diane allen Posted January 21, 2004 Report Share Posted January 21, 2004 Someone with more biochemical background than I have might be able to explain this.... I feed my dogs a raw diet (please, no discussion, just accept that part for now...), including one female border collie (about 40 pounds, in good condition and in good health except for an incontinence problem, currently well-controlled with D.E.S., one every three days). They get raw meat, pulped veggies and usually oats with lots of supplements (oils, etc.). I started adding about a teaspoon of apple cider vinegar to each meal after reading a lot about it - health benefits, etc. I figured it, at the very least, couldn't hurt anything. Lucy gets what I suspect are minor UTIs every once in awhile. To her food, I've also been adding half a capsule (opened and sprinkled on food) of cranberry extract twice daily, to keep the urinary tract acidic. However, the last time I took her to the vet, her urine pH measured 9!! Vet suggested that I get some pH strips and continue monitoring, which I haven't done yet, but intend to. I read an article by Wendy Volhard, who is a big proponent of raw diets, which says "Taken internally apple cider vinegar (ACV) is credited with maintaing the acid/alkaline balance of the digestive tract.....[measuring pH...] If it is 7.5 or higher, the diet you are feeding is too alkaline, and ACV will re-establish the correct balance." Obviously the "correct balance" depends on foods being fed, but that aside... pH of vinegar is somewhere around 3; apples, which I also feed sometimes, is around 3; carrots, bananas, beets, broccoli,pumpkin, squash, and green beans are all around 5-6. Does it make sense to add MORE vinegar, to help "balance" the pH of her urine? Any idea how much more? AK doc, if you're around, I'd love your input - I think there's more to this metabolism thing than I really want to know, but I DO want to know! Thanks! diane Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AK dog doc Posted January 21, 2004 Report Share Posted January 21, 2004 Hmmm, okay, but we're delving into an area which is not my primary area of expertise, so I may be of limited value here. I'll apologise in advance for that. First thing is that what happens in the GI tract and what happens in the urinary tract are not the same, so even if apple cider vinegar makes the GI tract acidic, that doesn't mean it makes the urine acidic, necessarily. Anything ingested has to be metabolised, which may significantly alter its original properties (the classic example being antifreeze, which becomes a death sentance only AFTER the body metabolises it into calcium oxylates). Not having had a lot of instruction (read: NONE) in vet school regarding use of apple cider vinegar as a food additive for companion animals, I can't really tell you what happens metabolically with its ingestion. Second thing is that (as you rightly point out) other things in the diet also affect pH; I would add it's not just the pH of the food BEFORE it's ingested, but after it begins to undergo digestion and metabolism, that is of interest. Moreover, different combinations may react differently. There's something called "ion trapping", which means that a substance which is unable to exit the GI tract and enter the bloodstream at one pH may be very able to do so at a different pH. If the pH prevents its absorption by the GI tract, it will just be excreted in the stool (as a BTW, this might or might not affect absorption of the DES - you'd have to ask a veterinary pharmacist about that, I think). To be perfectly honest, I have no idea how ACV affects the absorption of other nutrients in the canine GI tract, if indeed it has any effect at all. This might be something a boarded internist could answer for you, though. It's tempting to conclude that - since we are monogastric omnivores like dogs are - it would have the same effect in dogs as in people, but that isn't necessarily so. Third thing is that all dogs have individual metabolism. It may be that this particular dog has a tendency toward an alkaline urine pH NORMALLY, and that is why she also has an inclination to UTI's; could be not. Could just be that the estrogen-responsive incontinence predisposes her, or she has some other reason to be prone to it. (A UTI can also alter the urine pH, so if she had a low-grade infection, that might be part of the culprit). It's also possible that for some reason she had an alkaline pH *that day* and that it isn't normally alkaline; the suggestion to test urine pH at home isn't a bad idea (use fresh urine, as "old" urine - besides being less pleasant to deal with - may have undergone some pH changes as a result of bacterial activity, etc, on standing.) The body is meant to operate in a fairly narrow pH range. Consequently, there are a variety of compensatory mechanisms the body has that are meant to return the body to that pH range. If you are over-acidifying the food, you may find that you are putting some of those into overdrive and sort of bolloxing up the works. You could try an experiment in which you eliminate the ACV and see if the pH drops, rises or remains the same. First you would need a baseline urine pH for several days to get an idea of your "normal", and you would of course have to keep the diet exactly alike from day to day during the experiment to be sure that it is ONLY the effect of the ACV you are testing, and test for several days after you stop the ACV to give the system time to re-equilibrate. (This is sort of presuming that urine pH is the main thing that's concerning you on this.) The proof of the effect would be to then reintroduce the ACV and see what happens (the acid test, so to speak.) These are just my thoughts on the matter without any personal experience with it, either theoretical or actual. I will point out that not every food is good for every animal, regardless of the quality of the food. The example I often use here is that green Bell peppers, which are "good for you" - full of fiber and nutrients - are NOT good for me. I can guarantee myself DAYS of indigestion if I eat even a little. Nothing wrong with either me or the peppers; just not a compatible combination. This is why metabolism stuff can get so complex.... so many variables. The proof is in the pudding, though - or in this case, in the peeing. If you check urine pH at home, you may be able - by altering only one variable at a time and keeping all other things the same (including activity level and treats taken in and timing of your testing) - to determine which combination gives you the best result in *this* dog. The alternative would be to test blood pH and/or the parameters related thereto, but that's a bit more invasive and considerably more expensive, and you'd still have to change things up if you found out she wasn't in an ideal zone. Anyway, sorry that's so vague; maybe someone here has been using the ACV on their own animals and has some experience to draw from that I don't...? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigD Posted January 21, 2004 Report Share Posted January 21, 2004 Diane and AK Dog doc - Don't use ACV or feed raw...but I'm doing the urine PH/Spc. Gravity dance all the same. We've been battling a reacurring infection with our 5 month old. PH up to 7 for the last one - specific gravity down to 1012. We've gone from 1013, 1015, 1024 1019 to 1012. The PH worried him a bit...he said that a diet of only veggies could bring on a higher than normal PH (could your veggies in the raw diet do this???) but since she's not a veggie dog, he said it was most likely due to the bacteria. We went on meds for 2 weeks and she still seemed to have a discharge. But better on the pee frequency. I had her checked again yesterday and her PH is down to 5 (better he said) and the spec. gravity is at 1025. Her highest. But he still wants her up around 1030. We are going to take a clean sample of urine tomorrow and send to mainland for a culture. So that we can get a name and face to the beasts in her and kill it with the right meds. I asked about cranberry and my vet said that cranberry juice will only help towards specific types of bacteria. The culture will tell us which it is. I didn't know that - I figured if you've got the pee-funk...then cranberry juice will help. But not true - so he says. I don't know if this helps - but the veggie diet thing seems interesting to me - especially since you feed all those wonderful veggies. But it's all a chicken/egg sort of thing. Is the infection due to low specific gravity or is the low spec grav due to the infection and increase in water consumption. Or is the PH due to the infection or is the infection due to the PH....oh it goes on and on.... Our last resort is to do a water with-holding test for a few days and see if her little organs are working...if she can concentrate the pee....OR if she just LOVES to drink water. She does have a problem on our walks of having to taste test EVERY single puddle we come to. Anyway, hope something in here does some good...maybe... Denise Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jvw Posted January 22, 2004 Report Share Posted January 22, 2004 Diane, Just wondering if you figured out the root cause for the incontinence. Did the bladder infections come first or are they a side effect of the incontinence treatment? I have a dog with incontinence when she sleeps. No bladder infection was ever found. Wondering if its something I might have to look out for. I feed raw too but I don't do anything to alter the pH of the urine. Jennifer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diane allen Posted January 22, 2004 Author Report Share Posted January 22, 2004 AK dog - thanks very much. You validated things I "believe" but haven't proven (i.e., she tends to have alkaline pH normally, and I should be checking this regularly, particularly as it relates to the occasional infections; I'll do it! and to test with and without certain foods; I'll do that too!). Interesting about the possible problems with absorption of the DES related to pH - makes sense, but I never thought of it. But boarded internist? vet pharmacist? Oh my. Certainly none of those nearby, and I guess this will have to be a bigger/longer-term problem before I seek such! But thanks for the suggestions on that. Big D - We've had more complete urine tests and specific gravity has not ever been an issue. I'm fairly certain these infections are mild, low-grade and don't affect her performance (agility) or feeling at all! Whew. I use the cranberry as much to keep things acidic, so bugs don't grow - rather than to kill something already there. Hope this logic is correct! Jennifer - The incontinence definitely came before the raw diet was started; can't really say about the infections. I adopted this dog at age 3.5 years. Noticed the incontinence fairly quickly but not sure about how soon/when infections started to happen. NONE of them have been very serious. The worst is when we're traveling (we do, a lot), and she's in the front seat (belted in, of course!), and "leaks" a tiny tiny bit of awfully smelly stuff. Noticeable right away! Then occasionally I'll notice that it seems to take her forever to actually finish peeing (like, 20 seconds, which is an incredibly long time, when the usual is 5-7 seconds!). That was the latest "symptom" which prompted me to take her in to be tested. The best part of all this: she'll pee on command! Makes those tests (at the vet's and at home) oh so much easier and faster! Thanks to all! diane Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AK dog doc Posted January 22, 2004 Report Share Posted January 22, 2004 Jennifer - the incontinence issue (at least in this case) is estrogen-related, not dietary. Spayed feamles have no ovaries so very minimal estrogen production. In a small percentage of females dogs, this will result in true urinary incontinence (as opposed to "urge incontinence", which is when the dog's urgency makes them need to go RIGHT NOW, regardless of where they are and if it's an appropriate spot, which is something that commonly happens with bladder infections.) You describe symptoms of true incontinence - leaking urine unconsciously, often when the dog is relaxed (as in sleeping) and/or either lying down or sitting (for positional reasons). This is addressed with estrogen (DES), which is typically given once to twice weekly after an initial loading dose, though I have a few patients who've needed every other day. Estrogen binds to receptors on the urethral sphincter (the muscle that holds the bladder shut) and increases its tone so that it holds more efficiently. It also increases vaginal tone so that the vaginal vault is anatomically less likely to allow urine pooling (this decreases the chances of leaking AND infection). The reason I mentioned acidifications and DES absorption was that *IF* the acidity decreases DES asorption, then it might increase the risk of infection by alowing urine pooling and "backwash" into the bladder through the slightly-less-competent urethral sphincter muscle. Diane, part of the reason for the cranberry is that it inhibits pillus formation in the bacteria. A pillus is a sort of little grappling hook the bacteria use to help them stick the bladder wall, so that they are not "washed out to sea" when the dog voids its bladder, and are still there to colonize anew when the bladder refills. Inhibiting pillus formation allows the bladder's natural defenses to do a better job against the bacteria and discourage colonization. Just a handy fringe benefit for those of us who are wild about cranberries (of which I am one). I personally tout the sugar-free and high-furctose corn syrup-free versions, as sugar inhibits the function of some immune system cells (and the corn syrup gives me a headache, so I am - no doubt unfairly - prejudiced against it.) Knudsen makes several all-fruit crnaberry juices, some of which (reportedly) are quite palatable to at least some dogs. There are also the cranberry capsules, for less sophisticated tastes. Moab, eh? It's been ages since I was there... is it still a cool little town? There used to be this great little gallery there called Ghost Rain, but I heard it closed; and there was this place where we had the most incredible pizza.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jvw Posted January 23, 2004 Report Share Posted January 23, 2004 Wow, as always thanks for the detailed reply AK doc! My poor Tyra was spayed at 8 weeks old at the shelter!! I suspected the incontince was estrogen related. However, it actually didn't start until I got my puppy. And at the same time other issues were also going on in my life. It was like she became a kid wetting the bed while going through a divorce or something! With Tyra my vet tried PPA. That experiment failed miserably!!! It didn't help much for one and she is already a nervous dog and that just put her over the edge. In fact, she got to a point where SHE refused to take it. At that point I went to a holistic vet to deal with the incontinence and a host of other minor issues. In the end what I found that worked was a homeopathic remedy called Causticum. A five day treatment and then as needed if it returns. I've had to use it once again since but only a two day treatment that time. We've also been dealing with her nervousness and anxiety and I think that has also helped a lot. Jennifer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diane allen Posted January 31, 2004 Author Report Share Posted January 31, 2004 Wow, Doc, you do get around! Yes, I vaguely remember that gallery - they do seem to come and go rather regularly here....I'm not sure I was ever in that particular one. There's half a chance that a particular metal sculptor exhibited his work there....he died unexpectedly, I adopted his dog, and she's the one I'm writing about! THERE'S a long-distance connection! Moab - cool? I'm sure many folks would say so. Little? Not a chance! Because we're so tourist-oriented, town has grown a LOT in the past 10 years or so. We've had pretty much every fast food joint known - except that two have now gone out of business! We do pizza, ice cream and T-shirts quite nicely, thank you! Ah, capitalism. However, we're still a small-enough town that I haven't been able to find pH strips!! Headed through some Big Cities next weekend and will look around. Yep, Lucy gets her cranberry from capsules....she really doesn't seem to mind! And a friend/vet once told me something...that I should get the dog checked for something because of the DES, but danged if I can remember what!! Seems like it was something in a urine test (rather than blood)....what problems might DES cause that could be detected by a urine test?! Jennifer - Lucy was also on PPA even before all the bad press about its inclusion in diet pills. I tried some homeopathic remedies, which worked for awhile; then switched from good kibble to raw - never could get the homeo stuff to work again! Went back to PPA, never had any particular problems, though it wasn't perfect and actually seemed to lose effectiveness after awhile; and finally decided to try something else. Lucy gets the DES every three days. Once last summer, I tried to change that to just twice a week (easier for me to remember!); but that didn't work either! I may try changing back again...after it warms up and laundry dries on the line in a day! Thanks again for your help, Doc! diane Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AK dog doc Posted February 1, 2004 Report Share Posted February 1, 2004 Wow, last time I was in Moab it was still pretty small (okay, so that was nearly 15 years ago). Having a hard time picturing it big. A friend who used to live there (not sure if she still does, we've gotten out of touch) took me into Ghost Rain - I remember they had these tiny, exquisitely carved skulls there, complete and accurate down to the sutures between the skull bones and the foramina (holes) where the nerves and vessels pass through the bones. I love the elegance of bones, and I almost bought one, but I was in vet school and tooooo poor. Always regretted that. I guess the owner was a little eccentric and perhaps independantly wealthy, so the gallery was rarely open (which - call me crazy - might've had something to do with it closing...) There were also these little metal discs of different shapes carved with paw prints (etc), beautifully done - don't know if that might've been the work of the sculptor whose dog you now have. Can't your local pharmacist order the pH strips for you? I'm not sure what the urine test while on DES was about - nothing comes to mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HerdinGal Posted February 1, 2004 Report Share Posted February 1, 2004 I've also seen homeopathy work brilliantly on incontinence when everything else had failed. The whole issue sounds like you need a fresh set of eyes to look at it - ideally some holistic ones. Jennifer what was the name of the vet and where are they from? I'm always networked for good practitioners Just had a dog with a UTI here - poor wee girl that had been crated 24/7 for about 2 months prior to being thankfully set free to more sensible souls. My vet had me put her on a 3 day series of Vit A, cranberry extra capsules, and the homeopathic remedy pulsatilla. The night after the first dose was the first night she was able to sleep (and oh did she!) for 8 uninterupted hours without crying to potty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rave Posted February 2, 2004 Report Share Posted February 2, 2004 My girl Sierra had high pH problems previously...tried everything and the only thing that worked was giving her Vitamin C - but only the ascorbic acid variety. Don't know why it worked (chemistry was a loooong time ago!), but it did and no problems since. -Laura Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jvw Posted February 2, 2004 Report Share Posted February 2, 2004 HerdingGal email me privately and I'd be happy to give you more info jlvanwagner@hotmail.com Jennifer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diane allen Posted February 2, 2004 Author Report Share Posted February 2, 2004 HerdinGal - Believe me, if a homeopathic vet familiar with raw diet and incontinence was within 200 miles of here (or maybe even farther!), I'd be there in a heartbeat. My regular vet (out of town) is pretty good and open-minded, but just hasn't made the leap to homeopathy. I'll keep looking.... Thanks. diane Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HerdinGal Posted February 3, 2004 Report Share Posted February 3, 2004 Diane I work with my holistic vet primarily by phone; and many others only use her by phone. For diagnostics she will work with you local vet, as needed. Suggested remedies are mailed to you or you can purchase them yourself. Working with a phone vet sounds hokey, but I can tell you she's made a believer out of us. Her questions are detailed and her instructions clear - and it helps that most dog people who contact her are already quite educated in care themselves. Email me privately at brdrfvr@yahoo.com for contact information on her if you'd like. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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