Guest PrairieFire Posted December 14, 2002 Report Share Posted December 14, 2002 Terry got me thinking (on another post) about one of the "things" involved in breeding and training traditional herding dogs...and also learning how to handle the dogs - whether for trialing, small farm, or ranching... So, you get the "best pup in the world" - you've researched the sire and the dam, watched them work, seen them at trials and on the farm...and you pick up your pup at 8 weeks of age. Now, besides teaching the little darling manners, and enjoying them as a pup, you get to wait close to a YEAR before seriously starting training. Now, assuming you DID pick the right pup, and the interest is there, and you bring the abilities along, and everything works out well with timing, and skills and, and, and... You might wait another YEAR before taking that dog onto it's first trial course. Of course, you're working at home, and training - but if the dog DOESN'T blow up at it's first couple of trials, you're probably an exception...and maybe the entire first season. So now you've got a three year old dog, that maybe ran well in the nurseries...and works well at home. So you run a year in ProNovice to season him a bit. Now the dog is 4 years old and you set foot on an Open course. Long term committment seems a bit of an understatement, doesn't it? The above, of course, assumes you're pretty good at what you are doing before you start the pup...if it's your first dog, let's say your chances of getting to the Open post are a bit reduced, and you may need to start over with another pup. Add on another 4 years. And maybe now you're getting good enough to get around a course and push the big hats a bit... Takes a certain kind of person, I think, one interested in process and development and willing to be patient and learn and grow...and maybe, when it all comes down to it, that is the telling difference between the "factions" in the Border Collie world...a basic personality difference that will never be bridgeable. ------------------ Bill Gary Kensmuir, Working Stockdog Center River Falls, WI 715.426.9877 www.kensmuir.com [This message has been edited by PrairieFire (edited 12-14-2002).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawn Bailey Posted December 14, 2002 Report Share Posted December 14, 2002 Hi Bill, I will play devils advocate for ya. So by Border Collie Factions, are you referring to the Obed, Agility and/or just conformation people? I can tell you from experience that the competitive obed and agility folks spend years on their dogs also training, growing up pups and competing. You cannot have a OTCH in a year, you may get one in a years time, but the training will take you at least 3 - 4 years maybe more. There maybe exceptions to the rule but the majority of OTCH dogs are I would guess at least 4 or 5 years old, if not 6. Showing your dog in the conformation classes takes much less time and training. A couple of good weekends with a professional handler can net you a Champion of record. Training your pup up to work sheep, something he was bred to do, is the most thrilling thing I can think of. I cannot lure him to work using food, jerk him into his sheep, command him to have more eye. I get to watch, guide, and hopefully partner up with him in what for a century his parents parents did to earn their place by the fire. I guess it is the reason I got another pup, hope springs eternal! Dawn Bailey Eatonville, WA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest PrairieFire Posted December 15, 2002 Report Share Posted December 15, 2002 Well, Dawn, the main evil I see to the Border Collie is conformance and "versatility" - both of which can be done in a fairly short time, AND IN GREAT QUANTITIES, compared to producing Open level stock dogs... ------------------ Bill Gary Kensmuir, Working Stockdog Center River Falls, WI 715.426.9877 www.kensmuir.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest PrairieFire Posted December 15, 2002 Report Share Posted December 15, 2002 Adding to that, now that I have a bit of time, is that I think we have more in common with some of the agility and obedience folks than we will ever have in common with conformance people - even the "versatility conformance" folks who hover around the edges and think certain "structure" can help define herding potential... ------------------ Bill Gary Kensmuir, Working Stockdog Center River Falls, WI 715.426.9877 www.kensmuir.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amy Posted December 15, 2002 Report Share Posted December 15, 2002 As someone that's been on both sides of the fence so to speak..I have to say that Dawn is right in so far as it does take alot of work and committement to do competitive dog sports. However..there is a big difference and that is where Bill's "basic personality difference" comes in. First competitive dog sports are mostly "mechanical training". You can pretty much succeeded with any dog if you stick at it long enough. Not so with herding. Imagine training your dog to stop at 12:00, simply won't work..why because the sheep and the land have a say in where the perfect spot to stop is. Things are ever changing in herding..the dog must think and react in a natural way in relation to the sheep..not in some robotic mode, as in competitive sports. Also we trudge onward without those "carrots" dangled in front of us..You know if there are 30 dogs in an obedience class all 30 can get legs toward their titles if they qualify. Okay so there is 30 dogs in open and your dogs ends up in 7th place..what do you get? The joy of knowing you got around an open course..Period.. Why do we do this? If you have to ask you've never had the pleasure of seeing a border collie do what it was bred for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Charles Torre Posted December 16, 2002 Report Share Posted December 16, 2002 What the hell.... "Takes a certain kind of person, I think, one interested in process and development and willing to be patient and learn and grow...and maybe, when it all comes down to it, that is the telling difference between the "factions" in the Border Collie world...a basic personality difference that will never be bridgeable." For me, personally, the key word that distinguishes the herding nazis from the rest of the Border Collie enthusiasts is ... Beauty. Many people that excel in various activities with the Border Collie are quite competitive and quite accomplished. I have seen obedience work, agility work, etc. that is truly impressive (to me, anyway). (I still don't get the conformation stuff, I must admit.) And, sure, their dogs are "beautiful" when they do this stuff. But that's not quite what I mean. While there are a lucky few who get into the herding business and find they instantly have a knack for it, and quickly become competitive thus reinforcing their interest in this art, what I think keeps the rest of us slogging along through all the years, as Bill describes, is the irresistable attraction to the beauty of the handler-dog team moving livestock, taking advantage of that magical genetic skill these dogs have. Over the last few years since I have become obsessed with this stuff, I have met many relatively accomplished dog trainers who decide they want to learn how to use their dogs for the purpose for which they were bred. Only a few seem to stick with it for the long haul, though. For some, I guess, it's just too hard to make a go of it, what with the need for access to sheep, the miles of traveling for help, etc. They quickly go back to the activities that they have done well in in the past, where the gratification of ribbons, titles, etc. is sufficiently rewarding. But the ones that somehow stick it out despite the seemingly endless journey they have in front of them seem to have fallen in love with the beauty of a dog bursting out on a huge outrun, the beauty of the dog working the knife-edge pressure that splits off the desired sheep at the shed and then moving in to carefully take control of the selected sheep, the beauty of meaningful communication between alien minds (sheep included!). Not to mention the beauty of doing something useful with a somewhat lost art in the pragmatic world of agriculture. Once one gets a taste of that beauty (to mix some more metaphors) it is hard to let it go. One tries to recreate it at every opportunity. Sure, at first one spends a lot of time chasing errant dogs and sheep, wincing as the wreck develops, eating enough humble pie to burst, etc.. But even we beginners see that occasional glint of the beauty shining through the wrecks, and bad whistles, the rain and snow.... It's addictive. Still, like most forms of art, not everyone will find it to their liking. That's ok by me. [This message has been edited by Charles Torre (edited 12-16-2002).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fosher Posted December 16, 2002 Report Share Posted December 16, 2002 I don't know about the rest of you, but I will never be distinguished by my beauty. I have a friend who frequently says of his profession (photography) "If it were easy, everyone would do it." He is fully aware of the irony in that statement -- that just about everyone does take pictures, and to the untrained eye, it does seem easy. But with photography there are family snapshots, and then there is a piece of commercial art that shows a widget to best advantage, with each slot and groove properly lit, so that the viewer knows what he or she needs to know when looking at the picture. With dogs, there are activities where titles are the goals, and then there is real work. The problem for many people is that trials look like the games they play with their dogs in other venues; indeed some organizations even put sheep and obstacles out on a field and even call it a trial. They start to want to have their accomplishments acknowledged -- translations "money" or "titles" -- when they are in the novice classes. They've come to expect it, coming as they do from other venues. What saddens me is the number of people coming into the novice classes who don't take the time to learn about the traditions of the ISDS trial, who don't understand its function, and who want their first place in novice-novice to be taken as seriously as first place in Open. These often end up being the people who are constantly running in the novice classes; buying trained dogs for thousands of dollars in hopes of placing better in pro-novice. I suppose there's no real harm -- folk are having fun with their dogs. Still, I think it's a waste of a trained dog's talent to run him on dinky courses against lackluster competition, and I hate to think that I've come to the sport in its waning years as modern needs and concerns start to crowd out the traditions. Everything changes over time, I suppose. Crusty old farts such as myself don't have to like it. We can complain, urge, remind, cajole, mentor, and flail. But in the long run, if the other factions have more people, more money, more influence, they will carry the day. Then it will be up to us to decide whether we want to continue under the new paradigm or not. And Amy, speaking as one whose best placement in open is 7th in a field of 30, I got more out of it than knowing that I could get around a course. I got to see my first Border collie, who I raised from a pup, do everything I asked and lots of things I didn't to put in a credible performance. It just so happened that there were six dogs that day that did a little better. But I got to know that it was in her; that on a good day, she could run with the big dogs and not have anything to be ashamed of. ------------------ Bill Fosher Surry, NH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyrasmom Posted December 16, 2002 Report Share Posted December 16, 2002 I don't want to stir anyting up...I'm very new...so please be kind but I just don't understand something. Not everyone has sheep for their BC's to herd and the impression I get is that getting a BC UNLESS you can let them do what they were born to do is a bad thing. Why? I probably belong in the "bad faction" as I recently brought home two pups who are just incredibly beautiful, sweet, and I'm pretty sure the male wouldn't know what to do with a herd of sheep....he's 8 months but is slightly "behind" but we love him regardless. We tried to go through rescue groups and met some of the "hardcore herders" and I have to say...it didn't go well. And I'm not a first time pet owner, I've had them all my life and every animal I've had has stayed with me to his/her death. So, in order to find the right match for us, we found a good breeder (by our standards) and bought pups who are social, prefer tennis balls to sheep, and don't look at our Cockatoo as if he's their next dinner. They'll never herd...is that so bad? I had a Samoyed for 12 years who never pulled a sled...and yet she smiled every day. Maria Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Charles Torre Posted December 16, 2002 Report Share Posted December 16, 2002 I certainly wasn't trying to imply that one should not get a Border Collie unless one is going to herd with it. I believe that the "hardcore herders" do not feel that way, either. People often get that impression on these boards, but I think that impression is erroneous. I am quite sure that a Border Collie can be very happy without herding livestock. What people *do* seem to worry about is that market pressures for the breeding of Border Collies that don't herd will destroy the breed. After all, it is the job they were bred for which makes them such unique - and useful - dogs. So, if you find a breeder who is selecting for pups who prefer balls to sheep, etc. then you are supporting breeding that, in effect, destroys the Border Collie. Keep in mind, though, that I am speaking as a relative novice; the more experienced people can be counted on to speak for themselves. (BTW, my Border Collies - I have 3 - are die-hard herding fanatics. They are also quite social, great with my kids, and a couple of them even like to chase a ball now and then. ) charlie [This message has been edited by Charles Torre (edited 12-16-2002).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest PairDogx1.5 Posted December 16, 2002 Report Share Posted December 16, 2002 Something Bill F. mentioned sort of clarified something I was trying to put into words after reading Bill G.'s original post. There are folks who, like Fosher sort of said, more or less buy their way into competitiveness in herding, at least at the lower levels, who wouldn't fit into the "faction" demonstrating the patience and commitment Bill G. was talking about. On the other hand, there are folks whose hearts are in the "right" place, who maintain their interest for many years, hoping, without ever having a chance to do anything about it. And still others who know they will never herd, but love it and remain dedicated to the working dog nonetheless. You could have a person tell you they ran in 20 trials this year, placed this and this and this, own 5 dogs with two litters on the way, own sheep... -- ...and another person tell you they've never had their dog to sheep, and these two people could be in just the opposite faction from what you would would think they were. Maria -- Stick around long enough to sort through it all, there is alot you can learn that is valuable no matter what you do with your Border Collies. And don't worry about stirring things up, that happens sometimes even when you're trying not to . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shawna Posted December 16, 2002 Report Share Posted December 16, 2002 Perhaps I'm slow and I'm missing something but I'm getting the impression that it's believed that people only work dogs in obedience or other sports (I am not talking conformation) for the ribbon at the end of the day. Unless I'm the only person in the world who does obedience for the simple pleasure of spending time with my dog, then it's not true. I have done the obedience to the point where I could have trialed two of my dogs but unfortunatly those ones died from genetic problems before I could get them there. The rest of my dogs I did obedience with just because we were both having fun together. Perhaps it's hard for those who haven't been there to understand but there is beauty also in working with a dog that is delighting in following commands as fast as it can. A dog that hasn't been beaten into obeying but is genuinely thrilled with the prospect of doing all that you ask and wanting to learn more. I had a dog like that(several actually but for now I'll just talk about her). We worked for hours everyday just because we wanted to. There was no carrot, no ribbon, no prize at all. She couldn't have competed if I wanted to, she was a mix. Her delight was simply to be with me. We were no less a partnership than the collie on the field with the shepherd. Don't get me wrong I know the difference in the training. What I'm saying is that she WANTED to do whatever I asked her to do, she wasn't a slave or a robot. I have seen many dogs beaten into obeying hard and rigid commands, it's so sad to see. At the same time I saw a collie at a trial that was doing well one day except he gripped near the end. The next day the dog was a nervous wreck, scared to make a mistake, cowering and refusing to come up on the sheep. Later I learned he had been taken out and "worked", this included at least one severe beating for gripping. So if commitment to your dog and effort and love just for the joy of doing what your doing is the topic, then there are the same types of people on both sides of the camp. Just because someone does a sport over herding doesn't mean that they are into it for the fast payoff. [This message has been edited by Shawna (edited 12-16-2002).] [This message has been edited by Shawna (edited 12-16-2002).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tassie Posted December 16, 2002 Report Share Posted December 16, 2002 This is an interesting and thought-provoking thread. Many good points made all round ? and it?s getting down to differences being at least in part about the relationship between handler and dog, and the appreciation of the dog?s efforts ? whatever the field. I?d agree that a BC herding for real is the ultimate ? but for many that?s just not a realistic option. As I?ve said elsewhere, the closest I can get to that is tracking, where I?m simply harnessing the dog?s instincts and natural abilities, and learning to work with him and try to bring out the best in him in an area where he knows more than I do. There is a real awesome ?beauty? in being on the other end of a 10 metre tracking lead behind a dog who really knows what he is doing, and trusting him that he is following the track, and not going off after a wallaby ? and in watching him circle and try really hard to work a turn, keeping on trying until eventually he is sure enough to take off along the next leg ? (and then there?s the joy of his finding a tracklayer?s article, and then the tracklayer!) There is so much in what Shawna says too about the reasons for doing obedience, agility etc. There are certainly plenty of ?pothunters? out there (in many breeds), and there are dogs that don?t dare make a mistake. But there are also plenty of handlers who like Shawna (and I hope me) who do the sports because it is a great way of spending productive time with your dog, enjoying it when you both get it right, and figuring out what went wrong and how you both can fix it if things don?t go right ? but basically trying all the time to make sure the dog is having fun. As I?ve said before, my previous BC was still competing in Utility class in obedience at age 12 ? and happily spinning round and barking between exercises to tell me what a good boy he was! And he would still pull on his lead to get to the ring. We?d been in that class for 6 years (!) ? with only one pass and quite a few near misses, as well as some disasters ? but he didn?t care, and I didn?t care as long as he was having fun. I guess you could say I was in it for the long haul. ------------------ Barb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fosher Posted December 17, 2002 Report Share Posted December 17, 2002 Maria, When you wrote: So, in order to find the right match for us, we found a good breeder (by our standards) and bought pups who are social, prefer tennis balls to sheep, and don't look at our Cockatoo as if he's their next dinner. You nailed the crux of the problem. You have just sent an economic message to the breeder of that litter (and to the other breeders and would-be breeders of Border collies who are out there) that dogs that are bred for pet qualities will sell. Border collies should be bred to herd. Period. That doesn't mean that all of them will, any more than any show ring breed will produce only champions. There are a few things that I don't understand about the pet market for Border collies, and I'm not trying to be mean or off-putting here; I'd really like to try to understand it. First of all, why does anyone want a purebred dog for a pet? Why not take a puppy from the pound? Do you think you're getting a better dog when you buy a purebred? Are you concerned with health guarantees? Second, having decided on a purebred dog, why do you look at a breed like the Border collie and say that you only want some of what it is, and find a breeder that's willing to breed out the traits that you think you don't want? What you've said above essentially boils down to this: you wanted a purebred dog, but you didn't like the breed that you had selected, so you found someone who was breeding dogs that aren't breeding true -- you wanted dogs that liked tennis balls more than sheep. But part of the definition of a breed is that it will breed true, so essentially you're not ending up with a purebred dog in anything other than name anyway. To me, this would be like going to a Ferrari dealer who is replacing the motors with the three cylinder deal found in the Geo Metro and accusing the other dealers of being snobs for refusing to do so. Perhaps they are snobs, but they are selling Ferraris, not a Geo with a Ferrari nameplate. Working ability, and the keeness that goes along with it, is what makes a Border collie a Border collie. When you look for pups with that working ability bred out of them, you encourage the breeding of such pups, which in turn changes the nature of the dogs. Eventually, they will not be what you want. I'm sure there are dozens of other breeds that have gone down this sorry road, but the one I'm familiar with is the Irish setter. My aunt used to keep and occasionally breed these noble hunting dogs. Their downfall was that they could be very pretty. People wanted them for pets. Breeders started breeding for coat, for low hunting drive, etc. -- things that made them good pets. Now the breed is generally so dumb that if you find a specimen that can hump your leg you've got a good one. They went from being a generally intelligent, useful dog to being a fireside decoration or fashion accessory in less than 20 years. There are those who would take the Border collie down that road, and well-meaning, caring puppy customers like you are the ones who will help them justify their actions. Bear in mind that I'm not saying I have anything against Border collies as pets. What I oppose is Border collies being bred as pets. Or for dog sports, for search and rescue, or for anything other than livestock working ability. ------------------ Bill Fosher Surry, NH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fosher Posted December 17, 2002 Report Share Posted December 17, 2002 Shawna writes: We were no less a partnership than the collie on the field with the shepherd. I'm not trying to belittle your bond with your dog, which I'm sure was light years beyond what most people experience, but I seriously doubt this is true. Here's an example. One of yesterday's tasks was to draft a trailer load of lambs to go to the market today. I had the flock corralled and the drafting race set up. For some reason, the sheep didn't want to move through the race, even though they could see that it was the avenue to freedom. Once I finally got some sheep through, they doubled back and hung on the outside of the holding pen, which encouraged the sheep inside to look to them for their freedom, rather than to the front of the pen and the drafting race. Unbidden, my two-year-old Tweed got behind those outside sheep and shifted them off the corral fence and brought them to the front of the drafting race. Suddenly the sheep in the holding pen started moving toward their mates, and within 20 minutes I had my load. That's a partnership. It's not based on obeying, but on assessing the situation and figuring out what needs to be done. He didn't do that because I'd trained him to, he did it because he knew sheep and knew what I was trying to accomplish. ------------------ Bill Fosher Surry, NH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amy Posted December 17, 2002 Report Share Posted December 17, 2002 Maria, Bill summed it up perfectly..I could never figure out why someone wants a border collie and then proceeds to try to weed out all the traits that defines a border collie. Shawna, Believe me I know where your coming from..I used to be there..So please don't be insulted..even if the titles are not the reason obedience is pursued..The training is not teaching a dog to really think. Herding as Bill pointed out is ever changing..a dog needs to think, reason, and sometimes react on its own. And Bill, your seventh place finish was exactly the point I was making..My biggest thrill to date..my first time getting my dog around a nursey course, the judge giving me the two thumbs up as I walked off the field (he knew it was our first venture out of novice)I floated for days afterwards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyrasmom Posted December 17, 2002 Report Share Posted December 17, 2002 Thanks for the thoughtful comments...and I have to say that I do understand what you're all saying and I agree to some extent...but I also feel that to exclude breeding of BC's for any reason other than sheep herding is too extreme..IMO...and potentially harmful for the breed in the long run when only select few can have them/keep them/breed them. Will they eventually go extinct? As for our selection of a BC pup over a pound puppy...I also have the pound puppies...always have....always will. But we also wanted a Border Collie, and I'm not going to apologize or feel guilty for wanting a "pure bred" dog. Border Collies are intuitive, quick learners, and eager to work with their people..and sometimes for their people. I was also remiss in not pointing out that the breeder I selected did not claim to breed the herding qualities out...Grace herds and stalks...but we don't have sheep and herding Will and Joy gets tiresome for her...so the tennis ball has her heart. I did look for a breeder who bred for temperment, the dogs I met through rescue would have tried to have my cockatoo for dinner and that to me was unacceptable. Had I found a dog through rescue who would have fit into my house...he would be here and Will and Grace would still be at with their breeder. I didn't select Will and Grace because they were "pretty", and I don't believe in breeding solely for conformation. I see so many people breeding the smaller Samoyed so that it fits in apartments and that is just unacceptable...but as I said, my Sam never pulled a sled and that was fine for both of us. So many animals were originally bred for a purpose that they are no longer bred for. Pit Bulls were originally fighting dogs, bull baiters...and look at what has come of that. On the other hand, Golden Retrievers are hunting dogs and yet make perfect therapy companions. I think, if I may, that the crux of the problem is breeding only in one direction versus having a well rounded, mentally stable, individual. Am I wrong in thinking that some BC's are bred so much for herding that they lose some of their other qualities? They become more neurotic and more aggressive towards the very people they are serving instead of keeping their inherent stability. Am I wrong in thinking that a good BC should have a stable mind? Shouldn't you be able to trust him/her implicitly? And I also agree that a Border Collie can be just as happy doing agility, or search and rescue, and that the bond between animal and trainer is pretty incredible. They need a job...don't we all. And I'm not going anywhere, I find this whole new world very interesting and educational. It just goes to prove that there are always two sides to every coin. Thanks again Maria Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted December 17, 2002 Report Share Posted December 17, 2002 "So many animals were originally bred for a purpose that they are no longer bred for. Pit Bulls were originally fighting dogs, bull baiters...and look at what has come of that. On the other hand, Golden Retrievers are hunting dogs and yet make perfect therapy companions. I think, if I may, that the crux of the problem is breeding only in one direction versus having a well rounded, mentally stable, individual." Maria, I think that most of us have a problem with using other breeds (as quoted above) as examples of why it's okay to also breed the border collie for something other than herding. The border collie still isused for its original intended purpose and the people who use them for that purpose would like to know that 100 years from now the border collie, unlike the pit bull, the average (non-field) retriever, and the samoyed, will stillbe capable of doing the work for which it was originally intended. Sadly, we ae fighting against the tide of people who want intelligent, active pets and therefore claim that breeding for a "stable" temperament is more important than saving the fundamental qualities (herding instinct and ability) that make these dogs what they are. And as for not being able to find a resuce that wouldn't eat the cockatoo, well, I have several rescues and I was able to teach each of them to leave alone all the other animals in and around my house, including fowl. I am not deriding your choice of a dog from a breeder over a rescue, but I did feel the need to point out that most dogs (they're intelligent and quick learners remember) can be taught not to harm other family pets. I'm pointing this out for the sake of anyone else who may be reading this discussion and considering adopting a rescue dog. But the real issue is the assumption that breeding only for herding ability means you'll get dogs who are socially unacceptable. That's just not true. Too bad you aren't on Sheepdog-L. There's a very interesting discussion going on right now about laid-back border collies (someone asked a question about herding lines with personalities suitable for therapy work). Apparently quite a few well-known dogs are/were also wonderful house pets when not working. This would imply that breeding strictly for herding ability does not preclude dogs with good personalities. As has been pointed out in so many discussions here before, genetic control of herding ability is extremely complex. If you start breeding for something other than or in addition to that ability then you take a huge risk of losing or diminishing that ability. I personally do not want the border collie to go the way of the other breeds who used to have a purpose but are now good for not much more than hanging out on the couch. Just my two cents. Julie [This message has been edited by juliepoudrier (edited 12-17-2002).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shawna Posted December 17, 2002 Report Share Posted December 17, 2002 Bill F and Amy, I understand what you are saying but you are talking about a dog that is bred to herd, that is what it's wired to do. I was talking about a partnership with a dog that had other reasons to exist. If you wish to discuss bred in nature now as partnership.... She was half german shepherd and had many "jobs" besides obedience. She gathered/herded kids together on the way to school (when I walked my kids to public school in the mornings) and kept a watchful eye for danger. The children loved this and so readily joined in the group when she would run ahead or behind and collect them. We also used to let the ponies out in the front yard, no fence, to eat grass. When we wanted to put them away she would gather them and drive them into the pasture - no training, no commands. She just saw what we wanted and did it. She was my protector and any cop at a road block was wise to keep his head out of my truck. She would let them look in if I told her to, but not too close. If this isn't partnership then neither is what I have with Darcy when I'm out with the sheep and the ducks and she is pushing them exactly where I want them. Our partnership was not born out of breeding, nor was it born out of demand, it was born out of the same thing that creates a great partnership that shepherds have with the working collies - time spent doing what they love with the one they love best. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoloRiver Posted December 17, 2002 Report Share Posted December 17, 2002 I also feel that to exclude breeding of BC's for any reason other than sheep herding is too extreme..IMO...and potentially harmful for the breed in the long run when only select few can have them/keep them/breed them. Will they eventually go extinct? The correct answer to this question depends on how you define "breed." If "breed" is defined simply through pattern of descent and implies a closed gene pool, then yes. In order to facilitate the survival of the breed, if the need for working dogs diminishes (I don't see the world going vegetarian or giving upon wool anytime soon, so I doubt this will happen), it may be helpful to breed for more popular, marketable qualities. This way you will always have dogs who carry some genes of their forebears and thus are "Border Collies" according to a definition of breed that requires only lineal descent. However, my understanding is that the word "breed" implies a group of dogs that tend to be more closely related to each other than they are to individuals of other breeds (but not always) and are bred to a standard. Many breeds are bred to appearance standards like the ones you'll read on the AKC website and have been for many many years. Border Collies are different; they are bred to a work standard -- a behavioral standard. (Coppinger and Coppinger have an interesting discussion about "behavioral conformation" in their recent book, Dogs, that a lot of folks here might enjoy. The Coppingers have working Border Collies and have also used them in behavioral studies.) A Border Collie is a dog that does a Border Collie's work in a particular way, using eye, exquisite sensitivity to pressure and a willingness to work at much longer distances from the handler than most herding breed dogs (for starters). Along with these abilities comes a host of other necessary behavioral traits, many of which are among the traits that make Border Collies so popular among sports people and active pet owners: athleticism, biddability, and intense focus on either the handler or the task at hand. I don't know about you, but it's not so important to me that a dog carries some sort of Border Collie stamp or trademark on it. For me the dog is not defined by what it says on the papers. What's important to me is that the dog acts like a Border Collie, because I love these dogs for how they act and what they can do, not for how they look or what it says on the list of ingredients. For me, this breed is defined by its behavioral characteristics. I think most Border Collie fanatics feel the same way. And that is why I feel that breeding these dogs for anything but working ability (i.e., for correct "breed type" that is defined by behavior and not appearance) will lead to the extinction of the breed whether or not there remain black-and-white dogs with pedigrees that say "Border Collie" on them. By your scenario, followed to its logical conclusion, the dogs I love would be gone anyway. I don't want a Border Collie that is a Border Collie in name only. There are plenty of dogs and mixes out there that make nice pets and have the same sort of rustic charm. There's no reason to breed black-and-white dogs that can't herd. There are plenty of those out there already. But we also wanted a Border Collie, and I'm not going to apologize or feel guilty for wanting a "pure bred" dog. Border Collies are intuitive, quick learners, and eager to work with their people..and sometimes for their people. Why, specifically, did you want a Border Collie? Was it for the idea of the dog, or for the actual dog? I'm not slamming you -- before I got my first Border Collie, I was the same way. I thought it would be nice to have a biddable, trainable dog but wasn't really into all the intense activity and need for exercise. So I wrote to a guy who had a Border Collie for adoption and told him I wanted an "anomalously mellow" dog (I actually used those very words) who would be content hanging out with me at school and maybe doing some dog sports. Frankly, pretty much any dog at the local shelter would have served in that regard. As it turned out, the dog I got was nothing like the dog I thought I wanted... and as far as I'm concerned, that's a good thing. Otherwise I'd still be muddling along in the state of delusion I was in back then. (I still consider myself to inhabit a state of delusion a lot of the time -- they're just different delusions now.) I was also remiss in not pointing out that the breeder I selected did not claim to breed the herding qualities out...Grace herds and stalks...but we don't have sheep Simply displaying the postures is not the same thing as herding. The Border Collie habitus is extremely stereotyped but at heart all the posture is, is a modified hunting behavior. Border Collies have been selected to display it and so it can be "turned on" by many different sorts of stimuli, anything that engages the dog's intense interest. But I know of quite a few Border Collies who stalk and eye everything in sight and still can't herd worth a damn. On the other hand, Golden Retrievers are hunting dogs and yet make perfect therapy companions. You and I must know different Goldens, then. The ones I know make fine pets but couldn't find a dead bird if it fell into their backyard. There are working Goldens out there, but they, like Border Collies, are bred to WORK. If you're using Goldens as a good example of what the Border Collie could become in the future, it's clear you and I are coming from vastly different perspectives. I think, if I may, that the crux of the problem is breeding only in one direction versus having a well rounded, mentally stable, individual. Am I wrong in thinking that some BC's are bred so much for herding that they lose some of their other qualities? Yes, I think you are. When I chose my second dog, I specifically chose a trained working dog because the hard-core working dogs I know are by far the most stable, level-headed, and well-behaved ones. The dog I got is everything I'd hoped for and then some -- we live in the middle of the city and she comes to school with me, following me through classes and seminars and lecture halls filled with five hundred students without so much as a collar or leash. Nothing fazes her. I got her at the beginning of the year; she came off an airplane from northern England. She is a real honest-to-Larry working Border Collie. No one involved in her breeding or training ever intended that she would end up being an urban hobby herder's pet. But she makes a fine one. She's a nice little working dog too. Fly will be four years old on Christmas. (Happy Birthday Fly!) Your argument sounds logical but it's mistaken. If you spent time around real working Border Collies you would realize your mistake. Am I wrong in thinking that a good BC should have a stable mind? Shouldn't you be able to trust him/her implicitly? You are not wrong in thinking this. You are EXTREMELY wrong if you think a correctly-bred Border Collie is not stable or trustworthy and again I encourage you to spend more time around such dogs before making snap judgments about them. And I also agree that a Border Collie can be just as happy doing agility, or search and rescue, and that the bond between animal and trainer is pretty incredible. Yes. But... having done both agility and herding with my dogs... I know which they'd choose, if they could just pick one and do it all the time. And I'm not going anywhere, I find this whole new world very interesting and educational. It just goes to prove that there are always two sides to every coin. Sometimes more! Stick around. Glad to have you. -- Melanie, Solo the Red (sheepdog in training and agility dog), and Fly (trained sheepdog turned urban pet) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokjbc Posted December 17, 2002 Report Share Posted December 17, 2002 but I also feel that to exclude breeding of BC's for any reason other than sheep herding is too extreme..IMO...and potentially harmful for the breed in the long run when only select few can have them/keep them/breed them. Will they eventually go extinct?>> There are more people herding with Border Collies today, in this country, than in the past. Not only is the Border Collie still an important part of agriculture industry, the sport of trialing has extended to many areas and involves farmers/ranchers, professional trialers, and many, many hobbyists. There is a demand for well bred working dogs and there is not a "select few" out there to choose from. I did look for a breeder who bred for temperment, the dogs I met through rescue would have tried to have my cockatoo for dinner and that to me was unacceptable. >> I'm sorry you did not see enough rescue dogs. I have seen many that were exceptional pets, quick learners and got along well with my cats . All of them were working bred, I can only think of one that I felt better placing him in an active working home, more because of training issues though than actual temperament problems. OTOH, a dog that doesn't want to eat a cockatoo is probably a little "touched" . Temperament should not remove a dogs "dogginess". Training should teach most dog to leave the bird alone. So many animals were originally bred for a purpose that they are no longer bred for. > Nothing could be further from the truth for the Border Collie. Pit Bulls were originally fighting dogs, bull baiters...and look at what has come of that. >> Bull baiting is not comparable to herding- an activity that is still going strong. On the other hand, Golden Retrievers are hunting dogs and yet make perfect therapy companions. I think, if I may, that the crux of the problem is breeding only in one direction versus having a well rounded, mentally stable, individual. >> What experience makes you think herding dogs have unstable temperaments? I have bred a nice little dog that is a therapy dog for his owner- he even works pretty good. I know many working-bred Border Collies that have become therapy dogs. As far as "well rounded"- There is nothing more crucial for a good trial or work dog. A stable temperament, the ability to take pressure and new situations in stride, the ability to learn well and remember (ha! - these are necessary components of a good working dog. I picked up a pup this weekend. Going as far back as you can see, trial dogs and working dogs in her bloodlines. She is a lovely pup, with a great temperament. She is mostly housetrained already, quiet in her crate at night, will stop chasing the cat when I tell her too, and has met just about every person I know in a very small time frame. She has been to the vet and was completely comfortable there. She has been out to see sheep, met a pack of wild Aussies , and they didn't spook her. Oh yeah.. she also got to chase some sheep today.. so despite her nice character, she still thinks she's a sheepdog ( a very fast, hard to catch sheepdog). There is nothing unbalanced about her temperament, and I guarantee the only thing anyone worried about when breeding her, her parents, grandparents, etc was whether they were good working dogs. And yes, she does and will live in the house. Am I wrong in thinking that some BC's are bred so much for herding that they lose some of their other qualities? << Yes, you are very wrong. They become more neurotic and more aggressive towards the very people they are serving instead of keeping their inherent stability.>> That is poor quality temperaments and/or poor training. ANY dog can develop problems if its not brought up properly. And I have never known of a well bred, working dog that was aggressive towards its people. It may not be everyones best friend, although many are extremely friendly- but every dog I own would rather lie down and die than bite a person. Back to that little pup, she already rules the toys and won't let my older dogs have them- but I can take them away and she has no question that she must let me do that. Am I wrong in thinking that a good BC should have a stable mind? Shouldn't you be able to trust him/her implicitly?>> What is trust? Is it a nice dog, sitting quietly on a leash? Or is it that dog that is calmly bringing $10,000 worth of cows to his handler? Or gently gathering frail lambs? Or even having to take your dog and practice on someone else's stock- that they may all have names for . I'm sorry, but the pet level of trust has nothing on the trust implicit in the partnership between stockdog and stockman. And I also agree that a Border Collie can be just as happy doing agility, or search and rescue, and that the bond between animal and trainer is pretty incredible. They need a job...don't we all.>> Dogs bred for work are just as happy doing these things as dogs bred to do them are. Why create more using half-truths and outright lies as justifications? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeltaBluez Tess Posted December 17, 2002 Report Share Posted December 17, 2002 >>I picked up a pup this weekend. Going as far back as you can see, trial dogs and working dogs in her bloodlines. She is a lovely pup, with a great temperament.....There is nothing unbalanced about her temperament, and I guarantee the only thing anyone worried about when breeding her, her parents, grandparents, etc was whether they were good working dogs. << I know this pup as I co-own the sire. I also have the Aunt to this pup. Libbi, (Aunt) is one of the sweetest, kindest and gentlest Border Collies you will ever met. Libbi also has worked in the cutblocks with about 1200 ewes and runs in ISDS trials. She works at home here with my sheep. Outside of the pasture she is pretty quiet but soon as you make a movement towards the sheep, she is next to your side, all dead serious about working. Did you know that Vergil Holland ran the half brother to your pups sire in the Finals? Toss.... Diane Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pam Wolf Posted December 18, 2002 Report Share Posted December 18, 2002 One thing that continues to puzzle me whenever this discussion about how poor the temperments in the working dogs are compared to the pet/show/versatile bred dogs that I can't understand--If the working dogs are all so bad, why did the sport/show/pet folks ever want the breed to start with? Pam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyrasmom Posted December 18, 2002 Report Share Posted December 18, 2002 Wow my head is spinning...lol! Lots of really great opinions and some of it is making more sense. I have a few replies and some new questions below. The border collie still isused for its original intended purpose and the people who use them for that purpose would like to know that 100 years from now the border collie, unlike the pit bull, the average (non-field) retriever, and the samoyed, will stillbe capable of doing the work for which it was originally intended. Actually northern breeds are still being bred to pull sleds, some for recreations..some for work, which brings me to my next question. Many mushers practice "culling" to ensure that only "good prospects" are raised. I'm assuming that there are BC's born from great herding lines that aren't considered "good prospects". Is something similar to culling practiced? And just to be clear...I totally dispise the practice. I'm pointing this out for the sake of anyone else who may be reading this discussion and considering adopting a rescue dog. And it's a good thing to point out, and for the record, there are plenty of well bred dogs that would want a cockatoo for breakfast. Northern breeds are notorious for their high prey instinct, which if I'm not mistaken isn't necessarily part of the genetic make up of a BC. Also, if you read into my post, I mentioned having the pound puppy...and I do and always will. Rescue is always a first option for me..and always will be. Regardless of my choice to buy these two pups I still work with rescue groups and am in the process of setting up a website and foster network for the local animal shelter in my county which has a horrific euthanasia rate. Unfortunately, in the case of the rescues I met, they were very aggressive towards people. I had brought my pound pup with me and even in neutral territory..they weren't friendly. I'm sure that for both the dogs I met (the only ones available in my area) there are 10 times that who would have worked out for us. Why, specifically, did you want a Border Collie? I honestly wanted a BC for all the qualities that they have and would be fine with a dog who wants to herd...but that doesn't change that I don't have sheep, don't plan to have any, and plan on channeling that energy into sport. I'll confess that I didn't know about this who diversion of factions between breeders, when I did my research I did it on "breed" and thought a BC would fit well: Intelligent, intuitive, full of energy, needs to work, excels at herding and sport. I know that most dogs can do the same thing..and my pound pup is smart as a whip...but then I'm pretty sure I'm not the only sheepless person who wants and haves a BC. You are not wrong in thinking this. You are EXTREMELY wrong if you think a correctly-bred Border Collie is not stable or trustworthy and again I encourage you to spend more time around such dogs before making snap judgments about them. But that's just it, I do think a correctly bred Border Collie should be trustworthy and stable...but I also think that there are breeders who believe in herding that aren't breeding for the well rounded dog. You're right..I should meet some working dogs and I think there is a trial in Sonoma Co. in March that I'll go to for sure. Mine was a snap judgement and for that I apologize and just want to point out it was based on the dogs I met through rescue. OTOH, a dog that doesn't want to eat a cockatoo is probably a little "touched" . Temperament should not remove a dogs "dogginess". Training should teach most dog to leave the bird alone. No kidding...sometimes when he screams we want to put him in the pot...lol...not really..but as you pointed out, the dog needs to know his boundaries and in our house the cockatoo is off limits. Obviously we don't have the bird flying around while the dogs are in the house...because that is just too tempting. Vittorio does get down on the floor though and preen Joy, the rescue doggy under our strict surveillance. I'm sorry you did not see enough rescue dogs. I am too actually, not because I regret Will and Grace, I love them too much already, but because rescue dogs are just special and will have a bond with you that bred dogs will not...and please don't flame me for that...it's what i really believe. What experience makes you think herding dogs have unstable temperaments? I don't..which is why I wanted a herding dog to begin with. I guess I was just unfortunate with the examples I've come to meet which led me to a breeder. I swear, when we drove up to meet the breeder, I told my husband, if these dogs are people aggressive also...we're changing breed. And I'm not particularly afraid of "aggressive" dogs, our Chow had a big dominant streak and yet was the sweetest thing ever once we worked with her. My vet told me she must have been a Golden in Chow's clothing. Anyway I didn't mean to insinuate that all well bred BC's are neurotic...just that as with all breeding..I do think it gets out of hand. Breeding dogs just because they can reproduce is wrong. Can we agree that that there are people breeding for herding and NOT temperment? There have to be...because the dogs I met you wouldn't want within 1 ft of your precious lambs. As for my Will and Grace...I love them to death. Grace is being spayed tomorrow and I'm already dreading having to leave her at the vet. Sigh Maria Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ikw Posted December 18, 2002 Report Share Posted December 18, 2002 Is something similar to culling practiced? << Yes,by spaying and neutering. Most importantly,just breeding for working purposes only and selling only into knowledgable working homes who knows how to raise a future stock dog,knows how to start one and knows how to finish one or gets help to finish one. If the pups grows up and not up to par, breeder must stand by for what they put out and willing to take the dog back and replacing it with a worker to their expectations. I prefer not to get involve in this thread only because I don't believe working pups should be in any other homes other than working unless they turn out total dud which takes few years,then they could be placed in homes of other sports. I'm against just about anyone who goes out searching to buy an intelligent,athletic pup to fulfill their some goofy desires to fit their schedules or their neighbourly social conversation pieces for the evening. Kyrasmom, When you picked up that wonderful 2 pups of yours from some breeder,did you ask where the other pups were heading? I'll bet not. If there were 8 in the litter,I wonder where the other 6 went to? I wonder if their owners are as pleased with their pups as you are? Even if one ends up in the wrong hands with an unknown,dubious future,think about how you supported that breeder. If I sound as rude or nasty to you,take a look at those rescue sites. All those dogs were bred for something,anything but working and placed/sold to homes for anything other than working. It just isn't funny and I'm not out to make buddies with anyone by sugarcoating my words. Cristmas is here and numbers of people looking to buy Border Collies puppies are up. This could be a very festive time of the year,frankly I find it highly depressing when I think of all the Border Collie pups bred for strickly this occasion. ------------------ Inci Willard Clearville,PA 814-784-3414 ikw@pennswoods.net ------------------- It's better to be silent and thought the fool,than to speak and remove all doubt. [This message has been edited by ikw (edited 12-18-2002).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pipedream Farm Posted December 18, 2002 Report Share Posted December 18, 2002 "......I don't believe working pups should be in any other homes other than working unless they turn out total dud which takes few years, then they could be placed in homes of other sports." Glad this isn't everyone's opinion other wise I know I'd never gotten started in herding and I suspect herding as a sport would not be growing as it is now and might even eventually die off. ------------------ Mark Billadeau Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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