Shawna Posted December 18, 2002 Report Share Posted December 18, 2002 "Actually northern breeds are still being bred to pull sleds, some for recreations..some for work,.." Quick note - the northern breeds that are still bred for work are very unlike the dogs you see bred by the show people. The people who still use these breeds for their intended purpose wouldn't touch a non-working bred dog because they are useless as far as the original purpose goes. This info comes from people I know who really use their Siberians and Malamutes for racing and pulling in competitions all over Canada and in the US as well. When talking to a well know breeder of running Sibes, she said that people who want a real pulling/running dog should have nothing to do with the show lines, they are weak and slow. The show lines don't even resemble the racing Sibes in appearance. The are basically two different breeds, one to look at and one that can still do what it was bred for. This is precisely why the border collie should only be bred by those who actually use the dogs and know what they are doing. Culling, as Inci pointed out, is, by most people, done by spaying and neutering. It is very important to keep the working ability strong. If nobody culled the dogs would soon become useless companions - like what the AKC dogs are. They cull but for the wrong reasons, they want a "prettier" dog and that is exactly what they are getting, pretty - pretty useless. "Handsome is as handsome does", I think when you go to that trial you'll see the most beautiful bunch of dogs you may have ever seen, regardless of their appearance. About the cockatoo - I spend fifty percent of my time at my mothers. I have three border collies. she has one. She also has four cockatiels, two love birds and a multitude of budgies. The collies never bother them in the least. Birds have gotten out on more than one occassion and the dogs know that they are not to touch them, period. Of the nine dogs we have between us, the only ones we trust are the collies. This isn't to say there aren't some out there who would like a bird lunch, just to show that they can be very compatible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eileen Stein Posted December 18, 2002 Report Share Posted December 18, 2002 Just for clarification, when we say "a correctly-bred Border Collie" we mean one bred for herding ability. A working herding dog has to be stable and trustworthy, among many other things, so that is part of breeding for herding. Breeding for "well-roundedness" as a goal in itself is something that makes most traditional border collie folks queasy. Also for clarification, most of us who believe a border collie should only be bred for herding ability don't object to them being placed in non-herding homes or used for activities other than herding. It's breeding for anything other than herding ability that causes the breed to deteriorate. Just out of curiosity, how do you know that the rescue dogs you saw were actually bred for herding? I'm glad you're planning to go to a trial. You can find a listing of upcoming trials at http://www.usbcha.com/upcomingtrials.htm . I think you'll enjoy it and find it very interesting. You won't see any of the dogs being aggressive toward their handlers, that's for sure! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest KillerH Posted December 18, 2002 Report Share Posted December 18, 2002 "If this farms dogs are people aggressive..." One thing to keep in mind is that just because a dog on its home territorry is barking(even aggressively) does NOT mean it has a genetically bad temperment. My dogs are very protective of our property. They have been raised in isolation and I don't encourage them to get friendly with strangers. Take them away from home territory(that includes my truck) and they could care less about you. The same genetics raised in a different environment have been very social animals. A better judge of genetic temperments would be to get a complete list of a previous litter(or two) buyers and ask. Just because I have little interest in developing social butterflies out of my personal dogs does NOT mean that they have genetically bad temperments. I don't appreciate people or dog aggessive dogs either. They are a pain to be around. But protective(to a point) is just fine with me. Karen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyrasmom Posted December 18, 2002 Report Share Posted December 18, 2002 did you ask where the other pups were heading? I'll bet not. Don't assume what you don't know...as it was there were two pups...from different litters. Both pups are 8 months old and I don't buy into the "cute little puppy syndrome" nor would I buy from someone advertising Christmas puppies. And for the record...culling and spaying and neutering are two different things. I don't expect anyone to sugarcoat anything...but also don't assume to know what I think or don't think. Maria [This message has been edited by Kyrasmom (edited 12-18-2002).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shawna Posted December 18, 2002 Report Share Posted December 18, 2002 Culling simply means to remove from a breeding program. How the person chooses to do that is up to them. Most dog people choose to cull by spaying and neutering. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyrasmom Posted December 18, 2002 Report Share Posted December 18, 2002 Just out of curiosity, how do you know that the rescue dogs you saw were actually bred for herding I don't mean to sound harpy but I've not said I have anything against dogs bred for herding...I simply said that the dogs I met in rescue were people aggressive (not home protective...I know the difference). So I looked for a breeder. I never once said that I didn't want a dog that wasn't bred for herding...I simply said I don't have sheep and my dogs seem to enjoy playing with the tennis ball. Grace seems to want to herd...is she good at it? Who knows...maybe if I find a decent trainer in the area I'll find out...if not I'll channel her energy into sports. Some of you think these dogs shouldn't have been bred..so be it..you have a right to your opinion (and I even see the logic) BUT I don't necessarily agree with everything. As I mentioned, I had a Samoyed who never pulled a sled even though she was from working lines. I also dispise the Iditarod...and rodeos...and to be completely honest...breeding any animal only for conformation HOWEVER I'll never agree that the only person who should have a BC is one who has sheep for him to herd. I'm sorry..and I'm honestly not here to start a fire...I am honestly here to learn about these dogs and how to do best by them...but I'm not here to let anyone browbeat me about my choices or assume to know what I think. A piece of advice and not to everyone, most of you have been great and right now I'm basically reacting to one: if you want to get your message across...buy a clue..otherwise you'll just be singing to the choir. Maria [This message has been edited by Kyrasmom (edited 12-18-2002).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ikw Posted December 18, 2002 Report Share Posted December 18, 2002 >>Don't assume what you don't know...as it was there were two pups...from different litters.<< Two different breeders,eh? Geesh... ------------------ Inci Willard Clearville,PA 814-784-3414 ikw@pennswoods.net ------------------- It's better to be silent and thought the fool,than to speak and remove all doubt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyrasmom Posted December 18, 2002 Report Share Posted December 18, 2002 Sheesh....care to assume anymore? No..same breeder. Maria Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ikw Posted December 18, 2002 Report Share Posted December 18, 2002 >>>Long term committment seems a bit of an understatement, doesn't it?<<< It's not the length of the training that takes time,it is the length of time relating dog and sheep into same picture. How long does it take to master the sheep? With or without the dogs? Not everyone has the similar presence on sheep and may never get what ticks them. This alone makes herding with dogs a world apart from competitive obedience or agility. There isn't the third element (stock) in the picture. Regardless of how much one knows about starting a youngster on stock,not two starts alike. Nor do they ever finish alike if at all they'll ever get there. Talk about long,very long commitment. ------------------ Inci Willard Clearville,PA 814-784-3414 ikw@pennswoods.net ------------------- It's better to be silent and thought the fool,than to speak and remove all doubt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokjbc Posted December 18, 2002 Report Share Posted December 18, 2002 Hi Diane (Delta), Yes, that is your pup . I am glad to have her, she has already shown herself to be a very personable, clever dog and very well behaved (for a pup ). And she was very nice to spare me the "will she want sheep?" suspense. I hate when they make you wait- this one made me run trying to catch her LOL. And then she decided she was no longer my shadow around the barn, her only mission in life was to find the hole in the sheep pen. I did not know the relation between her and Vergil Hollands dog, thanks for sharing that ! Jaime Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eileen Stein Posted December 18, 2002 Report Share Posted December 18, 2002 > Besides saying the dogs you met in rescue were people aggressive, you said (or implied) that they were bred for herding and that was why they were people aggressive. For example, you wrote: > That is why I asked you what basis you had for thinking the rescue dogs you met had been bred for herding. If you just assumed it, and don't know it to be true, you might want to re-think the conclusions that assumption led you to. I'm glad you're happy with Will and Grace, and I'm glad they've found a good home. That goes without saying, and doesn't change the fact that border collies should only be bred for herding ability. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyrasmom Posted December 19, 2002 Report Share Posted December 19, 2002 I only meant that I'm sure there are unscrupulous breeders on all sides of the factions..those breeding for herding and not temperment..and those breeding solely for conformation and eliminating a very inherant trait of the dog. Either way the dog loses. I probably had the misfortune of meeting people aggressive dogs..products of either bad breeding or bad people. Then again I'm sure someone will say that any dog who herds well can't be badly bred...sigh. Anyway...despite my earlier words..I'm out of here...I want to enjoy my dogs..learn more...but not get an ulcer. Happy Holidays! Maria Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeltaBluez Tess Posted December 19, 2002 Report Share Posted December 19, 2002 Jamie >> And then she decided she was no longer my shadow around the barn, her only mission in life was to find the hole in the sheep pen. I did not know the relation between her and Vergil Hollands dog, thanks for sharing that !<<< Vergil ran Toss but Toss is owned by Gina Kerwin. (as far as I know) Moss (ABCA 41852) is the sire of Toss, Quinn and Libbi. Sire to Moss is Goligher Glen, the Welsh Driving Champion or something like that. Also Glen placed 3rd in the Wales Nationals, 2 yrs ago I think. All of the dogs are very personable and will keep you on your toes. I am glad to hear you got the pup. Diane Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shawna Posted December 19, 2002 Report Share Posted December 19, 2002 Are we still talking sport here, or are we talking herding as a job, a real job not a hobby? If we're talking about sports then we have to look at herding as a sport as well. Inci said that very few dogs start alike if ever. This has nothing to do with the what your training for and everything to do with the individual personality of the dog. It doesn't matter what sport your in or what the discipline of your training very few dogs will start alike, very few will finish alike. Sure when it comes to the end performance it all appears to be the same routine but then so does the herding trial. Every dog might run the same pattern but they will do it with their own style and their own determination and their own level of whether or not they really want to do it your way today. This applies to all sports and all dogs. Now we can discuss the addition of sheep. Sure the trial dog learns the hows and wherefores of moving the sheep where you want when you want how you want. Great! The agility dog learns how to move around the obstacles at break neck speed while keeping one eye on the handler as they call out/point out which obstacle to take next and what direction to hit it at. Sounds easy doesn't it - if it does, you haven't put in enough time trying to take a dog to that level. Now the point was raised that the handler has to know sheep as well. Good point. As a handler you also have to learn the equiptment and how to bring out the best in your dog, and although it may not move around on you while your out there, it's not always in the same place and pattern. This requires a good working relationship with your dog. It needs to trust and listen to your decision and you need to be able to trust the dog to take the command the way it needs to be done. I was told by someone who has done a lot of trialing (and winning at open level) that they have seen dogs with very little stock sense win (not just in the bottom levels either) for the simple reason that the handler had good stock sense and the dog took commands well. There is no way you could take a mediocre dog and make it win the high levels of agilty just because it was good with commands. If the dog doesn't have talent, it's only a game not a sport. Okay, if we are talking herding as a real job, not a hobby, then we have to consider real work outside the sport venues. Look at the SAR dogs - how much training goes into them, a lifetime! These people never stop training, they can't afford to. Now add the unpredictable factor, sheep are far more prdictable than what some of these people and their dogs face. You want to talk partners, how about following your dog into some forested area that you may have never been in in your life, and trusting him implicitly to lead you in the right direction as he follows a scent cone - something that you have no possible way of knowing where it is or if your dog is right. You just trust him. I'll guarantee you that not all SAR dogs start the same and not all finish the same, if they finish at all. It's an unfair statement to say that, because we have sheep involved, our training is more involved, and takes more time to finish them. I would dare say that it's not only unfair but uneducated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ikw Posted December 19, 2002 Report Share Posted December 19, 2002 Shawna, We just finished weighting 833 lambs with the help of 3 dogs. We started yesterday morning,took breaks in between,called it off for the night and finished what was left this morning starting around 6 a.m. Have you seen so many lambs before? Have you seeen that many mama's who are so angry to dogs for stealing their lambs? One small slip-up on handler or dog's part means losing anywhere between 15 minutes to an hour of work load. I let everyone believe and do what's best for their dogs,because deep down I know what they are meant to be and I'll continue to focus on that venue. I've said this before and I'll say it again,I'll always find the true workers and make a decent working dogs out of them,if not there's always the spay/neuter route to take them off the gene pool forever. Ignorant I may be to other sports,these dogs were not made for those purposes.They may excel at it,but the roots still goes back to where I wish to use them. Getting them away from their main purposes which is working stock and breeding them for purposes anything other their working stock is a blasphemous. What everyone wishes to do with their pups is their business not mine,I know several people who breeds and places their pups in very good homes involving other sports but I also don't hear them telling the world working dogs are major nuisances because they tend to be agressive or some other nonsense along those lines. ------------------ Inci Willard Clearville,PA 814-784-3414 ikw@pennswoods.net ------------------- It's better to be silent and thought the fool,than to speak and remove all doubt. [This message has been edited by ikw (edited 12-19-2002).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shawna Posted December 19, 2002 Report Share Posted December 19, 2002 833 lambs, congratulations, you must be exhausted. My uncle had a very large flock of sheep when I was a kid, I know he put in a great deal of effort. Even during kidding season with our herd of goats, though not nearly so many, a few rough nights and we'd be trashed. I'm so glad you will only breed dogs for working that's terrific, I wouldn't want it any other way. It makes me angry as well when I see people breeding the dogs for other purposes, they are ruining the breed. But that's not what we were discussing here. We were discussing training in the different sports and the effort involved. Just because people don't/can't herd doensn't mean that they don't put in a great deal of effort in the training that they do. That is all I was stating. Please keep on doing what your doing, it's people like you that keep the breed what it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ikw Posted December 19, 2002 Report Share Posted December 19, 2002 Shawna, We actually have over 1,200 on the ground as of today. We weigthed only those who were larger to get some idea about their growhtiness and possibly adjust their creep feeds. It could get tiring but I've got the best help,2 young fellows hailing from Nebraska and Utah,brothers, who are very knowlegable on stock and don't mind the dust,noise and the hours. No more breeding for Inci. Maybe once more if I could line up the potential handlers first. ------------------ Inci Willard Clearville,PA 814-784-3414 ikw@pennswoods.net ------------------- It's better to be silent and thought the fool,than to speak and remove all doubt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amy Posted December 19, 2002 Report Share Posted December 19, 2002 Inci, All I can say girl is lucky for you I don't live closer..or you would of waken to see me and my dog on your doorstep ready to help out (or hinder). The further I get in to this the more amazed I am at these dogs...To have the chance to see these dogs do "real work" must be awesome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fosher Posted December 19, 2002 Report Share Posted December 19, 2002 Shawna writes: Sure when it comes to the end performance it all appears to be the same routine but then so does the herding trial. Only to the untrained eye.There's a world of difference between the dog that brings the sheep on a dead straight line down the field as if they were on rails and the dog that needs encouragement and handling to have the same result. The dog that reads the lead ewe's intentions at the pen and shuffles a half-step to the side to counter it before the ewe herself is even sure she's going to make the move will always stand out. ------------------ Bill Fosher Surry, NH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ccnnc Posted December 19, 2002 Report Share Posted December 19, 2002 Just want to reinforce Bill's post. In agility there are only two variables -- the handler and the dog. The course never changes during the competition. Working stock ads at least one variable -- the lead sheep -- and depending on your draw, perhaps more. And, even if the sheep are kept in working groups, rare in USBCHA trials, the time of day, changes in weather, how the sheep were handled in previous runs, all impact how the sheep respond to being on the field for your run. On top of this, the dog is working at a distance, something never seen in agility. The good dog varies pace and pressure on his own. Lord, was it a joy for me the first time I realized that my Misty was where she needed to be even though it didn't look right to my novice eyes. There is simply no analogue between agility and stock trials. That's probably true for most, if not all, other dog activities. Now to the earlier part of this thread, Maria's comments about the aggressive dogs she saw. Most good sized trials have 80-100 dogs entered, Many handlers bring more than they're running, so there could be an additional 50 or more dogs at the trial site. Do we hear these dogs barking? Do we have problems with more than the occasional fight? Do we hear about one of these dogs attacking people? Can't say never, but it's very rare. Gotta say sheepdog trial dogs are about as level headed and stable as a dog can be. Now, of course, not sure I can say the same for the handlers! Colin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ikw Posted December 19, 2002 Report Share Posted December 19, 2002 >>To have the chance to see these dogs do "real work" must be awesome.<< Amy, You'd be surprised how little we have a use for dogs in every day events, lambing indoors. If we were pasture lambing,then it would be a real treat for the dogs. I keep them with me but most days,they just sit and wait in the truck. No matter how well trained or behaved dogs they maybe,lambing is not the time or the place to have dogs hanging around. The first two weeks,they were working around the clock. We had to teach sheep to go get their water about half a mile away while they absolutely refused to leave the feeding grounds,then screamed their heads off for water. Sheep being sheep,they thought the minute they stepped out,food may appear and the rest will chow it down. It was a zoo. You get half who tries to beat the dog back to the feeding troughs,you have other half who walks around dazed,others (single carriers) which were separated constantly calling out to the twinners. Oy Ve! The pole barn is wide and very long,we set 4 troughs all along the length of it. Trying to get them out into the watering path (walkway) was too comical for about few days. Especially when Ana didn't listen or heard when I asked her to stop and lost her underneath them. Good thing she knows how to jump on top of sheep and walk across(yard dog style but I call her junkyard dog). I had to learn and relearn for days for the exact spot to stop each 3 dogs and basically let them escape through the huge door and keep the dog in half,tiny flanks to keep 10,20 or 50 or more from trying to beat the dog and run back to the feeders. I'll write about the stupid things sheep does along the half mile walkway for the water,which was mainly for exercise and the only area where large numbers could be watered without knocking or trying to jump over each other. Sheep will be sheep,it's not over yet and I'm sure I've yet to see what other stupid things they'll come up with in the next 25 more days left to lamb. Don't want to go into what lambs do....I'm glad their mama's got few brain cells,otherwise these creatures,cute as they may be,cannot survive an hour on their own.Collectively,they (lambs) lose that one brain cell in their heads faster than anything. Other than that,all we do is change fences,feeding troughs,mark/tag lambs,vaccinate lambs, check out mamas,feed,more feed,lot of feed. All the boring stuff. But you're more welcome to come up and help. I'll send the bus/plane ticket. Bring warm clothes. Off to meet my pillow now. ------------------ Inci Willard Clearville,PA 814-784-3414 ikw@pennswoods.net ------------------- It's better to be silent and thought the fool,than to speak and remove all doubt. [This message has been edited by ikw (edited 12-19-2002).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fosher Posted December 20, 2002 Report Share Posted December 20, 2002 Amy, I have at least a little dog work every day. My sheep are wintering outdoors on limit-fed round bales of silage. That means that every day I have to push the flock back into a corner of the 12-acre field that we're using for winter ground and hold them there while I drive the tractor in with the first round bale and unroll it so that they don't trample and kill each other trying to get at the feed. Then, every week or so, I'm sorting off loads of lambs to send to market. This means gathering up the sheep and lambs into the handling equipment and keeping them flowing through it as I sort off the lambs. Sometime in the next two weeks I have to do a very accurate inventory for tax purposes. So as long as you're bundling up and heading north, you could just keep on coming to where it's really cold (not wussy Pennsylvania cold -- Inci doesn't have enough meat on her bones to survive up here) and give your dogs all kinds of real work. ------------------ Bill Fosher Surry, NH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ikw Posted December 20, 2002 Report Share Posted December 20, 2002 Lambs,Bill F.? Passing muttons as lambs,eh? Ha! that's what you'll get for calling me a skinny b**t. Can I ship couple of retards (that wouldn't be me,though) your way to work them? I'm willing to pay. ------------------ Inci Willard Clearville,PA 814-784-3414 ikw@pennswoods.net ------------------- It's better to be silent and thought the fool,than to speak and remove all doubt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shawna Posted December 20, 2002 Report Share Posted December 20, 2002 Bill F and Colin, I understand what you are saying, this isn't exactly what I meant. My point was supposed to be that by the time the dogs are trained (for any sport) the end result all appears the same (within each sport), the running of the same pattern. You can't tell by looking what all effort went into each dog or how each dog needed to be handled differently during it's training. My comment on the pattern of the agility equitment was to say that the dog can't, unlike competetive obedience (beginning level, companion dog title) just learn a simple walking pattern, but has to be able to take commands quickly because things change radically from course to course (as far as the pattern goes). You are right in that you can't compare the two sports as far as the sport itself goes. I was meaning to compare the training of the dog for the sport (as in time, energy, and commitment). Those who reach the higher levels of any sport didn't get there on a whim and a few minutes in the back yard. I hope this is more clear,I'm running on an avererage of five hours of sleep a night for nearly a week now and my brain is rapidly turning to mush. [This message has been edited by Shawna (edited 12-20-2002).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fosher Posted December 20, 2002 Report Share Posted December 20, 2002 Hi Inci, Nothing in the lamb group is over 10 months old, most are more like 6 to 7 months. Some of them make you look fat, though. Not a good year for the lambs. Seems I remember someone up here in mid-October whining about how cold she was. That was back when it was actually pretty mild. Sure, we had one poor day with cold rain, a high wind, and a little sleet mixed in, but nothing really cold. I have too many dogs here now to work between my own and Chris's -- sorry I can't help you out. ------------------ Bill Fosher Surry, NH [This message has been edited by Bill Fosher (edited 12-20-2002).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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