Effects (GOOD & BAD) of neutering my male BC

[veronz]

Hi all,

I know this debate will never end, but I need some unbiased answers/opnions/experiences before I make the BIG decision to neuter Maverick.

 

The reason I want to neuter him is to :

- Stop him from licking other dogs' genitals

- Stop him from sniffing the ground endlessly, engaged in some sort of "hunting" behavior

- Stop him from licking pee left by female dogs

- Stop him from marking

- Stop him from chasing female dogs like MooMoo or Nova or Bianca etc etc.

 

 

I want to know, will neutering stop all the above-mentioned behavior?

And also, those of you who have neutered dogs, are they behaving better or worse than before neutering?

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

It will help a LOT. If he has been intact a while (like many years), some of it will continue, though not nearly as intensely - you'll have to apply behavior modification techniques to take it down to an acceptable level.

 

You didn't mention whether he was a companion dog or a working dog, suitable for breeding in the first place. This is where the debate lies primarily, but I do believe that especially in these sneaky, clever Border collies, the number one reason to neuter a male that is not working, and therefore not breeding quality, is to keep him from helping produce unwanted litters.

 

He appears, from your avatar, to be mature, so there really aren't any potential bad effects of neutering him at this point - other than the very rare risks involved with minor elective surgery. Most of the debate over the potential bad effects of neutering focus on growth and superficial cosmetic things like "looking more male", coat growth, and such. Waiting until the dog is mature will make most of these a non-issue.

[veronz]

Hi Rebecca, he is my working dog with whom I plan to do competition Obedience and dog sports with.

 

And I also do not intend to breed him because from where we come from, not many people will enjoy highly intense dogs like border collies.

 

My main concern for wanting to neuter him is because I dont think I can tolerate him leaving a Frisbee game to go chase females and lick their genitals.

And once he starts his fixation on pee left by other dogs, he's deaf. Or if he sees another female coming towards us, he starts clawing the ground in his desperate attempt to get to her.

 

Are these reasons good enough for me to neuter him?

[Sue R]

The simple fact that he isn't going to be proven as a breeding-quality working dog (working being defined as stockwork, not sports or recreation), is reason enough to be comfortable neutering him.

 

As you already realize, he's keen for "the ladies" and it won't get any better if he remains intact. Neutering provides a number of benefits, from completely eliminating the risk of testicular cancer to avoiding or reducing a number of "studly dog" behaviors (incessant marking, fussing over females, male dog aggression, etc.).

 

Perhaps most important of all, neutering removes any possibility that your dog may contribute to the over-population of dogs that are languishing in shelters, etc.

 

You will find many threads on these boards pertaining to what constitutes a breeding-worthy Border Collie (and reasons why most people should not even consider breeding their dog). You may also want to read the sticky at the top of the General Discussion or the statements at the USBCC site (www.bordercollie.org) that will further explain the philosophy involved.

[Root Beer]

he is my working dog with whom I plan to do competition Obedience and dog sports with

I don't know of any drawbacks of neutering in this situation. Like Rebecca said, since he is fully mature, you don't have to worry about it being too early.

 

From an activity standpoint, one benefit is that you will not have to worry about females being a distraction to him when you want him working with you.

 

My main concern for wanting to neuter him is because I dont think I can tolerate him leaving a Frisbee game to go chase females and lick their genitals.

 

And once he starts his fixation on pee left by other dogs, he's deaf. Or if he sees another female coming towards us, he starts clawing the ground in his desperate attempt to get to her.

 

Are these reasons good enough for me to neuter him?

I think they are good enough reasons. My three cents - I would definitely neuter in that situation.

[veronz]

Thanks everyone, guess my mind is quite made up.

Yah Sue R is correct. Being my first Border Collie and one that I will only do Competition Obedience / Flyball/ Agility in our leisure time, I dont think he will ever be proven to be breeding-quality.

 

Thank you all once again everytime I have a question you all are so quick and so helpful to offer advice and experience. You dont know how much I appreciate it. Thank you.

[bobh]

mavrics mum, i would not N/S until your dog is 14-24 months old . Gives the growth plates time to close!

JMOPbobh

[Sue R]

Maverick's Mom - I believe the general thinking now is that growth plates are closed by about 14 months. That said, many dogs have been neutered at much younger ages without ill effects.

 

I sincerely believe the benefits greatly outweigh any potential risks (surgery, anethesia, growth plates). Neutering has certain health benefits and multiple behavioral benefits.

[juliepoudrier]

BobH,

I believe Maverick's mum has stated (or at least hasn't refuted that assumption made by a couple of other posters) that the dog is fully mature, so neutering before growth plates have closed isn't really a consideration in this case.

 

J.

[veronz]

Hi BobH, yah Maverick is 21 months old now (1 yr 9 mths) so I guess his growth plates have more or less closed.

 

Have fixed an appointment with the vet. Sending him in April.

This is a big decision for us since my partner doesnt agree with neutering.

Been reading up on before and after-op care.

The vet told me to fast him from 10pm the night before and bring him in first thing in the morning, 8.30am.

 

I wonder how he's gonna do with so many hours without water.

[MaggieDog]

Did your vet say no water? I would check on that; I've never heard of restricting water for that long before surgery, but maybe they have their reasons? Something to check on for sure.

[Sue R]

Maverick's Mom - Fasting usually (in my experience) means no solid food but allows water up to a point (like early morning), so you might want to double check that with the vet first. I don't see a problem with restricting water from 10 pm on because your dog won't eat in the morning and have the same need to drink.

 

Lots of guys have real problems with neutering, although spaying doesn't seem to concern them in the least!

 

Best wishes for a safe and healthy neuter! It's a wise choice.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

Ten pm is exactly when the vet has us cut off both food and water. I've done a zillion surgeries with her (rescues) and it's always been fine. I think the concern is that they will void during surgery and contaminate the operating area (particularly the incision site). I believe they will put your dog on IV fluids during the surgery so you don't have to worry about dehydration.

 

I've had to withold water for up to 48 hours before for various reasons - most memorably the time my young dog came down with pancreatitis, yeowie. He wasn't even allowed to have iv fluids to facilitate complete rest of his system. Then he was only allowed a couple of ice cubes on day three, and then on day four like 4 oz of thin broth in the am and 8 oz of water in the pm - it was scary and excruciating, but that was an extreme case.

 

However, I don't recommend restricting water without the vet's explicit guidance. I have water in front of them at all times (except when I absent mindedly put them in crates without a bucket - then I have to dig out a bowl when we stop). I also add water to their meals unless it's raw meat.

[2 Devils]

We have always been told no food after 10pm and no water after midnight.

 

The reason is the same as it is for humans. If they have to intubate - they don't want vomiting which can cause choking, if dog has reactions to anything, eliminating, etc... this can cause a non-sterile environment.

[Eireann]

How can spaying and neutering effect the growth plates? I've always (at the vet's suggestion) spayed and neutered before 7months with no problems. Would the dog be stunted in his growth or does it have something to do with his joints?

Just wondering- thanks.

[2 Devils]

Some believe that spaying/neutering before the plates have closed can alter the build of the dog. They could grow taller (be more leggy), some believe they have a greater chance of tearing the ACL and in females in particular cna have incontinence problems. I know there are more out there but just can't of them at the moment.

 

The growth/acl thoughts have something to do with the hormones... I think

[Eireann]

That's interesting- thank you for the reply. I guess I've never even thought of S/N early as a 'bad' thing, but my male (lab 2yo) did just tear his ACL and was fixed at 6months. Interesting indeed.

[mrsjordanjr]

I've had other breeds of dogs then Border Collies so I'll give you my experience.

 

I had a beagle mix, fixed him, didn't help a thing regarding all the stuff you mentioned above.

 

I had a doberman/terrier mix, fixed him too, helped a little bit but still had problems with him marking and some other annoyances.

 

Never fixed a Border Collie so I don't know about that. Always had purebreds and was breeding them for sheep dog herding.

 

I say your chances are 50/50.

[Tex]

There are a number of studies that suggest that those of us with canine athletes should be carefully considering our current recommendations to spay or neuter all dogs at 6 months of age or earlier. A study by Salmeri et al in 1991 (Salmeri et al JAVMA 1991;198:1193-1203) found that bitches spayed at 7 weeks were significantly taller than those spayed at 7 months, and that those spayed at at 7 months had significantly delayed closure of the growth plates than those not spayed (or presumably spayed after the growth plates had closed). The sex hormones close the growth plates, so the bones of dogs or bitches neutered or spayed before puberty continue to grow. This growth frequently results in a dog that does not have the same body proportions as he/she was genetically meant to. For example, if the femur is normal length at 8 months when a dog gets spayed or neutered, but the tibia, which normally stops growing at 12 to 14 months of age continues to grow, then an abnormal angle may develop at the stifle. In addition, with the extra growth, the lower leg below the stifle becomes heavier (because it is longer), causing increased stresses on the cranial cruciate ligament. This is confirmed by a recent study showing that spayed and neutered dogs have a higher incidence of CCL rupture (Slauterbeck JR, Pankratz K, Xu KT, Bozeman SC, Hardy DM. Canine ovariohysterectomy and orchiectomy increases the prevalence of ACL injury. Clin Orthop Relat Res. 2004 Dec;(429):301-5).

 

In addition, a study in 2004 in JAVMA (Spain et al. JAVMA 2004;224:380-387) showed that dogs spayed or neutered before 5 1/2 months had a significantly higher incidence of hip dysplasia than dogs spayed or neutered after 5 1/2 months of age. If I were a breeder, I would be very concerned about this, because it would mean that I might be making incorrect breeding decisions if I were considering the hip status of pups I sold that were spayed or neutered early. Interestingly, this same author also identified an increased incidence of sexual behaviors in males and females that were neutered early.

 

A number of studies, including the one by Spain referenced above, have shown that there is an increase in the incidence of female urinary incontinence in dogs spayed early. This problem is an inconvenience, and not usually life-threatening, but nonetheless one that requires the dog to be medicated for life.

 

Yes, there is the concern that there is an increased risk of mammary cancer if a dog has a heat cycle. But it is my observation that fewer canine athletes develop mammary cancer as compared to the number that damage their cranial cruciate ligaments. In addition, only about 50 % of mammary cancers are malignant, and those that are malignant don't metastasize very often, particularly in these days when there is early identification and removal of lumps found on our dogs.

 

In addition, when considering cancer, there is another study of 3218 dogs that showed that dogs that were neutered before a year of age had a significantly increased chance of developing bone cancer (Cooley DM, Beranek BC, Schlittler DL, Glickman NW, Glickman LT, Waters D, Cancer Epidemiol Biomarkers Prev. 2002 Nov;11(11):1434-40), a cancer that is much more life-threatening than mammary cancer, and which affects both genders.

 

Finally, in another study, unneutered males were significantly less likely than neutered males to suffer cognitive impairment when they were older (Hart BL. J Am Vet Med Assoc. 2001 Jul 1;219(1):51-6). Females were not evaluated in that study.

[veronz]

Ok it's been 3 days since Maverick was neutered.

The first day, after surgery, he was groggy and didnt do much except to sleep. Didnt have his dinner too.

 

Come 2nd day, he greeted me by throwing a tennis ball at me!

Forget what the vet said about refrain from exercising for up to a week. This guy decided otherwise.

Anyway, I was too afraid to take any chances so I kept the ball.

 

I wonder how long it takes for him to recover fully so that he can go out and have a ball of a time!

[Tassie]

If you're wanting to play safe, I'd wait till the stitches are out - another 7 days or so. In the meantime, it's a good chance to exercise his brain - teaching tricks, obedience moves - target training - anything that's comfortable for him. This will tire him out without the need for too much physical exercise.

[Black Watch Debatable]

In addition, when considering cancer, there is another study of 3218 dogs that showed that dogs that were neutered before a year of age had a significantly increased chance of developing bone cancer (Cooley DM, Beranek BC, Schlittler DL, Glickman NW, Glickman LT, Waters D, Cancer Epidemiol Biomarkers Prev. 2002 Nov;11(11):1434-40), a cancer that is much more life-threatening than mammary cancer, and which affects both genders.

However---

[T]he study ("Endogenenous Gonadal Hormone Exposure and Bone Sarcoma Risk," Dawn M. Cooley et al. Cancer Epidemiology Biomarkers and Prevention, Vol. 11, 1434-1440, November 2002) was done on 71,004 rottweilers. Thus based on the study we can say that delaying spaying or castration until sexual maturity confers some protection against bone cancer in this breed, but we can't say anything about that relationship in any other breeds. [From the second Milani link, below.]

I'm very much in the "speuter late" camp, myself. For one (anecdotal) thing, it seems as if all the dogs I know that have suffered cruciate problems were spayed at one year or younger...

 

Early Spay-Neuter Considerations

for the Canine Athlete, by Dr. Chris Zink.

 

Spay, Neuter, and Cancer: Revisiting and Old Trinity, by Dr. Myrna Milani.

 

Reproductive Emotions and the Human - Companion Animal Bond, by Dr. Milani.

[Eireann]

Great info, Tex .