Might be opening a can of worms

[Bo Peep]

I HAVE never and WILL never buy an AKC border collie, but I do enjoy competing in obedience trials (we only have one a year in Idaho) a long time ago you didn't have to have your dog altered. Just send in your ABC papers, and a picture and you get an ILP #. I really didn't think this was supporting the AKC, just giving me another avenue of options of things I could do with my dogs. Keep them busy- that's the motto!!! I enjoy a dog that can do herding, agility & obedience. I like dog people. I chose this breed mainly for farm work & trialing, but found out they were so good at other things and actually enjoyed them. When the weather is bad, we enjoy inside activities.

I would rather have my dog neutered than duel register him. If this topic is unexceptional, please ignore my ignorance.

What do the rest of you do when you show in agility etc...?

[MaggieDog]

I show in USDAA - there are enough trials around that it's easy to trial as much or as little as I want and they aren't encouraging breeding for looks so I feel better about supporting them. I believe there are now a variety of venues for obedience as well, it's just not my thing. UKC also registers mixed breeds and such, though they are also a conformation venue.

 

AKC ILP now requires S/N proof as well, which makes me feel a bit better, but I can't se spending $26 to show in that venue when I have plenty of others to choose from.

[Bo Peep]

Not sure what S/N proof is. Wow- have I been out of this for a looooooooooong time!!!

[MaggieDog]

S/N = spay/neuter

[Bo Peep]

I really hate to neuter him after seeing him on sheep, so......I guess I have to make a decision on if I want to do obedience and other activities or just herding. He's not ready for any of those yet at 6 months, so we will try all of our options, friend, service dog, obedience, herding, agility, in that order. Got to have obedience in a service dog. Might as well show it off.

P.S. I still show I'm a male- LOL. I'm so computer blonde can't figure this out yet.

[Kat's Dogs]

You have to neuter only if you get a straight ILP (send in pictures, say what breed you think your dog is)

 

if you have ABCA papers (this is what I might do - also the same with ISDS and a few others) you just send a copy of your pedigree/ABCA papers, fill out the rest of the form with name/address/etc, send a picture (for verification) and you are AKC registered - nothing else required.

 

I think this is fine, because you are not having anything to do with an AKC breeder - that is what counts the most in my opinion. Although, some people, yes, do not deal with AKC at all - and that is understandable, but I wouldn't kick you out 'cause you play AKC sports!

 

ETA:

Here are the AKC links

 

This is the registration page:

http://www.akc.org/reg/index.cfm?nav_area=registration

What you want (I think) is the Open Registration - the one that has a picture of a border collie ILP is only if the dog is NOT registerd anywhere else, with the Open Registration you are fully registerd with AKC (even eligible for the Conformation).

 

Here is the actual form for open registration - a PDF file - that you can look at so you know just what info you need to do it:

http://www.akc.org/pdfs/ADOPEN.pdf

 

I hope all that made sense....

[Black Watch Debatable]

Here's the thing: AKC events are subsidized by registering high numbers of volume-produced puppies.

 

The reason the AKC feels it has to increase the number of AKC puppy mill registrations is that "events" are not paying for themselves [...] The net loss due to "events" is now $10 million a year, and to recover this loss the AKC will have to register 666,666 pet shop "Misery Puppies" a year at $15 each.

 

In short, with every AKC rosette comes a little bundle of puppy mill misery. [Source]

 

As board moderator Eileen stated in this thread, "So on the backs of these wretched brood bitches and their pups, you enjoy your AKC events."

 

If you like spending time around dogs and dog people, please support clubs and associations that don't depend on puppy-mill "misery puppies" to pay the rent.

[kelpiegirl]

Just an update bwd- the AKC rescinded their plans to "work" with puppy mills, aka pet stores due to a HUGE negative response from dog folks.

Julie

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

They haven't rescinded, just put the plans off to directly market the ACK through puppy shops. They still have multiple marketing schemes to register AKC puppymill pups and the CEO of Hunte Corp, the world's largest puppy mill octopus company, was just accepted into the German Shepherd breed club and is showing German Shepherds at top US shows. No, they haven't given up on that angle - they CAN'T, the numbers don't support it.

[kelpiegirl]

I didn't know that Rebecca. Just goes to show that money over rides everything else.

Julie

 

They haven't rescinded, just put the plans off to directly market the ACK through puppy shops. They still have multiple marketing schemes to register AKC puppymill pups and the CEO of Hunte Corp, the world's largest puppy mill octopus company, was just accepted into the German Shepherd breed club and is showing German Shepherds at top US shows. No, they haven't given up on that angle - they CAN'T, the numbers don't support it.

[Eileen Stein]

You have to neuter only if you get a straight ILP (send in pictures, say what breed you think your dog is)

 

if you have ABCA papers (this is what I might do - also the same with ISDS and a few others) you just send a copy of your pedigree/ABCA papers, fill out the rest of the form with name/address/etc, send a picture (for verification) and you are AKC registered - nothing else required. . . .

 

What you want (I think) is the Open Registration - the one that has a picture of a border collie ILP is only if the dog is NOT registerd anywhere else, with the Open Registration you are fully registerd with AKC (even eligible for the Conformation).

 

I hope that isn't what you want. If you do it, you would be supporting the AKC, and supporting the idea that it's appropriate to register border collies in a conformation registry. To me, a chance to "show off" my dogs' obedience would not be worth registering a border collie with the AKC. I feel we are engaged in a struggle for the future of this breed, and I wouldn't want to give aid and comfort to the enemy.

 

I'm glad you would rather have your dog neutered than dual register him, and I bet you can keep your dog busy enough with farm work, service work and non-AKC agility not to have to.

[Katelynn & Gang]

I really hate to neuter him after seeing him on sheep, so......I guess I have to make a decision on if I want to do obedience and other activities or just herding.

 

Training any dog to Open level takes a TON of time, effort and money. If you are a new handler, it can takes years, maybe even dogs to get to Open (let alone being successful at it).

 

Considering the quoted above, I am guessing you are wanting to breed him at some point in time. If this is the case, I’d dare say he will be more then busy training so he can make it to Open level and be successful enough so someone will want to breed their "good" bitch to him.

 

If he isn't going to be busy enough in training alone so you can trial him in USBCSA trials and make it to Open successfully, then the best idea would be to just neuter him. Then you will not have to worry about people asking (peer pressure is a killer, especially if it is friends in a sport with you like agility or obedience) to use him on low quality bitchs or him running off breeding to whatever will move its tail and I am sure I do not have to mention the health dangers of keeping a male whole.

 

When he is neutered you can get a ILP if you want and not worry about upping the AKC's Border Collies registration numbers (that are at the moment going down) and you can keep him as busy as a bee with all the fun activites you’d like to do with him in AKC.

[Bo Peep]

I think neutering him would solve the problem easier and not bring any AKC bred pups into it. I think that's my best shot here.

P.S. He's cringing as I type.

[MaggieDog]

Neutering is probably also the way to go if you want him to work as a service dog in public with you - most owner-trainers I know neuter their pups before they start hard core public access work and many would never think of allowing a service dog to remain intact, though it has been done.

[MrSnappy]

I really hate to neuter him after seeing him on sheep, so......I guess I have to make a decision on if I want to do obedience and other activities or just herding. He's not ready for any of those yet at 6 months, so we will try all of our options, friend, service dog, obedience, herding, agility, in that order.

 

I am not sure how you can base a breeding decision on a 6 month old pup's performance on sheep.

 

Of course neutering him removes the potential to breed him if he does turn out to be some kind of stellar working dog, but I am going to go out on a limb here and suggest that if "friend, service dog, obedience herding, agility 'in that order'" are your performance criteria, then you do not have a stellar herding dog in the making, but rather a well rounded companion dog. There are already way way way too many well rounded companion dogs on the market (and the chopping block) so I see no reason to breed such a dog. IMO, neutering will eliminate the temptation to breed a dog that brings nothing more than average value to the breed overall.

 

I'm going to go out a little further on that same limb and suggest that breeding should really be left to the people who know and understand what makes a GREAT working dog, ergo producing GREAT working dogs *from* GREAT working dogs. As someone has mentioned in this thread already, getting to open (and therefore proving your dog is a great working dog) is often not a goal someone achieves with just one dog, and especially not in the order of performance criteria you've outlined. I'd say that if Cody is a great dog overall, let him be a great neutered dog. If breeding excellent dogs in some day your goal, there will be other dogs to choose from. Too often people get so wrapped up in their one great dog that they fail to see his limitations, or they modify their definition of greatness to include a dog that really does not need to reproduce, given the sheer numbers of dogs already reproducing as it is.

[Bo Peep]

Thank you everyone for your help with making my desision. Getting all caught up in thinking of herding again after a 10 year break just gave me the "bug". I guess I had to face facts that I'm not able to get out every day like I used to. When you can only train once a week, I don't think you'll ever get a dog to open. I'll feel better once he's clipped. Thanks for helping me make the right choice every one of you.