medic09 Posted June 17, 2015 Report Share Posted June 17, 2015 I can't see a real downside, but figured I'd ask. Golan is two years old now. He was born on a ranch not far from here. He's an excellent companion dog. He displays some very typical Border Collie behaviors. I'm thinking of taking him for instinct testing to one of the herders in the area who offers that. I don't know what I'll do with the info, because I don't really have any plans to go into herding (much as I would like to). I'm just curious for now. The only work I'd considered him for was SAR, before I was ill almost two years ago; but I haven't recovered my strength and stamina to be able to keep up with a dog working scent in the mountains. Is there a reason not to do the instinct testing? Will I just frustrate my dog if, as I expect, he responds with interest to sheep; and I don't continue on that path to train and work him? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urge to herd Posted June 17, 2015 Report Share Posted June 17, 2015 I got Gibbs from a working dog family, members of this board as a matter of fact. He comes from working lines, and was trained to work up until about 2 and a half or so. He took to training, but with not enough passion, so he came to me as a pet dog. I took him a couple times for stock lessons here, more for me to learn than him. I learned that stock work is not for me right now, maybe not ever. Anyhoo, SuperGibbs appears to me to be quite content. He's not restless in the house, settles when I need him to, loveslovesloves Nosework classes. And has quite the fan club amongst my friends. I would surmise that a dog who had done nothing but stockwork for several years who had to be pulled from that for whatever reason might be heavily affected, but I doubt if a few minutes on sheep would frustrate or pain a dog deeply. Particulary if that dog is living a full life doing general doggy things, like tracking, etc. I hope your healing proceeds and you recover fully. Ruth and SuperGibbs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted June 17, 2015 Report Share Posted June 17, 2015 There are people who can evaluate a dog's potential but the standard "instinct test" is, in my opinion, pretty worthless as it is very limited and I've seen too many dogs "pass" who really had no true potential. At his age, he should likely "turn on" if he is going to, although some dogs may take several exposures to do so. If you are not going to go anywhere with this, I'd probably pass on it. Why "awake" the instinct in a dog that will not have the opportunity to proceed? It would be like giving you a taste of something that you could not ever have again. Since you don't have a reason to find out if he's going to turn on to stock and demonstrate any potential, why do it at all - and why tantalize him with something that's not in his future? He has no idea what he is "missing" and perhaps it's kindest to keep it that way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debbie Meier Posted June 17, 2015 Report Share Posted June 17, 2015 Save the sheep, if you have no plans on pursuing stock work, I would suggest taking a pass in the best interest of the sheep. Someone brought a dog to a clinic this past weekend, dog offered three things, chase & bark, follow the sheep and disinterest. The owner was simply curious. Really wasn't much there to see, but the owner thought it was great. If it had been up to me, when I found out that the owner had no intentions on doing anything but to satisfy curiosity I would have discouraged the adventure. Sheep almost crashed the fences when dog went to chase which lead to the dog needing to be corrected. Don't really see the point in having subjecting either the sheep or the dog to the situation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smalahundur Posted June 17, 2015 Report Share Posted June 17, 2015 I am with Debbie on this one; if you are not intending to continue working stock it does not really justify the stress you are exposing the sheep to. And starting a young dog, (unless the dog is completely useless and uninterested) always means stress to the sheep. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CptJack Posted June 17, 2015 Report Share Posted June 17, 2015 Seconding or thirding or something along those lines. I have too much respect for the sheep as animals to subject them to my idle curiosity. If I was in a position to pursue herding seriously, I'd be all over it, but since I'm not I don't want to make the sheep deal with my young, green dog. Or my dog to corrections and stress and that level of excitement for what amounts to... nothing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
highway61 Posted June 17, 2015 Report Share Posted June 17, 2015 A question to all the "me too" responses...what if the OP goes for the instinct test (with little hope as already admitted) and it turns out the dog is a natural and OP finds its thrilling and pursues taking it to the next step? I would guess that's how a some folks have gotten into trialing, no? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CptJack Posted June 17, 2015 Report Share Posted June 17, 2015 My response was talking about *me*, honestly, not OP. I know that I do not have the time or money to pick up herding. I'm not mildly disinterested or apathetic or unsure or secretly hoping to be able to pursue it. Even if I loved it and Molly excelled at it, I can not. So for me it's a lot of stressing dog and sheep for no gain. When I said I didn't want to compete at agility I knew in my heart that if I liked it and my dog was any good I'd find a way to carry on, I just didn't want to admit it aloud, because I didn't want pressure or to be disappointed. Herding (for me) is different. I *can't*, no matter what that test showed. If OP is on the fence and has the time and money to continue, that's another matter . But doing the testing KNOWING you can't carry on seems fairly pointless to me and bad for sheep. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mum24dog Posted June 17, 2015 Report Share Posted June 17, 2015 Most people on your side of the pond dabbling in stock work don't come across sheep on a daily basis. Why should it be bad for a dog to be introduced to sheep if it lives its life away from the stimulus of the woolly beasts? And isn't it the responsibility of the person running the session to minimise the stress on the sheep? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debbie Meier Posted June 17, 2015 Report Share Posted June 17, 2015 That is the hard question to ask yourself, if the dog shows talent would the OP proceed? Some are intrigued enough to be able to say they would, others know their personal limitations and know that they would not. The person at the clinic this weekend said straight out that they would not regardless of what the dog did. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mum24dog Posted June 17, 2015 Report Share Posted June 17, 2015 I didn't read the OP's intentions as not intending to pursue it; he sounded pretty open minded to me and prepared to consider following whatever whatever path the experience might indicate. I think that's a more realistic approach than setting ones heart on it without knowing whether it's a possibility. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geonni banner Posted June 18, 2015 Report Share Posted June 18, 2015 Most people on your side of the pond dabbling in stock work don't come across sheep on a daily basis. Why should it be bad for a dog to be introduced to sheep if it lives its life away from the stimulus of the woolly beasts? And isn't it the responsibility of the person running the session to minimise the stress on the sheep? Not true here. Seen too many videos of dogs - all breeds - charging around running stock, biting stock, crashing into stock, all with cheers and evident satisfaction all around. "Trainers" included. Thanks for that, Caesar Millan. Yeah, I'd love to know if my dog has potential. What then? She's almost seven and I'm on SSI, with mobility issues. What would be the point - even if everything went perfectly? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
medic09 Posted June 18, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 18, 2015 Thanks for the responses so far. The inclination NOT to do it is what I expected. That's why I asked. I, too, am inclined not to do this unless I'm able to follow through more afterwards. Truth is, I hadn't thought of the sheep; just of my boy. The only opportunity I see for follow-up, if Golan shows promise, is to pay to have him learn every week or so on someone's sheep. There are a couple of ranches around here that offer themselves as 'training sites'. I have to say, I'm leery of even the sound of it. Doesn't sound right for the sheep, and it isn't going to make my dog a proficient and genuine stock dog. I'd never even heard of such a thing. My wife thinks this would be great for the dog (and me). Like doing some sport, but better. If we were a bit younger and in a different position, I might seriously like to take on small-time herding. But that's not going to happen, and it seems off to me to just bring my dog round to someone to learn and herd their sheep 'for fun'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debbie Meier Posted June 18, 2015 Report Share Posted June 18, 2015 Yes, Caesar Millan has been promoting stock exposure to help with behavioral issues, allowing the dog to follow their bred in instincts.... folks wanting to come out following his suggestions also are completely put out if you interfere in a effort to protect your sheep. sore subject. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
medic09 Posted June 18, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 18, 2015 Hadn't heard about the Caesar Milan thing. He should be muzzled. We certainly hadn't been thinking along those lines. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mum24dog Posted June 18, 2015 Report Share Posted June 18, 2015 Never too late to start. I knew someone who started trialling in her 70s. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
medic09 Posted June 18, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 18, 2015 Never too late to start. I knew someone who started trialling in her 70s. Yep. That's what I'm afraid of. Stranger things have happened. But I don't see any easy or obvious way at this point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloria Atwater Posted June 19, 2015 Report Share Posted June 19, 2015 ......... My wife thinks this would be great for the dog (and me). Like doing some sport, but better. If we were a bit younger and in a different position, I might seriously like to take on small-time herding. But that's not going to happen, and it seems off to me to just bring my dog round to someone to learn and herd their sheep 'for fun'. Unless you have a professional trainer willing to guide you and your dog, your gut instincts are spot-on about avoiding those "training sites." But if you're honestly not considering trying the sport, I'd say let it pass. As someone above said, yes, it's the trainer's job to minimize stress on the sheep, but if the dog comes on with a lot of excitement and desire to chase, there's going to be stress. And I don't see any point in subjecting sheep to that if there are no plans to pursue the work for a purpose. The dog will never know what he's missing, after all. ~ Gloria Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GentleLake Posted June 19, 2015 Report Share Posted June 19, 2015 Hadn't heard about the Caesar Milan thing. He should be muzzled. Better yet, how 'bout debarking him? It's the one exception I'd make to banning the practice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gcv-border Posted June 19, 2015 Report Share Posted June 19, 2015 ^^^ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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