beer]

There is a great book - "Click to Calm" by Emma Parsons - that I recommend to anyone who has a fearful Border Collie.

 

You can find it, and a description of it, on Amazon, if you are interested.

[Sue R]

Another good resource is Patricia McConnell's "The Cautious Canine".

 

I am not very good at advising concerning fear aggression (and I have one dog with a small inclination in that direction and a youngster who has a higher level of this problem) but one important thing to remember is to not encourage the fearfulness by the "Oh, you poor baby" sort of treatment of your dog.

 

Oftentimes when a dog is fear aggressive, the handler becomes anxious as well and transmits his/her own anxiety and apprehension (over what might happen) to the dog, which in turn causes the dog to feel that something worrisome is about to happen. A tight leash, higher-pitched voice, etc., will tend to make your dog more fearful.

 

Many handlers will endeavor to teach the dog calming techniques, or things to do to "defuse" the anxieties. You can work at redirecting your dog's attention away from the other dogs and to you. It may take a special, high-value treat or an activity your dog likes, or simply something mentally/physically challenging to get your dog's attention off the worrisome dog/situation, and onto you.

 

I believe my youngster was learning that he could react improperly to other dogs (and people - no aggression towards people but an escalating aversion to them) when we were utilizing only positive approaches to his problem. At that point, with regards to his "snarkiness" to other dogs (the best defense is a good offense, so make a pre-emptive strike, appeared to be his philosophy), was that I had to let him know that that behavior simply was not acceptable.

 

Many fear-aggressive dogs do not rely on or trust their handler to be "in charge". When your dog truly respects you (and I don't mean you are aggressively dominant with your dog), he/she will be more likely to trust you to be in control of any situation and therefore your dog will tend to be less fearful. You need to be the leader and have earned the respect and trust of your dog.

 

This is all easy to write down and not so easy to implement. It can be a process that takes some time and lots of patience and understanding. I surely hope that others will contribute to this thread with more helpful comments and insights than I can.

 

Best wishes!

[bc4pack]

Hey, I've got a great Yahoo group for you and anyone else with shy/timid dogs... called shy-k9s,

www.yahoogroups.com

The group really has access to good information in their files and through list members.

 

 

Tara

[c robertson]

Another good resource is Patricia McConnell's "The Cautious Canine".

 

I am not very good at advising concerning fear aggression (and I have one dog with a small inclination in that direction and a youngster who has a higher level of this problem) but one important thing to remember is to not encourage the fearfulness by the "Oh, you poor baby" sort of treatment of your dog.

 

Oftentimes when a dog is fear aggressive, the handler becomes anxious as well and transmits his/her own anxiety and apprehension (over what might happen) to the dog, which in turn causes the dog to feel that something worrisome is about to happen. A tight leash, higher-pitched voice, etc., will tend to make your dog more fearful.

 

Many handlers will endeavor to teach the dog calming techniques, or things to do to "defuse" the anxieties. You can work at redirecting your dog's attention away from the other dogs and to you. It may take a special, high-value treat or an activity your dog likes, or simply something mentally/physically challenging to get your dog's attention off the worrisome dog/situation, and onto you.

 

I believe my youngster was learning that he could react improperly to other dogs (and people - no aggression towards people but an escalating aversion to them) when we were utilizing only positive approaches to his problem. At that point, with regards to his "snarkiness" to other dogs (the best defense is a good offense, so make a pre-emptive strike, appeared to be his philosophy), was that I had to let him know that that behavior simply was not acceptable.

 

Many fear-aggressive dogs do not rely on or trust their handler to be "in charge". When your dog truly respects you (and I don't mean you are aggressively dominant with your dog), he/she will be more likely to trust you to be in control of any situation and therefore your dog will tend to be less fearful. You need to be the leader and have earned the respect and trust of your dog.

 

This is all easy to write down and not so easy to implement. It can be a process that takes some time and lots of patience and understanding. I surely hope that others will contribute to this thread with more helpful comments and insights than I can.

 

Best wishes!

SueR

Thanks for the advise. This is pretty much what the dog trainer told me.

When walking past someone with a dog, all obedience traing goes right out the window. I can not get his attention back on me. He barks visiously and lunges with all his weight behind it. This is when I lose control. I can not correct him when there is no slack in the leash. You mentioned using special treats. Do you have any suggestion as to how to do this. Timing is everything and in this situation, I just do not seem to know what to do. Thanks again for your help.

[Marie-Jo]

Hi,

 

I also have two border collies. The first one is a very good dog. The youngest one, Bill, is fear aggressive. I think this is the worst problem that a dog can have. We had the dog at 8 wks old. When he was about 3 - 4 months, he became fear aggressive with people, everything was scaring him on the street. I consult a trainer for behavioral problems. It helped a little bit, but not much. Every time visitors were coming I was very nervous because I was afraid that Bill would bite somebody. I was talking him for walks at night because it was not very pleasant having him bark at everything on the street, even birds. I was very discouraged because besides this problem, Bill is also the funniest, interesting and brilliant dog I had. What helped a lot was when I start listening to Cesar Milan, the Dog Whisperer. I know some people don't like him, but for us, it made the difference. Bill is much better. He is not perfect, I think he will always have a little problem but he is getting better. Now, when new visitors are coming, they know that they should not look at him, just ignore him. That way, he is not stress with people trying to touch him and after 5 minutes, he brings people his ball and wants to play. When we walk him, if I see him getting nervous when he sees other dogs or people nearby, I touch him at the neck and say no, before he start barking and that's it. I am not a dog trainer, I lack dog experience, but the situation is getting better every day, but it takes patience. And Bill sure deserves it.

[c robertson]

Hi,

 

I also have two border collies. The first one is a very good dog. The youngest one, Bill, is fear aggressive. I think this is the worst problem that a dog can have. We had the dog at 8 wks old. When he was about 3 - 4 months, he became fear aggressive with people, everything was scaring him on the street. I consult a trainer for behavioral problems. It helped a little bit, but not much. Every time visitors were coming I was very nervous because I was afraid that Bill would bite somebody. I was talking him for walks at night because it was not very pleasant having him bark at everything on the street, even birds. I was very discouraged because besides this problem, Bill is also the funniest, interesting and brilliant dog I had. What helped a lot was when I start listening to Cesar Milan, the Dog Whisperer. I know some people don't like him, but for us, it made the difference. Bill is much better. He is not perfect, I think he will always have a little problem but he is getting better. Now, when new visitors are coming, they know that they should not look at him, just ignore him. That way, he is not stress with people trying to touch him and after 5 minutes, he brings people his ball and wants to play. When we walk him, if I see him getting nervous when he sees other dogs or people nearby, I touch him at the neck and say no, before he start barking and that's it. I am not a dog trainer, I lack dog experience, but the situation is getting better every day, but it takes patience. And Bill sure deserves it.

Thank you for your reply. This discibes Chase exactly. It is very stressful and hurtful, because Chase too is the most affectionate,smart and as you said, funny of al my Border Collies. So, just to clarify, all you do is touch your dog on the neck when you see the source of his behaviour? anything else?

[hoku's mum]

When walking past someone with a dog, all obedience traing goes right out the window. I can not get his attention back on me. He barks visiously and lunges with all his weight behind it. This is when I lose control. I can not correct him when there is no slack in the leash. You mentioned using special treats. Do you have any suggestion as to how to do this. Timing is everything and in this situation, I just do not seem to know what to do. Thanks again for your help.

 

Try being a bit more proactive. When you see some one coming with a dog, or anything you think Chase will react to, move away, change direction, cross the street, turn around if you have to so that you can pass the person with a greater distance between you so that Chase will not feel threatened. Try not to loose his attention, so you won't have to struggle to get it back. Make sure that your body is between Chase and the scary thing. When you figure out what that 'safe' distance is, reward him (hot dogs, cheese, chicken, something super yummy to him, or maybe a tuggy toy and game of tug) for passing the scary thing with his attention on you. Be upbeat, no big deal, we are having fun here type of thing. S...l...o...w....l.....y work up to passing closer, rewarding for calmness and attention. If he reacts badly, deep breaths, go back to his last safe distance. It's up to you at this point to watch for things that he could react to and keep him at a safe (for him) distance. Hopefully you can work up to passing right by, and he will trust that you are in charge. Another thing that can help some dogs is to carry something in their mouth. It gives them something else to focus on... That really helped a friend's dog with similar issues. Hope this helps. Good luck!

[BayouBC]

I could be misreading your posts, but I'm assuming that you have Chase on a flat (regular) collar. My #1 suggestion for you would be to buy him a Halti or Gentle Leader (you can get them at almost any pet store). Both of these types of collars go around the dog's muzzle and then back around their ears, and the leash hooks under their chin. This gives you control over the dog's head and actually will give you more control over the dog entirely. So if Chase lunges at another dog or person, it actually will pull his head back around to you. And since you have control over where he's looking, you can MAKE him look at you instead of the other dogs.

 

After dealing with fear aggression with one of my BC's, this is the absolute first thing I'd recommend to anyone dealing with a fear aggressive dog. In the beginning of working with these guys, gaining some semblance of control is the very first step. Because you're right...obedience at the beginning is often times non-existent when the dog is presented with their "trigger".

 

Once you have a bit more control over Chase, follow the above advice on starting to desensitize him. And don't be afraid to tell people NO, they can't pet your dog or let their dog come greet him. If you have to, make the problem sound worse than it is and say that he'll bite. Better to have people afraid of your dog because of your words than have them afraid of him because he's actually nipped someone or another dog. Give yourself lots of time to work with him before starting to try and introduce people or dogs.

[Sue R]

Kristin made an excellent point - be proactive and do something BEFORE your dog sees the other dog and reacts. You will have much more impact if he's not already into "lunge and bark" mode.

 

I would be very careful using a Gentle Leader or Halti (and I've used Gentle Leaders) because a Gentle Leader can give a very strong correction if your dog lunges, and dogs have been known to slip out of Haltis, and then you've got something much more challenging on your hands. You may find that one or the other works well for you and your dog and, if so, great!

 

Working on fear aggression takes a lot of time and patience, and you will be looking for small steps in the right direction rather than a "perfect solution" all at once.

 

Reactive dogs may NEVER be trustworthy but can be managed and that's where you have to be the one in charge, anticipating and forestalling the behavior that is unacceptable.

 

Best wishes!

[Northof49]

SueR

 

When walking past someone with a dog, all obedience traing goes right out the window. I can not get his attention back on me. He barks visiously and lunges with all his weight behind it. This is when I lose control. I can not correct him when there is no slack in the leash. You mentioned using special treats. Do you have any suggestion as to how to do this. Timing is everything and in this situation, I just do not seem to know what to do. Thanks again for your help.

 

 

You don't ever ever want to correct a dog with agression issues - it may suppress the aggression for a short period of time, but it will make it worse. You also have to work subthreshold. If your dog is okay with a 20 feet distance between him and the other dog, you treat your dog for not reacting. THen you slowly work at having him be able to shrink the distance and still feel comfortable.

 

I would also suggest getting your dog used to a gentle leader, so that you have control of the head. I use these a lot when working with aggression issues, as then the handler has control of the head - the dog cannot reach out to snap at another dog. As well, in many instances the GL helps to calm the dog down.

 

You need to countercondition the dog so that the dog has a different outlook - other dogs around are good because mommy gives me yummy yummy treats, or a toy. Correcting and punishing the dog will only make things worse, and you will never develop any trust in you by the dog as strange dog equals mom going beserk and going nasty things to me so instead of not liking dogs 20 feet from me, I don't even want them 50 feet from me, so the aggression starts to escalate. THe books that have been recommmended are very good, and there is also another yahoo group that is good - agbeh group that deals with aggression issues in dogs with positive training techniques.

 

One person that I used to see at agility trials developed one of the worse cases of dog/dog aggression I have seen in one short training session from a dog that always liked other dogs. He put a choke chain on the dog and when the dog tried to go see another dog he would jerk the dog off its feet. I complained, but no one would do anything about it. By the 8th jerk the dog got it - dogs near me make my handler go beserk and hurt me, so he started trying to attack the other dogs to keep them away so his handler wouldn't go beserk on him. The next day the dog was impossible to have in the building, and his entries were never accepted for any other agilitly trials after that.

[bc4pack]

Yet again I'll refer you to both the shy-k9s group and agbeh (aggressive behaviour in dogs) on Yahoo Groups...If you would like some expert help and positive suggestions that WILL HELP your situation SIGNIFICANTLY....

 

www.yahoogroups.com

 

 

Just sign up.

[bc4pack]

Just as an addendum I'm NOT implying that there aren't any experienced people on this forum,all I'm suggesting is that for this particular problem there is a place to go with trainers that deal with reactive,fear aggressive,shy dogs day in and day out and can give you concrete steps in modifying behaviour that will help you and your dog longterm. On agbeh ANYONE giving suggestions give their training qualifications in their signature line(and yes I've checked those credentials).

 

You don't have to post,you can learn a lot from even their files .

 

I've got almost 20 years working a dog and am no slouch when it comes to handling a dog,including reactive/fear aggressive Border Collies, and I've picked up a lot from the groups.

 

NO disrespect intended to ANYONE on this forum but let's face it,we have no idea,realistically, what background anyone has...Do we have any trainers that specialize in reactive dogs or shy dogs? I simply don't know.

 

I know you can GREAT suggestions here on how to perfect an outrun or help shedding. I know we have narc handlers(yeah I'm one) ,SAR handlers, rescue folks and those making a living off of their livestock...Do we have professionals with experience in behaviour modification? Again,I don't know. If we do I would sure like to know...

 

All it boils down to is...if you would like some FREE professional help , take a gander at the specialized groups.

 

 

All the best,

 

Tara

[bc4pack]

Just as an addendum I'm NOT implying that there aren't any experienced people on this forum,all I'm suggesting is that for this particular problem there is a place to go with trainers that deal with reactive,fear aggressive,shy dogs day in and day out and can give you concrete steps in modifying behaviour that will help you and your dog longterm. On agbeh ANYONE giving suggestions give their training qualifications in their signature line(and yes I've checked those credentials).

 

You don't have to post,you can learn a lot from even their files .

 

I've got almost 20 years working a dog and am no slouch when it comes to handling a dog,including reactive/fear aggressive Border Collies, and I've picked up a lot from the groups.

 

NO disrespect intended to ANYONE on this forum but let's face it,we have no idea,realistically, what background anyone has...Do we have any trainers that specialize in reactive dogs or shy dogs? I simply don't know.

 

I know you can GREAT suggestions here on how to perfect an outrun or help shedding. I know we have narc handlers(yeah I'm one) ,SAR handlers, rescue folks and those making a living off of their livestock...Do we have professionals with experience in behaviour modification? Again,I don't know. If we do I would sure like to know...

 

All it boils down to is...if you would like some FREE professional help , take a gander at the specialized groups.

 

 

All the best,

 

Tara

[bc4pack]

Just as an addendum I'm NOT implying that there aren't any experienced people on this forum,all I'm suggesting is that for this particular problem there is a place to go with trainers that deal with reactive,fear aggressive,shy dogs day in and day out and can give you concrete steps in modifying behaviour that will help you and your dog longterm. On agbeh ANYONE giving suggestions give their training qualifications in their signature line(and yes I've checked those credentials).

 

You don't have to post,you can learn a lot from even their files .

 

I've got almost 20 years working a dog and am no slouch when it comes to handling a dog,including reactive/fear aggressive Border Collies, and I've picked up a lot from the groups.

 

NO disrespect intended to ANYONE on this forum but let's face it,we have no idea,realistically, what background anyone has...Do we have any trainers that specialize in reactive dogs or shy dogs? I simply don't know.

 

I know you can GREAT suggestions here on how to perfect an outrun or help shedding. I know we have narc handlers(yeah I'm one) ,SAR handlers, rescue folks and those making a living off of their livestock...Do we have professionals with experience in behaviour modification? Again,I don't know. If we do I would sure like to know...

 

All it boils down to is...if you would like some FREE professional help , take a gander at the specialized groups.

 

 

All the best,

 

Tara

[Alaska]

What Tara said. You have a BC, so you reasonably asked for help from a BC board. However, this board is not a particularly good reservoir of training expertise when it comes to reactive dogs. The groups that Tara mentioned are, so please check them out.

 

That said, I find that it is incredibly helpful to have an experienced trainer (as in, dozens or hundreds of dogs worth of experience) show you, in person, how to apply desensitizing techniques. Most people have a hard time figuring out on their own how to find that sweet spot where the dog is close to triggering (the point where you want to begin desensitizing) but has not yet actually started to stress. You're in a part of the world with really good resources. A lot of training facilities now offer "Reactive Dog" classes where a trainer shows you how to practice with your dog in a safe environment. Check out this article about reactive dog classes, which includes advice about how to find a good one and avoid bad ones.

 

Here are a few trainers in or near PA with good reputations for helping people who live with reactive dogs:

 

Great Companions Allentown, PA. This is the website of Ali Brown, author of the book "Scaredy Dog". There is a lot of information on her website that you may find useful, and she offers reactive dog classes every week. I haven't read the book or met her, so this is not an endorsement, but the information on the site looks good.

 

Peaceable Paws Pat Miller, Hagerstown MD. Offers a "reactive rover camp." Will also refer you to other trainers she endorses. Excellent trainer -- I can endorse her.

 

Camp R.E.W.A.R.D. Pam Dennison, author of "Bringing light to Shadow" and "How to right a dog gone wrong" Also recommended. Take a look at this article by Pam that explains what she does in Camp R.E.W.A.R.D.

 

Have fun. It's very empowering to connect with people who understand exactly what you're dealing with and can give you solid tools to fix the problem.

 

EDITED TO ADD: When you say "all obedience goes out the window when..." what that says to me is that you could probably use some help figuring out exactly how close to triggers your dog can work without losing his focus. You rmain goal is for your dog to stay focused on you, not shift his focus to whatever makes him reactive. By desensitizing, you gradually move the point where your dog loses focus closer and closer to the thing that makes him react, until he is able to maintain his focus on you (i.e. his obedience does not go out the window) no matter how close he is. Helping you find the distance to start at and understand how gradually to progress is the part where a trainer can really help. Other than that, you're probably doing everything right already.

[SoloRiver]

I would be very careful using a Gentle Leader or Halti (and I've used Gentle Leaders) because a Gentle Leader can give a very strong correction if your dog lunges

 

If there is any danger that this dog may injure someone, the dog's head needs to be controlled, period. This is only fair to everyone around the dog, and is critical for protecting the dog from himself. A Gentle Leader in the right hands has exactly the effect you'd want if the dog does lunge (provided you are not doing something stupid like using the GL with a Flexi or a long, loose lead) -- it is like reaching out and closing the dog's muzzle with your hand. More importantly the GL should be in the hands of a handler who is paying attention to the dog's environment and not allowing lunges and other explosive behaviors to be triggered in the first place. Learning how to do this (and no, you will never be perfect at it and that is OK -- dogs are more forgiving than we think they are, even reactive ones) takes time and is a lot easier if you have in-person help. Tara is right, you should subscribe to the groups she describes, they'll help a lot but most of all you need someone who can observe you with your dog and help both of you learn how to train and manage the problem behaviors.

 

You are very close to one of the best veterinary behaviorists in the country, Dr. Karen Overall. If you are willing to drive to the Philadelphia area, she can help you in person and she is very, very good at what she does. Without her I would not have my heart's dog. If you are interested, email or PM me and I will get you in touch with her. I also know a trainer outside of Philadelphia, Leslie McDevitt, who is excellent at working with fearful and reactive dogs, and often conducts follow-up with Dr. Overall's patients. She would be worth getting in touch with if you cannot find someone closer.

[bc4pack]

Soloriver and Alaska, THANKS for adding to my post ( and I DID NOT intend for it to be triple sent, ...agh!) .You are both ABSOLUTELY correct in that some hands on help would be the best thing, and I am glad that you were aware of the resources available,in the area.

 

 

 

Tara

[c robertson]

Thanks so much to all of you! I have registered with the shyk9 web site and am awaiting there approval. I feel much better going into this and am willing to do whatever I can. Your suggestions have given me hope. Chase is a wonderful dog and is worth the effort. I will keep you posted with any sucesses and/or disppointments . It helps just to talk to people who understand.

By the way, Chase is showing much improvement when in the car. He no longer reacts to every living thing he sees in the street. People are now walking past the vehicle, jogging, skate boarding etc. He shows interest but he no longer barks aggressively. It seems he considers the car as well as his home, as comfort zones. It is not much, but to me it is a major acheivement.

[bc4pack]

I'll see ya there!

 

Tara

[border_collie_crazy]

I recomend clicking calm behaviour toward the sorace of fear, you have to find the dogs comfort zone, and stand just outsdie it, when the dog looks at the "scary" soace clamy click and treat. slowly you will be able to shrink the comfort zone. I had a similer problem with Happy, she was so terrified of strangers that I could not get her within 20 feet of a even a tiny pet store without her freaking out. I took her to a privet trainer and she did the clicker methode I described above with Happy, within a few weeks was able able to calmy nap inside the same stores that we previously could not get her within 20 feet of. and she has never had a problem with people since, actually she now adores people. and kids, who caused her the most fear before, can now fall all over her, pull her tail, take her toys etc.. and just smiles at them calmly and continues to play with them. today you would never guess that she used to lunge and snap(she never pulled away, she would lunge and snap, intending to scare away, but would never ever touch anyone) at kids.