new question about ABCA/CBCA registration

[laurie etc]

Eileen (or anybody familiar with Canadian herding dogs), maybe you can shed some light on this...

Recently, an agility friend mentioned that she was looking into a pup from an ABCA/CBCA registered dog that went back to herding and conformation lines. When she showed me the "sitstay.com" generated pedigree online, I was shocked to see some Australian show dog lines in the pedigree along with some prominent ABCA herding dogs, and some prominent Canadian herding lines. I told her that I couldn't believe the dog was actually ABCA registered, but she assured me he was. So, I looked up the CBCA registration requirements online. Does ABCA accept "Section B" Canadian dogs for registration? Is this separation between A dogs and B dogs a new thing? I was always under the impression that the CKC did not recognize Border Collies at the request of the CBCA because of strong feelings against breeding for conformation. But by allowing a division of registration for conformation-bred dogs, and allowing "upgrading" by testing, doesn't that compromise the integrity of the working gene pool? What is ABCA's stance on this?

 

Here's a quote from the CBCA website...

 

"14.4 CLASSES

Dogs not previously registered shall be designated Section A or Section B according to the Canadian Border Collie Association Class of the sire and Dam or the Class of the original registry of the Sire and Dam. Section A shall comprise animals where both parents are Section A. Section B shall comprise animals where either parent is Section B.

 

Dogs previously registered will be assigned the Section of the original registry.

 

Initially, the following registries are recognized by the Association. Other registries will be considered by the Board on appeal.

 

SECTION A REGISTRIES

 

(a) International Sheepdog Society of Great Britain;

( American International Border Collie Registry, Inc.;

© American Border Collie Association;

(d) North American Sheep Dog Society.

SECTION B REGISTRIES

 

(a) United Kingdom Kennel Club;

( American Kennel Club;

© Australian Kennel Club

14.4A RECLASSIFICATION ON MERIT

A dog may be reclassified from Section B to Section A on sufficient proof of herding ability.

 

Herding Ability shall be established by the dog placing in the top ten of three Open Class Sheepdog trials each with a gather of not less than 250 yards and entries of more than 20 dogs. Each trial must be under a different judge. Trials will be sanctioned at the discretion of a committee.

 

Alternatively, the Directors may appoint a committee of three to asses the herding ability of the dog. The test shall take place at a venue established by the committee but not at the home farm of the dog or on its usual stock. The dog must demonstrate competence in the following elements: a gather of not less than 300 yards and a drive of not less than 100 yards. Committee members shall receive an honorarium to be established by the Board and to be paid by the petitioner. "

[blackacre]

Laurie,

I believe the CBCA was obliged to accommodate conformation-bred and registered border collies because the Animal Pedigree Act specifies that there can only be one registry for a breed in Canada and the CBCA is it.

A

[laurie etc]

Wow- That's more like having a T-Rex in the room playing darts instead of an elephant, eh? (see some post maybe a zillion pages ago for the reference...)

Really - The government regulates who you register your dog with? :eek:

[Eileen Stein]

Andrea is right (of course ). The Animal Pedigree Act in Canada provides that there can be only one registry for a breed in Canada. There was actually a vote of border collie owners as to whether that registry should be the Canadian Kennel Club or the Canadian Border Collie Association. The CBCA won (just as the ABCA would have won over the AKC had there been such a vote in the US). The CKC has been pouting ever since, and refused thereafter to let border collies compete in obedience.

 

Because the CBCA has to register all border collies, they set up two categories of registration: Section A for dogs from working registries and their offspring, and Section B for all others. To the best of my knowledge, there is virtually no movement from Section B to Section A, even though there is a sort of registration-on-merit-type procedure by which it could happen. Also to the best of my knowledge, the ABCA accepts registration of border collies only from Section A, but after reading your post, Laurie, I will make it a point to check on that and report back. If you're comfortable doing so, you can email me the name of the dog in question (eileen@bordercollie.org), but I will look into it in any case.

[Jodi]

Eileen -

 

I know the topic of the ABCA doing something similar as the CBCA's system was addressed on this board (or somewhere) at one point. Do you think it might be worth re-addressing now that the AKC's books are open indefinitely? Maybe with different parameters? I haven't thought about it much yet, so if I come up with a somewhat intelligent idea (ha!), I'll let you know. Maybe it (whatever "it" is) could be offered as an alternative to banning dual registration altogether for those that are opposed.

 

Jodi

[Katelynn & Gang]

I do not believe we would want to do what the CBCA has done. They only did it because they had to do so by law.

 

If something is going to be done to stop AKC it NEEDS to be banning dual registration indefinitely.

 

If not, we will never keep our working breed fully safe.

 

Katelynn

[Jodi]

I'm with you, Katelynn. I was just thinking out loud, because I know a full ban on dual registration has been shot down by the ABCA board in the past. Just trying to find a viable option that could be offered up in the event a full ban continues to be shot down.

 

Jodi

[Katelynn & Gang]

Jodi, I thought of that seconds after I posted.

 

What is your idea? I'd love to hear it.

 

Katelynn

[Jodi]

Katelynn -

 

Here's a clip from my first post: "if I come up with a somewhat intelligent idea (ha!), I'll let you know." This may take a while! :eek:

 

Jodi

[Katelynn & Gang]

lol Well you work on it and post it when its ready!

 

Katelynn

[blackacre]

Aw shucks, Eileen.

Originally posted by laurie etc:

Really - The government regulates who you register your dog with? :eek:

Laurie,

It's a good thing. The effect is that we control the registry, at least, and the CKC is precluded from registering border collies. Unfortunately, sport/conformation motivated Canadian breeders just dual register their dogs with AKC if they want to sell to that market, and lots do.

And, of course, it makes sense from a legal and practical standpoint, since a multiplicity of registries results in a multiplicity of breed standards, which eventually results in a bunch of quite distinct groups of animals that are quite different but have the same name and are supposedly the same thing (sound familiar?)

A

[Eileen Stein]

Okay, Laurie, I did look into it, and the ABCA only accepts dogs from Section A of the CBCA. The papers clearly show whether the dog is Section A or Section B, and Patty says she can't remember ever even getting an application to register a Section B dog. So unless there was some glaring blunder, I don't see how the dog you asked about could have been ABCA registered.

 

>

 

Jodi, actually our present policy is better than that, in that we simply won't register dogs based on their being registered with a Kennel Club. So the dogs that the CBCA admits for Section B registration wouldn't be admitted at all by the ABCA.

[astraea]

the ABCA only accepts dogs from Section A of the CBCA. The papers clearly show whether the dog is Section A or Section B

Eileen,

I am a novice with two working-bred border collies registered with CBCA. I got out my dogs' papers to study them, and there is no designation on them as section A. Perhaps section A is "understood" and only section B is marked? I don't know about that, only that there is no designation that I could find on their registration papers.

[Katelynn & Gang]

Margaret,

 

How old are the dogs papers?

 

I think the Section A & B thing is new? Maybe? lol

 

Katelynn

[Northof49]

The Section "A" and "B" registration for the Canadian Border Collie Association has been around since it was approved as the registry for Border Collies in Canada by Agriculture Canada.

 

I don't know how many Border Collies are registered as Section B dogs with CBCA, but it would be very very few. There is one breeder in Alberta that breeds only Australian lines, and shows in conformation in the States, so I doubt she registers with CBCA, but she possibly could. There are a couple of breeders in Ontario that are combining some "Australian lines" with their North American lines and one person in Winnipeg that has a bitch she has bred and had one litter out of. That bitch is 50% Australian lines. I have also received a couple of pedigrees out of Quebec that have U.K. show lines in them, but again, that is only a couple of kennels.

 

There just isn't any interest in the "show lines" in Canada as there is no conformation showing up here - thank goodness.

[Northof49]

Originally posted by laurie etc:

Wow- That's more like having a T-Rex in the room playing darts instead of an elephant, eh? (see some post maybe a zillion pages ago for the reference...)

Really - The government regulates who you register your dog with? :eek:

In Canada, the registration of any animal as purebred in Canada (from cattle, to sheep, to pigs, to dogs, cats, guinea pigs etc etc) is governed by the Animal Pedigree Act in Canada. There are actually some safeguards built into the Act for the Purchasers of such animals. For example, if I sell you a Border Collie as purebred I must provide you with the registration papers within 6 months of purchase. In addition, I cannot charge you for the registration papers,i.e. $400.00 without papers and $800.00 with papers - that is illegal.

 

As well the entire litter must be registered, I cannot pick and choose which pups will be registered. The litter is registered at birth under my name as the breeder, the puppies must be identified either by tatoo or microchip prior to leaving my property by law, and then I transfer the papers from my name into the name of the Purchaser, all at my own expense. The transfer of ownership must be effected within six months of purchase.

[Eileen Stein]

I wrote:

 

>

 

Then Margaret wrote:

 

>

 

That's about the size of it. Section A is considered the normal registry -- a Section A certificate has no designation marking it as "special." It contains a 4-generation pedigree, as the ABCA papers do. The "B" registration is on legal size grey stock and says "Section B" in the middle of the heading, and it only displays 2 generations (parents and grandparents). Also, "B" registry registration numbers all follow a format of "CBCA B" followed by a number starting at 5 million. So a typical number might be "CBCA B 5000149," whereas A registry numbers do not have the "B" and started counting from 1 - so a typical number might be "CBCA 299."

 

Hope that's clear.

[airbear]

Originally posted by astraea:

I am a novice with two working-bred border collies registered with CBCA. I got out my dogs' papers to study them, and there is no designation on them as section A.

Your dogs would never be confused with B dogs, Margaret. First of all, Kane doesn't have enough white. And his ears! A bit of plaster would help those lugs tip just so.

 

Paige errs on the side of too much white. Oh, and she's too small, too muscular, and too keen. I better take her off your hands.

 

Lou's number is plain old CBCA 2263. I don't think there's much danger of finding a B dog in his pedigree. Split-face, freckles, tail nowhere close to sweeping the ground, and the dog has a head the size of a watermelon, poor fella.

[astraea]

Thanks, Eileen, for the information. I thought that it must have been something like that.

 

Kristi: Kane & Paige send greetings to their cousin Lou!

 

Margaret,

Kane CBCA 1520

Paige CBCA 3059

Boomer - Aussie who would certainly be a "section B" if he was a BC