juliepoudrier Posted January 9, 2006 Report Share Posted January 9, 2006 Does anyone have any information regarding the pros and cons of *miniature* donkeys? Are they able to effectively deal with predators like stray dogs and coyotes? A quick search on the internet indicated that at least some people use them for guardian work, but I'm curious as to their effectiveness compared to a standard donkey. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laurie etc Posted January 9, 2006 Report Share Posted January 9, 2006 Originally posted by juliepoudrier:Does anyone have any information regarding the pros and cons of *miniature* donkeys? Are they able to effectively deal with predators like stray dogs and coyotes? A quick search on the internet indicated that at least some people use them for guardian work, but I'm curious as to their effectiveness compared to a standard donkey. J. Not sure how effective they really are at intimidating dogs/coyotes, but the one we have out with my daughter's horses (gelded)is quite the little "alarmist" when any strange dogs or people arrive. At least he alerts that "something ain't right" with his herd ... When I got him, he had been raised with goats as a "protector" it took him a while to adjust to the horses - he was scared of them at first. If my daughter takes her dogs with her to the pasture, he does not bother them - but he is used to those particular dogs. I plan on bringing him over to my place when my fencing is finished and I get sheep. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cindy Evans Posted January 9, 2006 Report Share Posted January 9, 2006 I have one with my sheep. She is VERY agressive to dogs. I also have the fence hot wired top and bottom on the outside so she hopefully never has to be put to the test. I don't think she could handle a large dog as she is not much bigger than the sheep, but I know she would try. I have to take her out to worm and vaccinate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howdyjabo Posted January 9, 2006 Report Share Posted January 9, 2006 My Donkeys didn't use their size-- they will fisrt try and take the stock away. If the dogs keep coming and aggitate the stock they will break off like they are leaving. Then they will circle around and come in behind the dogs when they have forgotten about him. He'll grab them with his teeth and hold them while he guts them with his feet.It takes at most 10 seconds. Don't think any dog stands a chance -- except the other ones. and they usually high tail it out of there when they hear the wailing of the one he got hold of. The trick to working the stock with the Donkey is to look for it to start leaving the stock. Back the dogs off so the stock relaxes- and he'll stay with them. start moving again real slow and again wait for the donkey to look like hes leaving- Stop the dog. After awhile the Donkey will relax and as long as the dog is not pressuring the stock he'll relax and leave the dogs alone. The dog doesn't have to do anything but steer-- the Donkey will make the sheep or goats move off in a group. And they do recongnise new dogs- so you have to start all over for every dog. I had to make mine out when the sheep were lambing- He would get upset when the ewe tried to seperate herself- and would try and make her get back in with the group. Eventually she'd just lie down and have the lambs-- and the Donkey would take over guarding them - and they would attach to him. Donkeys are like guard dogs--- when you get a good one theres nothing to beat it. But...... you have to risk getting a bad one and the havoc that can cause. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laurie etc Posted January 9, 2006 Report Share Posted January 9, 2006 wow! I wonder if my Donkey will turn on to protection when he get's moved from horses back to smaller livestock(which would be great, because I worry about some loose shepherd-mix type dogs that wander my road sometimes). The horses he's with are big - so maybe he doesn't feel the need to protect them so much? He does hang close to them, though, but he's more of a follower than a leader. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted January 9, 2006 Author Report Share Posted January 9, 2006 Karen, I think the concern with the minis is that a large dog might be too much for them to take on. Are you saying that a mini probably could do the trick? I wouldn't mind a small standard donkey, but minis are easily available here which is why I was wondering about them. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fosher Posted January 9, 2006 Report Share Posted January 9, 2006 If minis are anything like standard donkeys, give me a guard dog. The ones that guard are dangerous to working dogs, and unlike LGDs don't learn to trust Border collies, but most of them don't guard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howdyjabo Posted January 9, 2006 Report Share Posted January 9, 2006 I'm thinking that their smaller size wouldn't be that much of a factor--- if they had the same attitude and style. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted January 10, 2006 Author Report Share Posted January 10, 2006 Thanks Karen. Bill, It seems that people have their livestock guardian of choice and then have strong feelings against all others. In most of my reading, I have seen recommendations for LGDs when the area to be covered is large or predators are something other than (or in addition to) stray dogs and coyotes. I am looking for a guardian for a smaller area where the biggest concern would be coyotes. The farm owner doesn't particularly want a guardian dog (and, honestly, neither do I, largely because I've seen so many LGD failures and just don't want another dog to look after) and we both are horse people with no real affinity for llamas, so a donkey seemed our best choice. (And if the donkey doesn't work out, it can be trained to drive and find other work on the farm! ) J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doubleofarm Posted January 10, 2006 Report Share Posted January 10, 2006 I spoke to my neighbor last night that has 5 mini donkeys and she said the breeder she originally bought from lives in northern NJ. They have a large bear population and the minis did guard against them. When I go over to her house on my quad with BCs running behind me, her donkeys immediately alert and get pretty anxious. Tina Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howdyjabo Posted January 10, 2006 Report Share Posted January 10, 2006 I have been told that a gelding works out better- and to keep it down to one- so it really attaches to the sheep. I know for a fect that an intact male can be trouble. Come rutting season mine wasn't too particular-- and the sheep suffered greatly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laurie etc Posted January 10, 2006 Report Share Posted January 10, 2006 Originally posted by juliepoudrier:we both are horse people with no real affinity for llamas, so a donkey seemed our best choice. (And if the donkey doesn't work out, it can be trained to drive and find other work on the farm! ) J. Julie - I originally got ours to keep a lay-up (horse) company - and he was perfect for that. Very calming influence and didn't mind being locked up all the time. When that horse recovered, the Donkey got turned out with a rowdy yearling colt, and again it worked out perfectly - He tolerated the roughhousing - but taught the colt some manners. Now he's out with two retired horses. So if your farm has horses, there's always a babysitter job for him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebecca, Irena Farm Posted January 10, 2006 Report Share Posted January 10, 2006 Julie, I've heard of failures in every type of guard animal you choose. Guard dogs excel in more than just the situations you describe: They are attentive to the stock when ill or in trouble, and actively alert the shepherd to these situations (just had this happen yesterday, actually) They tend to ward off the majority of dangers without the need for major confrontation. I live in a densely populated neighborhood and really have no need to further antagonize my neighbors when their "dog du jour" gets killed or severely injured by my flock guardian. Dogs work smart. They can actively care for a flock when you are not around. They learn from you what's normal and what's not, and they'll do their best to keep things "within normal limits." I like it when my dogs keep a newborn warm while the mother has subsequent lambs. But they rarely steal said lamb or allow it to bond. As with any guard animal, your success depends almost entirely on the instincts of the animal you select (I'd want a guard beast from a long line of specially bred guardian animals, no matter what the species), PLUS what sort of things you will be willing to put up with during the training process. I've had no trouble with keeping dogs happy here on a mere 14 acres. It's not how much land you have, it's the level of predator pressure you experience. I don't think I would have wanted to depend on a single donkey or llama the night I had a large pack of coyotes split in three and enter the pasture at three points of the compass. For every Bad Guard Dog story you can tell I can tell you a good one about guard dogs, and a Bad Donkey story, or a Bad Llama. I have a neighbor who raises goats, sheep and mini cattle. She had a llama for a couple of years and had some losses - her tiny farm is cut into four different grazing paddocks and the llama would just ignore what was going on in other paddocks. He also couldn't be put in with any ram, bull, or buck, and couldn't be in with any of the stock during tupping, rut, or bulling. She now has a pair of Akbash/Pyr crosses and has had no problems since then. I recently sold my oldest male Maremma to a guy who tried a llama AND a donkey in succession. He lost his entire lamb crop last year, plus several young ewes. His kids love the donkey, though. He's almost done lambing this year and hasn't lost a single baby. My husband's aunt has a goat farm and they have a guard mini Jack. They are having worlds of trouble with it - it has decided it would rather hang out with the calves than the goats. So their goats are being picked off at a rate of one a night while the jack looks on, literally in the next paddock. Another friend has to catch his mini and put him up before he can do the least little thing with his sheep with the dogs. It's a personal choice I guess, but that would drive me batty. BattiER. So my opinion, it's a matter of picking your poison . . . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fosher Posted January 10, 2006 Report Share Posted January 10, 2006 FWIW, my opinion about what works and doesn't work isn't based on an affinity. I resisted getting guard dogs because, like Julie, I didn't want another dog to look after. But after talking with people who had guard dogs, donkeys, and llamas, I came to realize that people with donkeys and llamas spent a lot of time making excuses for them, or else they didn't really have any predator pressure to speak of. One group that I worked with was persuaded that you needed lots of llamas -- just one wouldn't do the trick. Well, that's great for the person selling the llamas, but it didn't really seem to do very much for the animals they were supposed to guard. At the very least, you need to consider what Rebecca said: get a guard animal of whatever species from a line of guard animals that are bred specifically for the purpose, and be prepared for a period of adjustment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeltaBluez Tess Posted January 10, 2006 Report Share Posted January 10, 2006 I have a Grt Pyr and he is wonderful with the sheep. I also have an Arab and when the coyotes appear the sheep run and hide near or under her belly. When she had her foal, you could see the coyotes beat a wide path around the pasture....say, except for the one foolish coyote who was in the pasture and then had to run for his life and got picked up and tossed and lost half of his tail with the aged Arab mare on his backside. She tossed him a good 10 feet in the air and the only way he managed to live was to run under the gate. Never saw "bob-tail" the coyote again.....I am sure he avoids our area like the plague. My Grt Pyr was one of the best investments that I ever did and the old Arab was the second. My other horse could care less about the sheep but the old Arab is pretty protective if the sheep are threatened .....but when I herd with my Border Collies, the Grt Pyr and the mare just watch and hang out. Diane Pagel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kajarrel Posted January 10, 2006 Report Share Posted January 10, 2006 Julie, Do you really need a guardian? I've had sheep for 10 years now and haven't lost a lamb or adult (to my knowledge), although we're surrounded by coyotes. I use the premier mesh netting with a woven wire perimeter fence (in some areas). I'm not against guard animals and wouldn't hesitate to get one IF we had problems, but without problems the risks/extra work doesn't seem justified. Kim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted January 10, 2006 Author Report Share Posted January 10, 2006 Kim, I don't really know if there's a problem--so far I've had no trouble at my place, and I don't think my neighbor has had trouble at hers. Like you, I'd just as soon not have anything if it wasn't necessary. And I'm not planning to run out and get something--just exploring the alternatives really because it came up in conversation with my neighbor (the farm owner). All of the farmers around here (mostly cattlemen) say coyotes are a problem. But the sheep are behind woven wire. The only access for predators would be under gates or under the fence. I guess the former could be fixed with RR ties or something similar, and the latter could be solved with a hot wire. This isn't my place, though, so any decisions have to be agreed to by the owner too (who also owns some of the sheep). So really just looking for input so if we do need something we'll have the research done. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cindy Evans Posted January 10, 2006 Report Share Posted January 10, 2006 I have a donkey because my husband says no more dogs! He has a pack of beagles and a german shepherd, while I have a border collie to total 14 dogs. What harm would one more do? The donkey like I said is not much larger than the sheep, and I doubt that she could do much against a large dog or a pack except get hurt herself. The person who gave her to me picked out a jenny for me because she said that the jacks were not much good unless you gelded them. They would just annoy the sheep! Mine doesn't like dogs and has to be removed to do anything with the sheep, and if you do something to upset her(like remove her from her sheep)she gets mad, and let me tell you donkeys get mad. Then they pout. She is very annoying, but she does have her good points. I just have to keep reminding myself of that! I know we have lots of coyotes around here because there is a fox pen less than a mile away. It is stocked with coyotes instead of foxes, They are constantly replacing them. I just think that the hot wire on the outside of the fence does more than the donkey to protect the sheep, but I will not let my dog in while she is with them! I agree with Bill and Rebecca. I think a dog would be better, but the donkey is better than nothing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebecca, Irena Farm Posted January 10, 2006 Report Share Posted January 10, 2006 Offset hotwire is a very good idea. Assuming that it is hot! You have to watch it all the time during lambing especially. Oh, one other thing that dogs do that I've never heard of another species doing - they keep critters, both rodents and winged predators, out of the pasture. Thus I can free range my ducks (and soon my baby ducks) with complete confidence. And around here buzzards can sometimes get bold enough to pick at weak lambs. I don't know about predators out your way, Julie, but I know that they are extraordinarily bad the last couple years in Rockingham, where Kate lives and where her neighbor lives, who lost all the lambs to coys. On the other hand, Tony doesn't seem to have a problem down in Randolph, but of course he's got the super-duper high quality fencing. We've got this do-it-yourself Flashlight Farmer deal here that's falling apart thanks to my early naive days when I let all and sundry run my sheep into the fences. Now I only let my own dogs do that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kajarrel Posted January 10, 2006 Report Share Posted January 10, 2006 I've also heard stories from the local dairy people about coyote problems but that hasn't been our (or our neighbors') experience. Then again, we have a live and let live attitude and don't mess with coyotes that don't hurt our sheep. I've actually rotated the sheep in the dark with with coyotes howling a mere 100 or so yards away. My dogs don't even blink. Hope your luck continues to hold up! Kim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted January 11, 2006 Author Report Share Posted January 11, 2006 Originally posted by Rebecca, Brook Cove Farm:Oh, one other thing that dogs do that I've never heard of another species doing - they keep critters, both rodents and winged predators, out of the pasture. Thus I can free range my ducks (and soon my baby ducks) with complete confidence. Having lost yet another of my chickens to a hawk, I understand the utility of dogs (as opposed to other critters, since my sheep don't seem to be stopping the hawks! ) at protecting my poultry. (Funny, I kept saying "why don't they take the roosters?" but when it was my beautiful little blue rooster that was taken, I didn't feel any better about it.) Anyway, my poor free range chickens are no longer safe to range, except when I'm home and the dogs, specifically Jill and Willow, who shadow the chickens constantly, can be in the yard as a deterrent to the hawks. But I do remember from childhood hawks swooping down right in front of all of us to try to take a chicken or duck, so I wonder if a dog (or anything else) can provide complete protection of poultry, especially in large areas. Still, even a reduction in predation is a good thing.... I had been thinking of using high-tensile strand fencing and know folks who use it successfully, but the more I think about predation, the more I think that going the extra mile with woven wire might be the smart thing to do. I wonder how Joy's free-range chickens would react to a hot wire (since they are in and out of the sheep pasture all the time).... J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kajarrel Posted January 11, 2006 Report Share Posted January 11, 2006 My chickens and ducks run right through the hot electonetting - I think their feathers protect them from getting a shock. The geese and larger birds "walk around" the fence. I did have a tragic incident, though, a few years ago. We had a pair of swans and the female was sitting for the first time. Although the male swan was used to the electric fence, and had avoided it for years, something about "fatherhood" made him decide that the sheep were dangerous and when he attacked them he got caught in the electric fence and was killed (apparently, since I didn't witness the episode). In this case my husband and I kept wondering why couldn't it have been the female that got killed since "Manny" was such a nice, goofy guy and she was/is aloof. It took us 3 years to replace Manny, but we now use 5 strand high-tensile/rope around the yard (where the ponds are located) or woven wire so I'm hoping that we won't repeat this incident. Kim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NancyO Posted January 11, 2006 Report Share Posted January 11, 2006 Be careful of hawks and border collie pups. I had an owner of one of my pups tell me that she had been walking her puppy (about 12 weeks old at the time) in Gettysburg state park (they live across teh street from the park) and a red tail hawk swooped down to grab the puppy! She said her son told her they eat skunks and maybe the puppy being black and white triggered the attack. The hawk did not get the puppy, thank goodness! Nancy O Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted January 11, 2006 Author Report Share Posted January 11, 2006 Oh my, Nancy, what a story! I think hawks can be quite bold when they are really hungry. I have a cat I used to let out for a little while each evening back when I was still in Elizabeth City--at least till I saw a great horned owl hanging around on a dead pecan snag. They will take house cats, so that was the end of JellyBean's evening outdoor adventures.... J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kim @ Flying H Farms Posted January 11, 2006 Report Share Posted January 11, 2006 We use 3 great pyrs to guard our goats..and they are wonderful. I had thought about using a mini or standard donkey, but went with the dogs instead. I was more afraid of the donkey kicking a pregnant goat or kid than afraid of what the dogs would do. My inlaws have chickens and they keep their great pyr next to the chicken pen. Snowball barks at the buzzards and hawks to keep them away. She really amazes me at how she looks up in the sky and 'watches' for the birds. I have seen our dogs do the same thing too. Especially when we have newborn kids running around. I think it's whatever would suit your need kinda thing. Some things work for some folks and some things don't. Thank goodness CATS are NOT guardians!! my Tigger would certainly fail...but as a recliner guard cat..he's the best!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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