ivermectin, mange and collies

[feddupfish]

my mixed-breed collie has just been diagnosed with dermodectic mange. my vet has recommended two different treatment options - both of which sound awful for the dog!

 

i'm wondering if anyone has had experience with treating their collies with ivermectin, even though everything i've read says that they get a bad reaction to it?

[tiffany]

Bless your heart and buckle down, demodex can be VERY difficult to deal with. My pitbull, Mischief, was a severe case when we rescued her. Did he tell you that it is also triggered by stress?? I can't remember what type of ointment was given to us, but it was a topical steriod (possibly?) Memory is awful! But never the less it will go away. As for the ivermectin, My girl, Alana, BC, has an awful reaction to ivermec., i have to cut her monthly hearguard into four daily treatments spread out or she will vomit a yellow mucus. But you will never know without trial and error...... Good Luck with it.........

[juliepoudrier]

Here are some links to some previous discussions of this topic. If you want to search for additional information, just use the search link at the top right of the screen (under the "post new topic" and "post reply" buttons):

 

This first one is titled "heartworm preventive" and is in fact a sticky at the top of this section, but it gives good links to information on the senstivity question (Washington State University) and is worth reading to find out more about the connection between HW preventives and collie sensitivity.

 

http://www.bordercollie.org/cgi-bin/ultima...t=001438#000000

 

Here are some other general discussions in which ivermectin is mentioned:

http://www.bordercollie.org/cgi-bin/ultima...t=000914#000002

 

http://www.bordercollie.org/cgi-bin/ultima...t=000814#000010

 

http://www.bordercollie.org/cgi-bin/ultima...t=000676#000000

 

There are ways to slowly increase the dose of invermectin up to what's needed to treat mange. By following the lower-to-higher-dose schedule, you can tell if the dog is going to react before giving it the full-blown high dose needed for treatment of demodex. You can also have your dog tested for the mdr1 gene, which would answer defintively whether it's safe to use ivermectin and related chemicals on your dog. (In other words, there are a couple of ways to test if your dog is sensitive to ivermectin rather than just dismissing it as a possible treatment altogether simply because the dog is a collie breed.)

 

J.

[feddupfish]

thanks for the helpful hints. my vet did recommend the 'start low and build up' approach, but he also said that it has to get up to some pretty high dosages before it'll start to work on the darn mites! so i'm just kind of worried...

 

one of the articles that i've read also said that the mange 'break-out' could be pointing to an underlying reason relating to the immune system? is this true? should i also get him tested for any other tests?

[trailrider]

Vets told me many years ago that most dogs have/carry demodex mange mites. The dog`s bodies just deal with them with no problem. Maturing puppies and stressed bodies can become sensitive to them, and that is when we see the outbreak of problems. The dogs can also become less sensitive to the mites in time. Treat the mites with veterinarian help. He`ll help you know reactions that may occur.

[SarahAnn]

I can only echo Tiffany's sentiments. Buckle down and good luck. We have fought a long, difficult and expensive battle with one of our dogs. He is a big beautiful chocolate Lab with an impressive pedigree. We own his mother and have had him since birth. Our Vet tells us that all dogs have the mites that cause demodectic mange, but they seldom cause problems if the dog has a healthy immune system; in most cases there is an underlying cause which compromises the dog's immune system. In our dog's case, it was hypothyroidism. He went downhill for about four years before he was finally diagnosed with an underactive thyroid. We give him ivermectin daily; immunoregulin injections monthly; soloxine 0.8 mg twice daily (for the thyroid) and prednisone and/or antibiotics as needed for hot spots and skin infections. We have a dip that we try to use if the skin lesions get too bad, but he hates it so we try to focus on the medication to keep problems under control. Until our dog's health declines to a point that he has no quality of life, we will continue to bite the bullet and do what we can for him. Good luck to you and your dog.

[prosperia]

I dealt with demodex with my mix Buddy. It got really bad after I had him neutered. I worried a lot about using the ivermectin, but after seeing the terrible effects the dips had on him I finally found a vet that would perscribe it to him. We started out slow with 1cc and added a cc a day until we worked up to 6. He had no problems with it and he was back to normal in a couple of months. His hair has all grown back and he looks great.

[PSmitty]

How old is the dog? If it's an older dog who just developed demodex, I'd be concerned about some other underlying health problem. It's definitely a sign of an immature or compromised immune system. If your dog is a puppy, it doesn't necessarily mean there's another problem, since lots of puppies get it simply because their immune systems aren't fully developed yet. In fact many puppies "grow out of it" with no treatment at all.

 

I chose not to put chemicals in or on my dog to fight demodex. I treated it naturally. It's not a fast fix, but what I felt comfortable doing. Let me know if you're interested in an article that helped me treat Jack.

 

Just remember, the most important thing you can do is boost your dog's immune system. Good food, low stress, vitamins and supplements will all help.

 

Good luck.

[SarahAnn]

PSmitty -- I would love to know more about how you treated your dog. I don't like loading our dog down with chemicals, but it's the only course of treatment that we've found effective for him. What "natural" steps did you take? Is the article that you referenced available online? Any specifics you can share will be appreciated. Thanks.

[SarahAnn]

Prosperia -- 6 cc's of ivermectin seems like a lot. How much does your dog weigh? We've been giving our 85 lb. Lab only 2 cc's daily. I'm wondering if it's enough, because his skin problems are hardly under control. The dosage was our Vet's recommendation. BTW, we buy ours at a hardware/feed/seed store, and don't need a prescription. Thanks for the info.

[feddupfish]

PSmitty - my dog is 5 years old, so I am rather worried if there is an underlying problem with him. He's 15kg (about 35 lbs), so not a very big dog.

 

I did ask my vet about boosting up his immune system so that he can fight the mites, but he said that it's not that good an option, since my dog is already adult and it should have been able to control the mite population.

 

I read that there is a test available to identify if a dog has the gene that causes the reaction to ivermectin. Unfortunately I'm in NZ, and the test isn't available here. What my vet did find is an alternative to ivermectin to treat demodex but again, it's not available in NZ!

 

I'm now kind of leaning towards using ivermectin, and take the 'start low and work up' approach to the dosage. The dip sounds nasty and complicated to use - however, it at least doesn't cause death. Such a difficult decision to make really!

[Nik]

I had/have this problem w/ my Pache. My vet started him on the Amitraz dips and he had severe allergic reactions, so yes in cases like that, it very well could cause death. I sent off for the Ivermectin sensitivity test and it came back negative for the gene, so we started him on the Ivermectin treatments. He cleared up in about 2 1/2 mths and so far he's going on about a year w/ no other flareups.

 

Here's the link to send off to get the test. Washington State University can do the test through the mail. http://www.vetmed.wsu.edu/depts-VCPL/test.asp

If I remember correctly it was somewhere around $50-60, but it was well worth the extra to know for sure before taking any chances. I think it took around 2 weeks from the time I first ordered the test to get the final results. Hope this helps you w/ the testing part at least.

[PSmitty]

SarahAnn-I'll find either the link, or I'll email the article to you (Word document). I'm at work, so I'll have to do it later.

 

Fedupfish-even if you choose to go the ivermectin route, it still won't hurt, and will certainly help, to still boost his immune system. It's not like you can't do both.

 

And, at 5 years old, I would be considering doing some other tests to rule out underlying medical issues that brought the demodex on.

[Pipedream Farm]

Ivermectin comes as a solution and can have different concentrations; hence the possibility for needing different volumes to give the same mass of ivermectin. The sheep drench is 0.08% while cattle injectable is 1%; this is weight of ivermectin solid/volume of solute.

 

My suggestion would be to have the WSU test for the MDR1-delta mutation run on your dog. Then you'll know if you can safely use ivermectin at higher doses.

 

Mark

[prosperia]

Sarah Ann,

Buddy weighs 45lbs. 6cc's is a pretty big dose but he handled it well. My vet said that we had to go up to at least 5 to be effective and 7 at the max so we shot for the middle. He had it REALLY bad. This a shot of him when we started the meds. You can see the extent of his hair loss. I wish I had a pic of him now. I think my camrea is in the car, but I'll get a "now" shot after dh gets home and post it.

We bought the ivermectin from the local Souther States as well, but we had to have a note from the dr. to purchase it.

[Pipedream Farm]

Your vet said you needed a note to buy Ivermectin or did SS say you needed a note from your vet?

 

Mark

[juliepoudrier]

I'm wondering at that too. I can buy all sorts of meds from livestock supply places without a prescription, and wormers aren't exactly controlled substances.... (How would the folks at Southern States know that you don't have livestock at home that you need ivermectin for?)

 

J.

[prosperia]

The vet gave me the perscription, and when I went in to SS they asked what it was for and I showed them the dr's note. They had it kept in a locked case.

[Pipedream Farm]

That's regulations for you; need a prescription for your dog but not for livestock for the same medication.

 

Mark

[prosperia]

Dont know. Its not like I had ever bought it before hand. I just followed my vets intructions.

[SarahAnn]

Thanks to all of you for sharing your experiences; it's all helpful.

PSmitty -- thanks for your efforts to get the article to me; sounds like there are others here who would find it useful.

Re: dosage: we do use the 1% injectible solution for cattle. We mix it with a little canned food; we don't inject our dog with it. We buy syringes at the feed & seed store where we get the ivermectin.

Feddupfish -- the dip is not that difficult to use. We bought a one-gallon garden sprayer, mix the concentrate in the sprayer and then spray him, using an old cloth to massage it into his face and neck; then we just let it air-dry. I think that what he hates about it so much is having to be restrained in one spot for so long; it takes about 30 to 45 minutes. Our dogs are rarely on a leash and then it's usually for something unpleasant -- bath, boarding kennel or Vet.

[feddupfish]

thanks everyone for the useful information and tips. it's helped a lot in knowing that ivermectin has worked for some of you...

 

my dog (cookie) is going in to the vet on friday, so i'll definitely ask the vet on things like testing for any underlying problems and boosting immune system with supplements, etc.

 

hope all goes well!

[prosperia]

Buddy Bear, Got Some Hair

[PSmitty]

SarahAnn, Feddupfish and anyone else, please PM me with your email address, and I'll send the article to you. The woman who wrote it does have some stuff on her website, but I don't think she's updated it, since she still mentions the Mitaban dips, and in the article she recommends something else, which is what I did. I'd rather you see that version.

 

Just so you know, she's not a vet, just someone who has experienced demodex, tried to find an alternative treatment, and came up with this. I personally vouch for it, but every dog is different.

 

Also, while you're at it, you can do some internet research and finds lots of info on treating demodex naturally. Please keep in mind though, that my dog had it as a puppy, and not an adult with other medical conditions. But as I said, there's nothing in this treatment plan that would not work with whatever else you're doing medically.

 

And, I would recommend supplementing with milk thistle to help support the liver, if you're giving ivermectin.

 

Prosperia-Buddy is darling! He looks great.

[feddupfish]

prosperia - the pics are great! brought a big grin on my face when i looked at buddy...he does look one happy doggy!