Training an off switch

[TravelerBlue]

Looking at some high drive puppies. The owners say that judging by the parents, the pups may not have an off switch. They have a second litter, also very active parents, and they say these pups will have an off switch.

Question: Can most high drive dogs be trained to have an off switch, if trained well, or is it just kind of out of the question for some dogs?

[chene]

I can't imagine a situation in which you couldn't train a dog to have an off switch. Typically when I hear something like that it's just lazy training on the owners' part. To be honest I'd be wary of a breeder who explains their dogs' behavior that way. But that's just in my experience. Maybe dogs who can't be trained to have an off switch do exist. I don't know how they would possibly make good working dogs though...

[JohnLloydJones]

Not sure that I like the terminology, but even the most active and high drive dogs can learn to take it easy and relax when they're not "on the job". In fact, one of the characteristics I've always associated with border collies is their ability to be calm and relaxed off duty.

[denice]

I can not speak for non working lines of border collies but every dog and every litter I have ever had is well behaved. They all have plenty work and play time and all come inside and are quiet. I have never "trained" it per say it is just what we do. Oh sure the littler can get the zoomies all running through the house playing at 5/6/7 wks but that lasts for 20 min and they are out like a light. I have a small house, and I mean small, not over 900 sq feet and I can have every border collie inside, at times I have a litter that can be 12 plus dogs. They all find their spot and lay down.

 

I think more often than not a dog is 'allowed' to be silly or simply not given the mental and physical outlet it needs when people claim not having an off switch. I have seen dogs train owners pretty well to cater to their whims. I was over a friends years ago and her dog kept asking to go out and then it would want in and then out and then, drove me crazy. I asked her how long it took him to train her to do that, she just looked at me. Honestly she didn't think about it, didn't realize how often she was getting up. It started with house breaking as a pup and she was afraid not to let him outside a bunch as a young dog and simply became a habit - for both of them.

 

There is a saying with horses that it takes a lot of wet blankets to teach a young horse there is a time to work and a time just to be calm and sensible. Meaning if you work them till they are hot and tired they learn to conserve their energy till needed and not be silly. A dog is no different, if they have adequate play and work time they will self regulate if they are smart.

[Maralynn]

JMO but I wouldn't get a border collie from a breeder who said that they wouldn't have an off switch.

I know a variety of high drive working dogs in SAR and all the good trainers have dogs with off switches.

[CptJack]

I think a lot of people do train the insane behavior, but the reverse is that they aren't training/rewarding/teaching the time and place to be calm.

 

I've seen it more often than I can count, and it usually starts with someone being told, in some form or another, that a tired dog is a good dog. Which is kind of sort of true, but not when they don't train but instead strive to keep their dog too tired to misbehave - and never actually teach it house manners. The dog, of course, gains stamina from the constant exercise and needs more and more to get to that tired state, and also becomes totally used to constant exercise.

 

That said, it took my GSD mix until he was 18 months old to LIE THE HECK DOWN in the house. Literally, until he turned 18 months the only time he lay down and slept indoors was when crated. Otherwise, he would just... pace. He got reasonable exercise and training, didn't do anything bad, just could not settle to save his life. Before then, you'd tell him to lie down and he'd lie down and just... vibrate and be constantly alert. It was just a downstay for him; he could NOT relax to save his life for quite a while.

He has since gotten over it, but he was a weird, restless, dog.

I wouldn't even call him all that high energy, though he was and is energetic. Mostly just... restless.

[Maralynn]

FWIW, I don't expect an adult "off switch" until they're an adult. My youngster was close to 8 m/o before he settled on his own. Before that he had mandatory rest sessions in his crate.

[geonni banner]

I find that , though exercise is good and necessary, some people go overboard. If my dogs seem antsy for whatever reason, I just have a training session with them. Getting them to figure out something new is a guaranteed sleeping pill. 10 minute training session and they're out like a light. Once a day, sometimes twice a day.

[Root Beer]

I have raised two Border Collie puppies and they were very different creatures when it came to off-switch.

 

Speedy had no off switch. He truly was the stereotypical hyper crazy Border Collie as a puppy. It wasn't even just a matter of not being able to settle - he would literally run into walls at times!

 

When he was young, he never wanted to quit, no matter what he was doing. One time we were swimming in the Pamlico Sound and we lost his frisbee in the water and he would not stop looking for it! Thankfully, we found it, and he was satisfied. We bombed Agility because he had no ability to switch himself off and relax when he wasn't working and when he was working, he was so amped up, he couldn't pay attention to what he was doing.

I can honestly say I didn't make him that way. We didn't spend a lot of time revving him up or anything - it was him.

 

I worked HARD for YEARS to teach him to be able to pull himself together. We made tons of progress, but there were still limits to what he could do. Granted, as a house dog, he did learn to settle by the time he was 2 years old and he was very well behaved. But as a performance dog, it took until he was well into his later years before he started to mellow out.

 

Bandit . . . WOW!! He has an off switch. He has impressed me with it over and over. He's driven and he can move, but he can snap right back into even-keel mode in an instant. Both in regular life and sports the difference is night and day.

 

One could make the case that I knew what I was doing with Bandit much more than with Speedy. That's true. Had I raised Bandit first and Speedy second, there are elements of structure that Bandit wouldn't have had that might have helped Speedy a lot more and sooner.

But temperament is temperament and there is an enormous difference. Bandit has the ability to do things - and has had them all along - that it took years and endless work for Speedy to accomplish. I don't mean skills - I mean the way he can use his brain!

 

I would adopt a rescue "without an off switch" in a heartbeat, knowing that I was taking on a dog who would need help that I can give.

But if I were purchasing a puppy, I would walk away from a breeder selling dogs "with no off switch". It's always a gamble, of course. But if the breeder knows that is what he or she is producing . . . I'd consider that an issue.

[CptJack]

I think Molly was also about 8 months old before she figured out how to settle down on her own and I think for a while it was just that she knew she could either be sane in the house, chew a bone and relax or she could be crated. She's good in a crate, but in crate vs couch, the couch won.

Thud just... was really slow to mature, in EVERY way.

ETA: For my off switch and just plain hyperactivity are different. Off switch, for me, is an issue of training. If the breeder is saying that the puppies, as young babies are unable to settle/he doesn't expect them to? I'd walk away. To me that's less a dog that needs to learn an off switch and more a dog with a basic wiring issue. It can be worked with, but it's not something I'd pay for the privilege of, and isn't related to energy level at all.

 

(Interestingly, Molly has a great off switch. She still ramps up too hard to be effective at a lot of performance related things and will not quit on her own. But when I tell her to quit, she'll settle down and take a nap. Do with that as you will).

[Root Beer]

I think Molly was also about 8 months old before she figured out how to settle down on her own and I think for a while it was just that she knew she could either be sane in the house, chew a bone and relax or she could be crated. She's good in a crate, but in crate vs couch, the couch won.

 

Thud just... was really slow to mature, in EVERY way.

 

Bandit was 6 - 7 months old before he would settle on his own, too, but I didn't consider that "lack of off switch" so much as he was a baby and wasn't mature enough to use it to settle himself.

 

[waffles]

I would also add that I would question why they have two litters on the ground at the same time. Knowing nothing other than what you have said,I would be concerned what they're breeding and why. Are these working stock dogs?

[GentleLake]

I would question why they're even doing the breeding that they expect the pups may not ever have an off switch. What's desirable about that, to anyone?

 

I start teaching a dog to settle down when I ask it to (aka an off switch) as soon as it comes into my home, whether it's a wee pup or an adult rescue. I do this by quietly, calmly praising when the dog settles on its own. In the case of a puppy, it that's usually when it's played itself out and crashes, as puppies do. Too few people think to let a dog know that this is desirable behavior by rewarding it and only pay attention to them, especially to puppies, when they're active.

 

This early reinforcement of being quiet as as a desired behavior makes it much easier to "teach" a dog to settle down on cue later on.

[geonni banner]

I would be curious about the breeding of people's dogs re: off switch. Working, sport or other. Also, as an "Evil Correcting Trainer" I don't always do an unrelated training session to settle my dogs. Sometimes I just say "Hey! Settle Down!"

 

They do.

[mum24dog]

I've found that just being boring usually does the trick. Not responding to demands for attention.

 

More about what you don't do than what you do.

[JohnLloydJones]

I've found that just being boring usually does the trick. Not responding to demands for attention.

 

More about what you don't do than what you do.

That's a nice way of putting it.

[Gloria Atwater]

For all the reasons named above, I'd question what this breeder is doing or planning for. Why deliberately create a litter that they think won't have off switches? Why have two litters at once? If one of the parents is known to be hyper or lack an off switch, why not breed them to a mate that is calmer?

And what are these people breeding for? Are they working dogs? Sport dogs? Do they trial or have a farm? For what purpose(s) do they advertise their pups?

~ Gloria

[Gloria Atwater]

That said, while I have seen any number of hyper border collies - have two pretty busy girls myself - they all seem to have the ability to just chill when nothing is going on. My one-year-old is shot from guns any time anything is going on, but right now she's snoozing at my feet. Unless the dog is seriously squirrely or of a notoriously hyper breed, I think that once maturity begins to kick in, most dogs can be taught an off switch. It may just take diligence and perseverance to make it a habit and pattern.

~ Gloria

[juliepoudrier]

What Roxanne said. I would be running from this breeder.

 

J.

(P.S. Is anyone else having trouble with the quote function?)

 

I would question why they're even doing the breeding that they expect the pups may not ever have an off switch. What's desirable about that, to anyone?

[Gideon's girl]

I haven't been able to quote for months.

 

Gideon came with a good off switch at 8 weeks old, but I had to tether Micah for the first 8 months and sometimes step on his leash to enforce lying around doing nothing. One day the light just came on and he has had an off switch ever since. Now, he's more laid back than Gideon.

[alligande]

I just had a house guest without an off switch she was exhausting, my dog hid he just could not cope with her. I am guessing she is this way because of a number factors, she comes from a well known sport breeder, she went to a sport home where the focus was agility and not being a pet, and now is living in a home where is she is learning to be a pet, but they are far more permissive than me. I think if she lived with me she would have figured out how to chill, which would also help her agility performance as she gets so wired she can't think.

I could not imagine living with her.

[Root Beer]

I used to dog sit a Border Collie who could not stop shoving toys at you if there were any to be had. I literally had to put all of the toys in the house up on top of the fridge when I wanted a break! Then he was fine. He wouldn't pace or search for toys or anything, he would settle. But if there was even one toy - even one of those toys that my dogs never touched - he was shoving it at you! And he didn't just shove it at you and leave it there - he would poke it into you every few seconds.

 

Even Speedy was never like that. He learned pretty young that when I dropped the ball on the floor next to me instead of throwing it for him, the game was over and he should go entertain himself or settle down.

[juliepoudrier]

I just had a house guest without an off switch she was exhausting, my dog hid he just could not cope with her. I am guessing she is this way because of a number factors, she comes from a well known sport breeder, she went to a sport home where the focus was agility and not being a pet,

 

I can't help but think that such dogs must be relatively unhappy. Imagine never being able to just chill out and relax. And really just because her whole purpose was agility (depressing notion in itself that she was apparently just a tool for someone's ego--isn't agility at its core supposed to be about doing something fun with your pet?). Sad. SMH.

 

J.

[Root Beer]

I don't get the whole "keep a dog amped up" for the purpose of Agility concept. The vast majority of the dog's day at an Agility trial is spent either in a crate, or a car, or in some other "relax while waiting" fashion.

 

Seems, you would want a dog who would chill nicely, amp up before the run, run, then relax again. (If you want to amp the dog up, which I don't, but some people do).

 

And I like a dog who will chill nicely, chill before the run, run, then relax again.

 

I know that what you see in the ring isn't necessarily what the person lives with. When Speedy was going through his overstimulation difficulties in Freestyle competition, what you saw in the ring was nothing like what he was at home (low-key and super easy to live with).

 

But I don't see why anyone would want an Agility dog to be crazy at home. The dog still has to hang around waiting most of the day at a trial . . . seems that would be a skill to hone nicely in everyday life.

[CptJack]

Kylie has amused and surprised a few people at agility trials. She's crated while we're working at the trial, but mostly she spends the day asleep on my lap. She gets taken for a few walks, uses the warm up area a little bit, but mostly she just curls up in my lap and sleeps.

But she turns on REALLY nicely for the run itself, goes fast, has fun, comes off happy, gets her reward - and then gets back in my lap, snuggles in and goes to sleep.

Molly's way overstimulated and needs some serious work before we trial on other issues, and she does look like a mess while we're there but she spends most of her time at home just asleep. Oh, she gets exercise and training, but that's 2 hours most days, with a little more playing with another dog. The other 20+ hours she's just out on the couch, or maybe chewing a bone.

And I LIKE IT THAT WAY.