Persistent Difficult Training Problems

[diane allen]

There's one sentence that makes this all seem funny - not bad funny, just odd. "Also, he always did the same thing with tunnels and weave poles and the A-Frame." If you're meaning that he "loses it" around those obstacles - it's more than just that the jump is going to cause it. Sounds like something that went on at the initial agility classes.

 

Is this right?

[Root Beer]

Yes, he "loses it" around those obstacles.

 

If I put a dowel between two chairs in my house and he figures out that it's something to jump over or run under, he "loses it". It seems like there's some "trigger" that agility equimpent seems to set off in his head.

 

I don't know how this started exactly. I guess it was in his initial agility classes. It was over three years ago and it's tough to remember exactly how it all went. It seems to me that one day he was a very compliant 1 year old trotting through the tunnels and sailing happily over jumps and the next his eyes were popping out and he was "throwing fits" at the sight of the equipment. I'm sure it wasn't that immediate and I know that something happened, but I don't know what.

 

One thing I know is that the people who taught at the place where I used to train (not where I am now) definitely didn't know what to do any more than I did and so the behavior got reinforced inadvertantly. I'm not blaming them, by any means, but that is how it went.

 

Whether it has been permanently and unchangeably ingrained in his brain or not, I guess, remains to be seen.

[laurie etc]

I just caught up on this thread. My ?Cash? reacted the same way around agility equipment at our training site. (He's the one that my training partner is now training for obedience, rally-o, flyball and eventually will go back to agility with.) I switched to herding and tracking with him, because I could see that what he was doing (extremely similar to Speedy's description)was actually feeling severe performance stress - triggered by being in the vicinity of the agility equipment. He still has slight anxiety just being in the training building, not even near equipment. Long story, but his behavior was to NEVER be able to hold a stay near any equipment, like his butt had helium in it. He seemed to love doing the obstacles, but as his anxiety level would rise he would run big "outruns" around the equipment to relieve his stress. Weird thing was, he had been a very talented agility dog - probably had some of the fastest contacts and weaves out there, but after some ?training? by someone else for a period in his life, his adrenaline and anxiety went "through the roof" whenever he saw equipment. He could "stay" anywhere else with lots of distractions, even around sheep at a long distance without stressing. I'm not a quitter, but with my crazy lifestyle, I just found it easier to do things with him that didn't cause him so much stress, that he loved as well. I'm not suggesting you give up on Speedy, just that you look at it from a slightly different angle. The jump may be causing him to "flashback" to a stressful period in his training. You need to re-introduce it in a boring, matter of fact environment. I like Deb's idea. No pressure, just heeling past it, sitting by it, doing stays near it; at home, and where you train. Only don't ask him to jump it yet (if he offers it on his own and remains calm, that's OK). Let him feel OK about being around it, without the pressure, then when he isn't anxious, try for a jump- maybe through the standards without a bar up, then gradually raising it. Every time he does anything calm around the jump, praise and reward him calmly. It could take a long time. But you should be able to work him thorugh it if you progress systematically and back off at signs of stress.

[punkrockbc]

Sorry I don't have any advice, there has been So much good advice given already! Your boy is a perfect example of how lovably quirky BC's are... I admit I laughed a little, at your description it sounds like he's in the best hands possible, and you're making some progress. I wouldn't give up, as long as Rally-O is still fun for you and him.

 

Personally, I do think it sounds like he's stuck on the first few Agility lessons ~ maybe it was the sheer over-stimulation of his first Agility experiences that triggers him to turn all neurotic now? I can honestly say that Border Collies do NOT easily forget anything. Gonzo also becomes skittish about the trick or obstacle he's being trained to when I over-praise him, for some dogs too much excitement just seems to freak them out.

[zenotri]

Root Bear,

 

I just typed an enormous reply, describing the similaries between one of my dogs & Speedy & all the stuff we did to work on it & the results...then lost it!

 

So just going to give a short idea for you to try:

 

Teach him a command that means to go through your legs, then try having someone hold him on one side of a jump, fairly close to it. You go to the other side, again close & give him the command through your legs. Hopefully what this will do is give him little room for other options/behaviours & get him focussed on a trick he really enjoys. If you get any success, it is a starting point to increase distance & position.

 

Sorry, short response, but basically yes, I have a dog who started out exactly like this, just absolutely insane around agility equip, but calm otherwise. I perservered with agility & managed to finally, with the help of a very experienced BC agility person to get him working on my terms.

 

Vickie

[Shoofly]

I don't know diddly about agilty and stuff really but i do know stock work and what i think i might would try is a drop dead down on this dog, chin on the ground, and leave his butt there until he looks calm and then let him calmly go on with what you were doing. It might take a loooooong time on the first ones but i'd keep him down until his adrenaline had calmed some. When you see his adrenaline edging up, drop him in place and leave him there until he calms. Your demeanor would need to be very calm and matter of fact during all of this, no happy yippee let's play kind of release. In effect, he gets a reward (a calm release from the down) for relaxing.

 

Like i said, i don't do agilty or obedience but in stock work, it pays to think about and work with a dog's adrenaline levels. A crazed dog with adrenaline rushing through him isn't going to learn anything, so best to stop and let those levels drop and then try again.

[Root Beer]

Wow Wow Wow - so many different tactics to try! I appreciate all of the responses.

 

There are so many things to consider:

 

Is desensitization the key?

Is it getting him under control when he goes bonkers and "loses his mind"?

Is it confusion on his part that requires re-training?

Is it an unchangable mindset that resulted from his early days of agility training?

 

From reading all of your replies, most of the suggestions seem to take it back to one of those possible scenarios. Or, maybe it's a couple of them. Maybe he needs to be desensitized and retrained? Or maybe he can be retrained, but will always be a bit nutty because of his past experience?

 

And I would say that among people that work with me with Speedy, I hear the same range of possiblities.

 

I have decided to draw up a plan of action. It's not etched in stone, by any means, but at least it might help me figure things out better.

 

In addition to having the jump sitting around the house where he has to go over it sometimes for desensitization purposes, I'm going to try a combination of re-training and control work.

 

For a couple of days, I have put him in a down-stay where he can see the jump. I set a target on the other side of it and once he is calm and under control, I send him over. I meet him on the other side and call him to heel (as we need to do in Rally) and then I do it again.

 

What I'm hoping is to communicate two things to him. 1) He will get to go over the jump when he is calm and paying attention to me. 2) When I say "jump" and give the hand cue, he is to run straight to the bar and jump over.

 

Eventually I will remove the target, but for now having it there gets him to jump it instead of circling it or running up to it, stopping, and running back to me.

 

We do that just a few times and then I move the jump to another area and we work on some other things - which hopefully shows him that after working with the jump, we don't go nuts.

 

I am fairly confident that he will calm down some and be able to keep his focus with the jump at home. I am dubious as to whether or not he will ever be able to transfer that to other locations.

 

But I'm going to give it a shot!

 

Thanks again, everyone, for your input!

 

We shall see.