Weave Poles

[beachdogz]

I'm having a problem with Piper's weave poles and wondering if anyone has any suggestions for fixing it.  She was doing the weave poles just fine.  Then, a couple months ago, she started exiting before the last two poles.  If I put her on lead, she flies through them perfectly.  It's when she's off lead -- both on the course and/or when I just am doing a skills practice.  It's always the same place.  She exits before the last two poles.  It's driving me crazy! 

Parker went through the exact same thing, which I chalked up to immaturity/wanting to get to the next obstacle faster -- but his simply went away and his weaves are pretty spot-on now.  Piper just doesn't seem to be coming out of this phase. 

I've tried to thread her slowly when training, but it is darn near impossible.  She doesn't have a slow switch, and still barrels right through them.  I'm afraid this may now have become a pattern/habit.  Any and all suggestions are appreciated.

Thank you.

[gcv-border]

Does Piper pull out if you are running with her along the poles, or is she more likely to pull out if you are moving away from the poles to get to the next obstacle?

Personally, I don't think that putting her on a leash is helping. The goal is to teach her that her job is to finish all the poles - whether you are running along beside her or are at a distance.

If you have adjustable weaves, or are using poles stuck in the ground, one option is to open up the last 2 poles to make it easier for her to finish the 12. I would first proof going to the end of the poles (distance, pulling away, etc.) to make sure she understands that she has to finish all 12 while you move away.  Then you can start GRADUALLY closing the last two poles and continue with straight on path or proofing distance and pulling away.

Another option - if she understands what a Treat & Train is (the remote-controlled treat dispenser), use that to see if she will drive to it and finish all 12 poles. If she is still popping out, try opening the last 2 poles as suggested above.

Obviously, you can also reward with a thrown toy - keep the toy in the hand away from the poles so the dog doesn't see it. I haven't had great luck with that because my dogs KNOW I have a toy and will focus on that. My timing has to be incredibly precise (which it usually isn't) to use a throw toy successfully.

[beachdogz]

Thank you.  She will pull out in both instances.  At first when it started, we thought it was the distance I was away from her.  So I went back to staying close as she weaved, but she still exited before the last two poles. 

I train at class in a building, so the poles are stationary on a "track".  I don't believe I can change the distance of the last two poles on those.  I do have the Cool Runners portable weave poles at home that I used to train via the channel method.  I possibly could move those last two poles on those, but they would be wider and not in line with the other poles.  I'm not sure if that would help or hurt.

Never heard of a Treat & Train, but now I'm curious and going to look that up.

She is not toy-driven....just food driven.  Not sure if throwing the treat at the end will help?  If so, I could try that.

 

[gcv-border]

1 hour ago, beachdogz said:

Never heard of a Treat & Train, but now I'm curious and going to look that up.

The Treat & Train used to be called Manners Minder, if that helps.

And yes, move the last 2 poles so they are wider and she doesn't have to bend her body as much to finish the poles. She should know to continue 'weaving' past the last pole. If the last 2 are wider, she still has the 'landmarks' of the poles, but it is easier to complete the task. Gradually move them back towards the center. If she starts popping out again, it is possible that you have narrowed them too fast. Return them to a wider position so she has a >90% or 95% success rate, then narrow again. (Note: try narrowing by a very small increment so she hardly notices)

[diane allen]

If you started with channels - did you also use wires?  In any case, it might be helpful to "wire" the last two (or three) poles.  They are snap-on guides that keep the dog from exiting (or to help with entry).  It might take a lot of repetitions - and if you're trialing in the meantime, you're somewhat negating the training time.

Good luck!

diane

[alligande]

I am a big believer in never slowing a dog down, you might never get the speed back. I had a similar issue with my older dog as he got more confident aka faster he was coming out between 10 and 11, watching it back on video we realized he was getting faster through the poles as he went and basically couldn’t make the last turn and popped out. What solved it with him was using V weaves which the facility I trained at happened to have, it helped him figure out his footing. The two things I would try are opening up the last 2 poles a bit, or adding guides. 
I use a treat and train aka manners minder extensively in my training, I train on surfaces were thrown treats are a bad idea, plus I don’t like my dogs looking at my hands. I use it when I want my dog thinking and mastering a skill, once he has the skill down we switch to a toy, and with my current competition dog this also adds the speed, when we work with food he isn’t as fast, but that’s his choice and I know he his thinking about the puzzle. 

[beachdogz]

On 11/24/2021 at 10:11 PM, gcv-border said:

And yes, move the last 2 poles so they are wider and she doesn't have to bend her body as much to finish the poles. She should know to continue 'weaving' past the last pole. If the last 2 are wider, she still has the 'landmarks' of the poles, but it is easier to complete the task. Gradually move them back towards the center.

Well, duh, I misunderstood the term "wider" and was thinking keeping them in a straight line, but more spacing on the last two.  I can easily widen the last ones using the beginner channels that we have!  thank you!

On 11/25/2021 at 7:50 PM, diane allen said:

If you started with channels - did you also use wires?  In any case, it might be helpful to "wire" the last two (or three) poles.  They are snap-on guides that keep the dog from exiting (or to help with entry).  It might take a lot of repetitions - and if you're trialing in the meantime, you're somewhat negating the training time.

 

I did start with channels, did not use guide wires,  but I do have guide wires from way back when.  I had thought of them, but wondered if it might cause further problems since I had never used them on these puppies.  Not trialing, so no problem there!

On 11/27/2021 at 3:49 AM, alligande said:

I am a big believer in never slowing a dog down, you might never get the speed back. I had a similar issue with my older dog as he got more confident aka faster he was coming out between 10 and 11, watching it back on video we realized he was getting faster through the poles as he went and basically couldn’t make the last turn and popped out. What solved it with him was using V weaves which the facility I trained at happened to have, it helped him figure out his footing. The two things I would try are opening up the last 2 poles a bit, or adding guides. 
 

Oh, wow.  Never thought of videoing.  Gonna do that tomorrow at class.  Then going back to the channel/v weave poles and starting with that.  Gonna save the guide wires if all else fails. 

Thank you all so much for so much valuable information!!  Can't wait for class tomorrow to start all this! 

[beachdogz]

UPDATE:  Well, I could hardly wait to get to class this afternoon.  I set up the practice poles with the last two wider, to try later.  I then asked the instructor to video us doing the regular weave poles -- once on lead (which she always does perfectly) and then once off lead (which is when she always pops out on the last two poles.)  Well, she did them perfectly both times.  So we tried again.  And again.  All perfect.  Then we tried putting in a jump before them.  Perfect.  Then we tried adding the tunnel after.  Perfect.  Then we tried a small segment.  Once again, perfect.  I think we ended up with 8 videos of perfect poles. 

So  I want to thank all of you for fixing this problem for me.  I don't know how you did it, but it worked well! 

I'm not naive enough to think the problem has disappeared, but I do now have the ideas of widening the last two poles or using the guide wires if and when this pops up again.  But until then, mission accomplished.  LOL

[gcv-border]

Happy to hear that the weave pole problem is 'fixed'. Maybe it was your attitude?

 

[beachdogz]

Well, I've actually tried analyzing that, thinking that when running a course, I was not close by and not paying attention.  But then when I would isolate the poles, focusing on them, it still happened.  I've also tried analyzing my frame of mind, and it has happened too many times in too many instances, so I could not pinpoint attitude.   I don't get frustrated with the dog itself because I've been doing this a long time and know this is all a part of learning.  I'm not trialing, so there is no pressure to get something done.  

I totally expect to have this problem crop up again sometime in the next couple weeks.  I can't believe I solved the problem, since I did nothing different to work on it.  However, Parker did this very same thing and simply outgrew it.  Maybe it just takes her longer to outgrow things.  Time will tell and I'll keep you posted. 

However, here is another question to ponder.  When doing a segment with poles (or any other obstacle), and they make a mistake, what do you do?  Do you take the dog back and re-do the obstacle immediately after they make the mistake;  do you wait till the end of the segment and then re-do it, or do you just continue on with the class and not re-do it at all? 

I've been doing a lot of internet searches and videos about training, and this is the one thing I've noticed.  At a seminar or a webinar, the speaker will show you how they teach an exercise and then how they execute the exercise - but rarely do they go into what they do to fix it when the dog does not do it.  It's almost as if they are saying, "well, if you do it my way, your dog will not have problems"....and we all know that is not the case. 

[diane allen]

I think it depends-on the dog.  I would NEVER continue on with an exercise if the dog did what you have been working on "fixing."  If you do, you just gave the dog the information:  it's OK to do (whatever you did "wrong").  So, your exercise is jump-weaves-tunnel. Dog pops out at pole #10 and takes the tunnel. STOP. And redo the weaves from the beginning. 

OTOH....I have a very soft dog.  Unlike my previous hard/fast dogs, if she had to "re-do" something, she was quite sure she was wrong (even if, as usual, it was my fault), and she would slow down to get it right.  Not what I wanted!

So, in practice, I would simply say "oops! let's try that again" and make it sound as happy as possible.  In trials, I would say something (maybe just oops), and keep going.  And practice it more.  As you say, time will tell.  I think many driven "baby dogs" pop out of poles, and it's only experience that teaches them that isn't what you want.  

As an aside, I do NOT think that taking them off the course in competition (not saying you have, but have seen it more times than I can count), teaches them ANYTHING.  By the time you do that, they have totally forgotten what happened.  Not weaves, but one that can bite you in the bu##:  putting a dog back on a contact, from the bottom.  If they miss it, go back and do the whole thing.  I've seen dogs in competition seem to miss a contact; handler puts them back on; and in fact, the judge didn't see a miss!  OR they actually DO hit it, handler hesitates (thinking, maybe, did he or didn't he?) and dog puts himself back on! Instant fault.  And while i'm on a rant (sorry....):  let's say there's a tunnel/dogwalk discrimination.  Course says take dogwalk, but dog takes tunnel.  Handler brings dog back around to the discrimination.  Dog again takes the tunnel.  At this point, the dog has no idea there's even a dogwalk there!  Solution:  Put the dog BACK through the tunnel, and turn to the dogwalk.  Voila!  It's really hard for a dog with any momentum at all to do a U-turn back to the tunnel.  

Sorry for the hijack. Good luck!

diane

[beachdogz]

Diane

OMG....wow...do not apologize.  What great training info!!  Thank you for being so specific on what you would do and would not do.  Good example of why these boards are worth their weight in gold.  The training information here is invaluable.  Thanks for taking the time to write all that out!  I am again excited to get to class next week and see what the poles bring.

[alligande]

In general I train mistakes, in competition I carry a toy (our rules allow an unseen toy) and will train and reward then leave. A fault is the same as an elimination as far as I am concerned so choosing to be eliminated I think is good for the future. There are exceptions to this I have running contacts and generally have no idea of their success so don’t train them in competition. 
in training I always repeat a mistake, either his or mine