Kelpies vs Border Collies--long (but fascinating ;) )

[blackacre]

KELPIES: CAN THEY CUT IT?

 

So how much do you really know about Kelpies? Come to think of it, how much do I really know? (Full disclosure: almost everything in the article is based on my personal experience with one dog, Toby, that I imported from Oregon as a pup, so be prepared for some shameless generalizations.)

 

The Kelpie is, of course, the premier stock dog of Australia. It is estimated that there are close to half a million working Kelpies on that continent. By a historical accident, it is the Border Collie that is largely looked down upon there as a fluffy show dog and not given serious consideration as a working stock dog.

 

While Kelpies and Border Collies share a common ancestry, Kelpies are not descended from Border Collies. Indeed, it is probable that the Kelpie was established as a recognizable breed in Australia some years before Old Hemp was registered with the newly created ISDS Registry. Here's what Tony Parsons, the premier authority on the breed and a long time breeder and trainer of Kelpies, has to say in his book, "The Australian Kelpie":

 

"The Border Collie, although clearly developed from Old Country dogs, was not produced from exactly the same type of collies as was the Kelpie."

 

Early Dogs in the Kelpie Line *

 

Let us begin with Jack Gleeson's black and tan bitch "Kelpie", bred by George Robertson on Worrock Station, Victoria. George was from Scotland and had been breeding working dogs for his own use for some years, from working collies brought over from Scotland.

 

Jack twice bred Kelpie to a black dog usually referred to as Tully's Moss, after his owner Robert Tully. Moss was the product of a breeding between Clyde and Lassie, two of the famous Rutherford strain of sheepdogs bred in Scotland since 1760 by the Rutherford family, some of whom had moved to Australia. Several of the get from these breedings figure in the Kelpie line.

 

Meanwhile, two individuals known as Elliott and Allen imported a breeding pair of working collies called Brutus and Jenny, who were mated en route to Australia and produced a dog called Caesar, who in his turn was also mated to Kelpie to produce a daughter known as King's Kelpie. It is thanks to this apparently outstanding bitch and her performance at the 1879 Forbes Trial held in NSW that these dogs became known as "Kelpie's pups" or simply "Kelpies".

 

Tully's Moss, previously bred twice to Kelpie, was also bred to Kelpie's daughter King's Kelpie to produce the winner of the 1881 Forbes Trial in NSW, Grand Flaneur.

 

Tully's Moss was also mated to a daughter of King's Kelpie called Sally (Laddie x King's Kelpie) to produce the famous black dog known as The Black Barb or simply The Barb, said to be the foundation of a strain of Kelpies that was pushy and quick to bite and hence was said to be better suited to close up work, in contrast to the other strain described above that was more often used for open paddock work. Although many Kelpie breeders today strive to produce an all around dog, the distinction between yard dogs and paddock dogs survives in Australia to this day.

 

* I am indebted to the excellent Noonbarra website: http://www.noonbarra.com/ from which I have derived most of the information in this section.

 

Differences Between Kelpies and Border Collies

 

Eye -- Yes, Kelpies have eye, sometimes too much of it, and in that sense work much like Border Collies. They can hold a line and are an excellent driving dog. However, hanging up on the outrun can be a problem, as I have been discovering with Toby far too frequently lately. A propensity to get too wide is certainly a hazard as well, which I would regard as a consequence of correcting this behaviour or attempting to square a flank too much or too early.

 

Power, or Presence -- A tough concept at the best of times. Nonetheless, I would describe Toby's style as "quiet, confident control", to quote Scott Lithgow (in another context.) He has shown a satisfying ability to settle difficult or flighty stock and has never had to bite a sheep to move her, although he will fling himself at a challenging ewe's head, snapping his teeth at her nose if necessary. I call this technique of his the "Snapping Turtle". He's done it since he was a four month old pup trying to move my sheep through heavy snow. More importantly, sheep like him. For example, while he failed to qualify at the Bluegrass, he turned in a creditable showing against some pretty stiff competition on the wonderful Texas range ewes they run there and in general shines on tough un-broke sheep.

 

Intensity -- Here's where the Kelpie takes a back seat to the Border Collie.While I am dismissive of Kelpie breeders and trainers who declare that Kelpies like to "think for themselves" and "resent attempts command their every move" and other such nonsense, there is no doubt that Kelpies cannot take training pressure like Border Collies. When I first started Toby, I would have to keep training sessions short and sweet and talk nicely to him or he would start "looking for birds." (A friend of mine dubbed him the "Ornithologist" after witnessing this behaviour.) Pressure from the sheep, on the other hand, has never fazed him in the least.

 

Biddability -- Again, contrary to the received wisdom among Kelpie people, Kelpies are eminently trainable and responsive to handler input, although it does take longer to achieve the same level of training. Toby certainly wants to please and tries to do right; however, an excessively harsh (verbal) correction can send him off the deep end, to the point that he forgets his flanks and pretty well everything else too. Contrast this to the resilience of the Border Collie mind, which, when faced with a correction, will continue to come up with options until it hits on an acceptable solution that results in being allowed to continue to work sheep.

 

Scope -- Hey, no problem, as you would expect from a breed or in some cases a strain created to work vast mobs of sheep over enormous distances. The ability to outrun is one of the few places where a Kelpie can easily match a Border Collie. They've got the (physical) stamina for it too, one of the few instances where the hype matches the reality, in my opinion.

 

Precision -- Not a Kelpie strong point. Not because "they need to think for themselves" but because they lack the mental stamina of the Border Collie. See above. To some extent, however, I am revising my opinion, since I am seeing a much higher threshold for taking commands in Toby now that he is a little older. Perhaps when he is three he will indistinguishable from a Border Collie.

 

Style -- Here's where I find the most significant differences. None, however, need be an impediment to success on a trial field, so long as they are addressed early enough in training. Kelpies were bred to work huge mobs. Practically speaking, this has made them less than ideal to take three sheep around a trial course, since they are all too ready to wear back and forth on the fetch and would just as soon flank as walk up. Most detrimentally, a Kelpie is quite happy to 'give' to pressure, resulting in a 'banana' fetch or drive leg, (always assuming you can prevent them from breaking off and over-covering the pressure.) Therefore, in training terms, my focus has been on creating a mindset in Toby that the walk up is the default, the only sure fire way to relieve training pressure (much as a different type of dog needs to learn that the lie down is the default.) I also spend a lot of time in training ensuring that he keeps coming onto his sheep at a trot, although I may slow him down to a walk in a trial. I should say here I am indebted to Scott Glen for most of these training insights.

 

Close Work -- Kelpies rule here, hardly ever having to go in for a grip or piling sheep on top of another in the corner. Indeed, I was told by the breeder of Toby's sire, CLK Crow, who has won many cattle trials out west, that Crow never took a bite until he was over 2 years old, even on the most difficult cattle.

 

So, that's it, a brief exposition on my experience with a Kelpie. As you can probably gather from the above, I am quite confident that Kelpies in general and Toby in particular can be reasonably competitive against Border Collies in USBCHA trials and that he is more than capable of making Open. I am currently running him in Ranch while I polish his shed and look-back, both of which are coming along well. Watch for him in Open in 2006.

[Valhalla]

Andrea, thanks for all that information on the breed. I didn't know a lot of that and it was very interesting.

 

I never had any doubt that you and Toby would be competitive in Open. Did you?

[blackacre]

Hey, you read it Christine? Cool.

Well, I really tried to approach training Toby with an open mind, having never had any experience with Kelpies. However, I can say with confidence that there were several occasions when I was utterly exasperated with him and would have sold him to the first bidder. Then the bugger would turn around and do something really cool and I'd put off the decision to sell him. So yes, I had some doubts but really, he's answered them all.

A

[tucknjill]

Hey I read it too..very interesting!

[2 Devils]

I am not a herding person but I have always admired the kelpies from afar. Thanks for posting this. There was a time I thought about buying one.

 

I have an australian cattledog from a working cattle farm. I wish I would have known more about herding when she was a puppy. She may have had a chance instead of being a herding dropout...

[mjk05]

[blackacre]

I've heard about your utility and yard trials. In fact, I got Barb in Tasmania (Tassie) to post a sketch the year the Working Kelpie Nationals were held there. (Thanks again Barb.) If I can find it in archives I'll repost it here for others to see.

From what you've posted Samantha, I take it that you have no ISDS-type trials comparable to what we run in the UK and here, which I assume reflects the type of work you need your dogs to do. Can you describe how you start a dog and what a finished dog is capable of? Would you train a Kelpie and a Border Collie differently?

Andrea

[Northof49]

Originally posted by blackacre:

[QB] KELPIES: CAN THEY CUT IT?

 

there is no doubt that Kelpies cannot take training pressure like Border Collies.

_______________________________________________

Now my experience with Kelpies is exactly the opposite, but it could be because all the Kelpies that I know come from cattle lines?

 

The people that got into the Kelpies here, got them because they can take tougher training methods than Border Collies and won't quit. They kept shutting the Border Collies down, but the Kelpies don't shut down - they just keep on going.

 

The ones I am familiar with are sharper and have more bite than the Border Collie and a more aggressive working style. You have to work hard to keep them off the stock and biting when starting to train them.

 

Overall I find them a tougher dog to work with, but I do like the Kelpies.

[mjk05]

[Howdyjabo]

Originally posted by mjk05:

"To me, 3sheep trialling is a stylised "game"- it demonstrates elements of what makes dogs great working dogs, but a dog that is a successful trialler isn't always going to be a great farm dog, and a dog that doesn't set the trial world on fire could be a great working dog- does that make any sense at all :confused: "

 

I agree with you completely---

 

"I guess the yard/utility trials reflect daily work slightly better- but don't dogs in other countries work in yards in a similar way?"

 

We(for the most part) don't have the mobs to work in yards like you do. I have ever only once wished my dogs knew how to back sheep.There have been times it would have been useful with large groups of cattle but I don't see it as being practical on them

 

But I think like yours...... our "yard" work is something that doesn't take many extra steps or time; in training and exposure; to go do with your farm dog compared to ISDS type trials.

[Tassie]

Hi guys - I'm here. And yes, Samantha, I'm Kirra's boss - or maybe that should be the other way round. (BTW, we got back to sheep yesterday after a nearly 4 month break - and she hasn't forgotten! I posted that in Training discussion.)

 

Here's the National Kelpie Field trial course diagram - my version - that I saw in Tasmania a couple of years ago. I quite liked it - but again there was no driving.

Hope it shows up - it seems to have faded ????!

 

I watched a bit of a yard dog trial at the Hobart Royal Show last week - all Kelpies. I guess you can teach a Border Collie to back - but somehow, on my trainer's farm, we get the yard work done without the dogs needing to back. Even Kirra has learnt to be quite a good little yard dog. But then again, we're working with sheep that are somewhat used to being worked by dogs. (My trainer had a new variant on the drafting race the other day - one of her dogs who has done hardly any yard work decided to go under the sheep in the race, rather than just staying behind or going over. He got drafted off with the culls the other end! And no, he didn't get culled!)

 

Down here there seems to be a general feeling that Border Collies are better 'pulling' dogs than Kelpies - but even many of the Border Collies I've seen trialling here don't have a nice wide cast compared with my trainer's ISDS/ABCA lines.

 

The driving thing is interesting. You get guys down here who freak out when they see my trainer driving with her dogs - Eek! The dog is between the handler and the sheep! Well, yes ... that's how it works. Duh! I have learnt to drive with Kirra - not trial fashion, but just to get jobs done around the farm.

 

As I understand it, the new ANKC B courses have incorporated the ISDS idea of drive and cross-drive, but on a tiny, small arena scale, as far as I've seen. I'd think it would still involve a lot of micro-managing of the dogs. It still seems to me a bit like the difference between dressage, and cross-country in the horse world.

 

There does seem to be a feeling that the prevalence of four-wheelers (and even helicopter mustering on the huge stations) has significantly affected the mustering work of the dogs. Even on my trainer's small (800 acre) property, she finds a considerable difference between how she works with the dogs when she's on the 4-wheeler and when she's on foot.

[mjk05]

[Carson Crazies]

I'm curious, what is the purpose of backing? When you say backing, you're talking about the dog being up on the sheeps' backs, yes? What is the result of this?

[Pipedream Farm]

Laura,

 

Imagine sheep packed into a chase or chute too tight for a dog to get through and too many for the dog to have any influence on the lead sheep while standing behind the last sheep. How to you move the lead sheep along?

 

Mark

[blackacre]

Laura, I'll let one of the Aussies answer your backing question, since there's not a lot of call for it in North America, or perhaps its just a cultural prejudice.

Thanks for the sketch Barb, and great pics Samantha. I'm not trying to be snotty, but I think both demonstrate that while utility and even three sheep trials in Australia require a certain level of ability and training in a dog, they do not begin to test or showcase the scope, finesse and power required from a dog running an Open course in a high class ISDS style trial. In fact, when the Australians received an invitation to the World Trial this year they were quick to acknowledge that they had a lot of work to do to get ready for it. I'm not sure how they fared except that I know none of them even made the first cut. Hats off to them for giving it a go mind you.

A

[mjk05]

[mjk05]

[Carson Crazies]

Ahhh, I get it! Thanks for explaining it to this noob.

[Sparty]

Do they ever use merino sheep in the US for trials? I was told they are good flockers but drive like crap?

 

there is a fair amount of preferance in the warmer areas for kelpies or kelpiexBC as BC are known for disappearing for a swim as they overheat a lot quicker.

 

I would like to hear from some Kiwi's too some of the things they do are amazing!

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

The Ramboullet (never can spell that), much used in the range ewe cross, is based on old merino stock. They've grown enough apart that few comparisions can be drawn between them. For them, good flocking abilities actually mean that they are comfortable with allowing long physical distances to develop between them as they walk along foraging - or when predatory pressures are put on them.

[Sue R]

Samantha - May I use some of your fabulous photos above for our program on stockdogs that we are giving at the local KC (now postponed to Jan or Feb due to scheduling conflicts there)?

 

I have gotten a few nice working Kelpie pictures from kind folks over here, but nothing that shows the type of close work that your photos show.

 

By the way, this has been such a wonderful thread! Thanks for starting it, Andrea! See you at the Bluegrass in May?

[zenotri]

I've enjoyed reading this thread as well. It is a discussion that I hear very regularly over here & always interesting to hear people talk of the differences.

 

Here are a couple of pics I have taken of my friends' kelpies working:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[mjk05]

[Sue R]

Thanks, Samantha - there are a number of them I would like to use.

 

Vickie - May I get permission to use some of your photos here for my program?

[blackacre]

Ooooo, if that's an Avenpart Kelpie I want one. Nice.

Tell me more about how the discussion goes in your neck of the woods Vickie.

Samantha, I think you must be right, I must have been thinking of the New Zealanders, whose team picture appeared on the Worlds website or maybe the ISDS website. You guys all look alike in those hats eh?

A